[xytras]

My room is about 12X20 with vaulted ceiling 20 feet high about, with solid hardwood for flooring. I'm looking for a sub in the 2-4K range that is powered and has an auto EQ and mic that will configure itself. I'm not 100% on Fronts/Rears/Surround/Center, but I'm leaning on going with Emotiva Speakers or maybe Paradigm. Emotiva Amp, waiting for the new 7 Channel Class H. And with an Integra DHC-9.9 pre-amp. 75% Movies and 25% Music. I'm pretty new to home audio so any information will help.


Thanks,

Cory

 

[mojomike]

There are a few subs with built-in auto-eq, but if you are willing to go to external auto-eq, it does open you up to subs that will give you far better performance for your money. What's your feeling about the overall sub size and appearence? Did you want just one sub or multiple subs?

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike /forum/post/16964756


There are a few subs with built-in auto-eq, but if you are willing to go to external auto-eq, it does open you up to subs that will give you far better performance for your money. What's your feeling about the overall sub size and appearence? Did you want just one sub or multiple subs?

I was looking at the Submersive but I didn't see the AutoEQ/Mic for it. Overall size doesn't really mean much ... within reason. I'm not sure about multiple subs in different places I'm still very new to home audio and would have no idea how to set them up correctly. Thanks for the fast response.


I was thinking maybe a JL Fathom F113...

 

[hometheatergeek]

You do know that you will have Audyssey MultEQ built into your Integra DHC-9.9. That will help to eq the sub. With that large of a room you really should consider two subs. They will help smooth out the room response. For the price of the JL you could get a ULS-15 Dual Drive from HSU at 2200 dollars delivered. Read some of the reviews. They have some of the best real wood veneer that looks good in a family room environment. See what they look like by clicking My Current System.

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by xytras /forum/post/16965072


I was looking at the Submersive but I didn't see the AutoEQ/Mic for it. Overall size doesn't really mean much ... within reason. I'm not sure about multiple subs in different places I'm still very new to home audio and would have no idea how to set them up correctly. Thanks for the fast response.


I was thinking maybe a JL Fathom F113...

There is no AutoEQ/Mic for the Submersive. Mark Seaton has favored the QSC DSP 30 @ $590 for the Submersive. A very good EQ but nothing automatic about it.

http://www.activemusician.com/item--MP.DSP-30


You can get the automatic AntiMode 8033 for about $350 delivered and it is fully automatic.

http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...cts/8033B-0002


There is also the SVS EQ-1 which while not 100% automatic (since it requires you to hook it up to a computer for set-up), can EQ TWO subs independently.

http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm


The Velodyen SMS-1 is still a viable option.

http://www.velodyne.com/products/pro...5&sid=820p333h



If you are thinking the J L Audio ARO is a good EQ, you may be expecting too much compared to the SVS EQ-1. The only quibble I have with the EQ-1 is that you cannot set a house curve with it.


A pair of HSU ULS-15s with the SVS EQ-1 would be a potent combination for less than the cost of a F113.

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek /forum/post/16965185


You do know that you will have Audyssey MultEQ built into your Integra DHC-9.9. That will help to eq the sub. With that large of a room you really should consider two subs. They will help smooth out the room response. For the price of the JL you could get a ULS-15 Dual Drive from HSU at 2200 dollars delivered. Read some of the reviews. They have some of the best real wood veneer that looks good in a family room environment. See what they look like by clicking My Current System.

WoW, I didn't know the Integra DHC-9.9 did that, good news! What you think HSU ULS-15 Dual Drive vs Submersive? I did like the piano black though.

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/16965214


There is no AutoEQ/Mic for the Submersive. Mark Seaton has favored the QSC DSP 30 @ $590 for the Submersive. A very good EQ but nothing automatic about it.

http://www.activemusician.com/item--MP.DSP-30


You can get the automatic AntiMode 8033 for about $350 delivered and it is fully automatic.

http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/ep...cts/8033B-0002


There is also the SVS EQ-1 which while not 100% automatic (since it requires you to hook it up to a computer for set-up), can EQ TWO subs independently.

http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm


The Velodyen SMS-1 is still a viable option.

http://www.velodyne.com/products/pro...5&sid=820p333h



If you are thinking the J L Audio ARO is a good EQ, you may be expecting too much compared to the SVS EQ-1. The only quibble I have with the EQ-1 is that you cannot set a house curve with it.


A pair of HSU ULS-15s with the SVS EQ-1 would be a potent combination for less than the cost of a F113.

Some Great Info thanks! Do you think the Integra DHC-9.9 Has a good enough EQ on it?

 

[hometheatergeek]



Quote:
Originally Posted by xytras /forum/post/16965226


WoW, I didn't know the Integra DHC-9.9 did that, good news! What you think HSU ULS-15 Dual Drive vs Submersive? I did like the piano black though.

I have heard both but not in the same room at the same time. They are both great performers. It comes down to 1 sub versus two. They both have 15" drivers. If you go with either one your listening habits will change to 50% HT/50%

music. They both do well with music. But like I said before you should consider two subs.


But the best advice I can give is to try and call Pete at HSU or Mark Seaton at Seaton on Monday. Both will not try to sell you more than you need.

 

[spyboy]

I don't know enough about the 9.9 to comment on it for subwoofer EQ.


My guess is that it does not have the power of the SVS EQ-1, and almost certainly can't EQ TWO subs independently.


Here is a link to an entire thread about 2 HSU ULS-15 VS 1 Submersive.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1162780

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek /forum/post/16965281


I have heard both but not in the same room at the same time. They are both great performers. It comes down to 1 sub versus two. They both have 15" drivers. If you go with either one your listening habits will change to 50% HT/50%

music. They both do well with music. But like I said before you should consider two subs.


But the best advice I can give is to try and call Pete at HSU or Mark Seaton at Seaton on Monday. Both will not try to sell you more than you need.

Yea! sounds like it's a battle between HSU and Submersive. Hmmm.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Going with two subs you might not even need a EQ with the Audessy that comes with the Integra. I would look into Room EQ Wizard (REW) from hometheater shack, its a free download, all you would need is a laptop or a desktop you could move into the listen room, a radio shack spl and a couple of cables and you would be able to see exactly how the subs interact with the room. It would only cost about $70 for a REW setup, you may find you don't need a eq. A eq is only good if you have large peaks in the listening seat, if you have nulls at the listening position a eq will do nothing for you. If you want something very simple the Velodyne SMS 1 is also good for finding the best spot for the sub

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/16965308


I don't know enough about the 9.9 to comment on it for subwoofer EQ.


My guess is that it does not have the power of the SVS EQ-1, and almost certainly can't EQ TWO subs independently.


Here is a link to an entire thread about 2 HSU ULS-15 VS 1 Submersive.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1162780

Nice. Thanks for the Vs

 

[hometheatergeek]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 /forum/post/16965321


Going with two subs you might not even need a EQ with the Audessy that comes with the Integra. I would look into Room EQ Wizard (REW) from hometheater shack, its a free download, all you would need is a laptop or a desktop you could move into the listen room, a radio shack spl and a couple of cables and you would be able to see exactly how the subs interact with the room. It would only cost about $70 for a REW setup, you may find you don't need a eq. A eq is only good if you have large peaks in the listening seat, if you have nulls at the listening position a eq will do nothing for you. If you want something very simple the Velodyne SMS 1 is also good for finding the best spot for the sub

That's a good point about multiples, gtpsuper24 but I think at this point the OP might not be ready for REW. He did mention being new to the hobby. Lets not get him in to deep just yet, he is just starting his research.

 

[gwsat]

xytras -- I have owned Hsu subwoofers since the early '90s and currently have a VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. Thus, I am biased in favor of Hsu. That said, I have read a lot about the Seaton submersive here in recent weeks and it sounds very impressive. The only downside I can see to the Seaton is that the last time I looked, there was still a significant delay in filling orders. Hsu, though have all of their subs in stock and can ship immediately.


Let me add my vote in favor of the notion that you can do a very good job of equalizing any powered sub into your system by simply plugging it into your receiver's subwoofer out connection and using the receiver's built in equalizing capability to equalize your sub or subs with your other speakers. You can refine the receiver's settings by getting a moderately priced SPL meter from Radio Shack and further adjusting your speaker levels with the help of the meter. Good luck!

 

[Mark Seaton]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat /forum/post/16965543


xytras -- I have owned Hsu subwoofers since the early '90s and currently have a VTF-3 MK3 Turbo. Thus, I am biased in favor of Hsu. That said, I have read a lot about the Seaton submersive here in recent weeks and it sounds very impressive. The only downside I can see to the Seaton is that the last time I looked, there was still a significant delay in filling orders. Hsu, though have all of their subs in stock and can ship immediately.

With some added help and a new cabinet supplier for the veneered subs, we're now delivering SubMersives in 1-3 weeks from the time of order, sometimes sooner for some finishes. As noted, if immediate shipping is highly desirable, others will be better choices... for now.

For those not interested in investing lots of time to learn how to measure, I recommend options such as the SMS-1, Antimode 8033, and SVS's Audyssey based subwoofer EQ, the AS-EQ1.

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton /forum/post/16965829


With some added help and a new cabinet supplier for the veneered subs, we're now delivering SubMersives in 1-3 weeks from the time of order, sometimes sooner for some finishes. As noted, if immediate shipping is highly desirable, others will be better choices... for now.

For those not interested in investing lots of time to learn how to measure, I recommend options such as the SMS-1, Antimode 8033, and SVS's Audyssey based subwoofer EQ, the AS-EQ1.

Hi Mark


Can you comment on the importance of the time domain correction in the newer (than the SMS-1) EQs? Around here it seems that more than a few people consider the SMS-1 outdated because it cannot correct in the time domain.


Thanks In Advance

 

[Mark Seaton]



Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/16966067


Hi Mark


Can you comment on the importance of the time domain correction in the newer (than the SMS-1) EQs? Around here it seems that more than a few people consider the SMS-1 outdated because it cannot correct in the time domain.


Thanks In Advance

There does seem to be a lot of speculation around here about that.


I can understand the attention being given to efforts to look more at the lingering energy at low frequencies. Meridian and Lexicon both have given this attention to this in their room EQ efforts from a few years back.


I haven't had time to get into the exact details of what the Audyssey system is doing, and I expect they prefer to keep some of the finer details to themselves. What I have seen suggests to me that they are measuring and defining the EQ efforts based on the LF energy vs. time. I have not seen any indication that they are direct correction vs. time such as with impulse response correction where functions can be created that are variable over time.


My understanding, which Ed Mullen or Chris from Audyssey could probably correct or confirm, is that they are looking at both the LF decay times and the total energy at multiple locations, with which they use their proprietary algorithms to determine a target amplitude (and possibly phase) response which they then implement using FIR based filtering which does allow for zero-phase response EQ, as well as targeting a given phase/group delay response.


The big difference here should be in the ability to manipulate magnitude and phase/group delay separately, ie changing one while not affecting the other if you choose to. More conventional response EQ emulate analog filters (assuming DSP based) using IIR / minimum phase filters. Such filters have direct correlations between changes in magnitude vs. phase.


Of course some have argued (ie Welti & others at Harman) that at low frequencies room issues we can or should be correcting for are already minimum phase in nature, where accurate response EQ does greatly improve the time domain behavior. I do know that not every blip at low frequencies is minimum phase, but those cases also tend to be ones which vary greatly from one listening location to another.

 

[gwsat]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton /forum/post/16965829


With some added help and a new cabinet supplier for the veneered subs, we're now delivering SubMersives in 1-3 weeks from the time of order, sometimes sooner for some finishes. As noted, if immediate shipping is highly desirable, others will be better choices... for now.

For those not interested in investing lots of time to learn how to measure, I recommend options such as the SMS-1, Antimode 8033, and SVS's Audyssey based subwoofer EQ, the AS-EQ1.

Mark -- Thanks for the update. As noted in my earlier post, the feedback here strongly supports the notion that your SubMersives are terrific subs.

 

[xytras]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton /forum/post/16966188


There does seem to be a lot of speculation around here about that.


I can understand the attention being given to efforts to look more at the lingering energy at low frequencies. Meridian and Lexicon both have given this attention to this in their room EQ efforts from a few years back.


I haven't had time to get into the exact details of what the Audyssey system is doing, and I expect they prefer to keep some of the finer details to themselves. What I have seen suggests to me that they are measuring and defining the EQ efforts based on the LF energy vs. time. I have not seen any indication that they are direct correction vs. time such as with impulse response correction where functions can be created that are variable over time.


My understanding, which Ed Mullen or Chris from Audyssey could probably correct or confirm, is that they are looking at both the LF decay times and the total energy at multiple locations, with which they use their proprietary algorithms to determine a target amplitude (and possibly phase) response which they then implement using FIR based filtering which does allow for zero-phase response EQ, as well as targeting a given phase/group delay response.


The big difference here should be in the ability to manipulate magnitude and phase/group delay separately, ie changing one while not affecting the other if you choose to. More conventional response EQ emulate analog filters (assuming DSP based) using IIR / minimum phase filters. Such filters have direct correlations between changes in magnitude vs. phase.


Of course some have argued (ie Welti & others at Harman) that at low frequencies room issues we can or should be correcting for are already minimum phase in nature, where accurate response EQ does greatly improve the time domain behavior. I do know that not every blip at low frequencies is minimum phase, but those cases also tend to be ones which vary greatly from one listening location to another.

Consfused lol. Thanks for the response Mark. I really like the positive responses about your Subs. Do you think a Submersive is overkill for a 12X20 room with vaulted ceilings? This room also extends out to the kitchen, and into the upstairs den. I'm still confused on the EQ thing a bit, I'm fairly new to the HT. I can afford to put in an extra EQ but is it worth it, especially if the Integra DHC-9.9 already has one?

 

[gtpsuper24]

I know your new to the HT hobby, but you won't know if a EQ is worth it untill you find out how the sub(s) interact with the room. The easiest way to get the best out of your subs is the subwoofer crawl, go to youtube and search subwoofer crawl. That will give you the best sound as far as placement goes. I wouldn't get a EQ untill I know that I needed one, your room may have nulls, which is dropouts in a freq range, in that case no EQ is going to help you there. With the money you plan to spend you should really read up on the REW I was talking about in a earlier post. Its a little tough to get set up, but there are alot of knowledgable people on this forum that can help you step by step. It's much cheaper to go with REW than to buy a $700 EQ and finded you could have done without.