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Discussion Starter #1
I have been looking around the forum for a while, but there are so many different designs and so much information, it is very confusing about where I should start.


Right now I have a Rythmik F15 and love how it sounds for music, but it leaves me wanting more for movies. It is supposed to be really good down low, and REW graphs I've made show it's pretty flat down low, but when it plays low notes, it seems to just move a lot and shake things, but I can't hear or feel it. My room layout isn't the best, so that's probably part of it, but could DIY be a better option? I was also thinking about another F15.


My room is about 3400 cubic feet, including the kitchen, dining room, and hall the living room is connected to. I listen to problem a little more HT/games than music, but it's a good mix. Not too concerned about size, it would be nice if the width was less than 20" though.


I haven't heard a good ported sub before, and I'm not against it, it just seems like sealed subs would have a higher sound quality compared to a similar ported sub from what i've read.


Budget would be $500-800 if this would be a good option, and I'm just looking for some guidance/suggestions towards some ideas or information. All I have now is an Onkyo RC-370 receiver.


Thanks
 

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sounds like you need to move some more air, but don't want your sound quality to go to poop.


if you can't do an infinite baffle...


solution: Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF or Dayton DVC 385-88 for the drivers.


put each driver in a 4-5 cubic foot sealed cube (enclosure doesn't have to be a cube) and use *four* of them.


power them with an ep2500/4000 or similarly inexpensive amplifier.


a little over your budget, but seems like what you are shooting for.


good luck.


edit: looks like the dvc's are on special pricing right now at parts express, so that is what i would go with. the can work in a cab as small as 3 cubes btw. four drives and amp should be around $800 or just a hair more.
 

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Discussion Starter #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20971524


sounds like you need to move some more air, but don't want your sound quality to go to poop.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. I will look into those. Can't do IB though, I live in an apartment for now.


A little more is fine. If I were to get another F15 (if I could find another used one), I would be in for $1200 at least.


My living room isn't actually that big though, there's no way 4 boxes could physically in it. Could I go with two higher quality/output subs instead?


Here's the layout:



And is all I would mainly need is boxes, subs, and the amp?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I just tested, and the F15 put out 106dB at my couch with a 38Hz test tone at -10 on the receiver, 6dB hot. It sounded like it was getting near its limit, I think. Then I went and tested my car (pair of ported 12" subs) and maxed the Radioshack SPL meter out at 126dB before the song really even started. Maybe I am just expecting too much? Maybe I should go ported? I'm not sure now.
 

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Your car is a smaller space, and has more PVG, or pressure vessel gain. With your open house layout, it will not be easy to get 126dB at the listening position down low, if that is what you are looking for.


If you only have one real spot for another sub, make another of what you already have, the Rhythmik. Easy 6dB right there, and the possibility to get good sound at more than one seat.


If you need more than 6 extra dB, you need to add drivers, just like LTD has suggested, or build a bass horn, like lilmike's Cinema F20 (do a search), or Bill Fitzmaurice's THT, or Oklahoma Wolf's Wolfhorn......If you want lots of dB, it will take a lot of space or $$ to do it.....pick one.


If you build a horn, you lose the lowest bass (lower than 15-20Hz). But you gain lots of output.


There are tradeoffs everywhere in audio, just like everything else.


Run your test tones, and think about what spl level and frequency range you need, and people here will be able to give you better options....


10-15Hz really is all about shaking the room. It inspires a real feeling of pressurization and dread. When used properly in a soundtrack, it can be really menacing. 15-20Hz is your general couch-shaking and wall-shaking freqs, and above 20Hz you are moving other things including your insides. ~50Hz is your chest cavity resonance.....I have never been able to monitor below 20Hz with any authority, so I cannot comment.


Please remember that >90% of bass in movies is above 20Hz, and >90% of bass in music is above 30Hz. But this forum is about getting that last 10%.


I will warn you: 126dB at your listening position usually means a lot more than that near the sub. This can crack drywall and cause real damage to a house that isn't built to take it....



JSS
 

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the password is "vertical". :)


you can put 4 subs in the footprint of one if you wish...


that is roughly to scale for 4 x 15" drives in a sealed enclosure of 12 cubic feet. it would make more sense to create two smaller cabs so that you could experiment with placement, but, properly built and powered, the tallboy will kick some ass. once you get a taste, you might even end up going for a second. ;-)


back in the day when infinity actually meant infinity, they employed a similar bass setup.


their 6 x 12's would be about the same as your 4 x 15's. use good drivers and simple pro amps and you will have the same bass as this infinity $100k reference system.


that's diy!





 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yeah, while I would love to be into the 120dB range, that's not my goal, especially in an apartment; just a comparison to the car, I know no home theater setup could rival a decent car setup SPL wise. Sub 20Hz probably isn't a huge goal either, as it takes lots of space and take away from higher frequency output. Flat down to 20Hz at least would be nice. An F15 driver and amp kit would cost $627 ($75 more than my used F15 actually).


Vertical is what I was thinking, as I don't care about the height much, besides getting too heavy to move by myself possibly. So what about 2 boxes with 2 15's? Or maybe 4 boxes stacked in 2's. Would it be worth spending more money on 2 better drivers, or 4 that you recommended, and how would sound quality compare to the direct-servo Rythmik?
 

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"So what about 2 boxes with 2 15's?"


perfect. there are several of those builds floating around.


"how would sound quality compare to the direct-servo Rythmik?"


any comment there is just likely to cause a bunch of flame wars. none are "crappy", so your room resonances will dominate the speaker properties among these choices. a room mode with a long decay is more likely to make a sub sound sloppy or slow than any of these three in a sealed enclosure. there are many builds and all are "proven".
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Any links to the builds? I tried looking through the master list and didn't see anything, and trying to search for it was unsuccessful. I spent an hour trying to figure out how to run WINISD unsuccessfully as well.


I was trying to figure out what the -3dB frequency response would be and approximate SPL's based on whatever box size.


And what would be the next step up in drivers? I would probably like to limit it to whatever can be run by an ep4000.
 

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"I was trying to figure out what the -3dB frequency response would be and approximate SPL's based on whatever box size."


that is as much influenced by the room as by the sub. i know that sounds "audiophilish", but that is just the nature of bass reproduction in the home environment.
 

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"I spent an hour trying to figure out how to run WINISD unsuccessfully as well."


yeah...it has a learning curve...however, once one masters it, it takes about 30 seconds to enter a drive and another 30 to optimize an enclosure.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Ok, so that box is a lot different. Pretty much just build a 9-10 cu ft box and separate the two subs in the middle, or run them in the same open space? The most difficult part looks like the bracing, and is what has shied me away from DIY before. That one is complex, and it seems like it would be really hard to build that and make it fit perfectly in the box on all 4 (or 6) sides. And did he use any screws, or just glue for everything?


I have only built small speaker boxes before, not big braced sub ones. Is there a thread or link to a quality box building guide? Many I have found while searching are kinda shady.


Thanks for all the help, DIY seems to be like it will be a lot more bang for the buck.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ok, I have been researching a lot and have come down to the RSS390 HO or HF?? I've read a lot of different things, such as the HF needs a large box and a guy at parts express said the HF is for vented systems while the HO is for sealed systems in a 3.3 cu ft box. He also said the HF uses a thinner cone that can buckle and pop under pressure, whereas the HO is has a heavier cone and can handle more power. But then the HF was recommended here, so is that what I should go for? It's hard to tell the difference between the two. I would guess the High Fidelity one would be for music and the High Output one would be for movies.

edit: I just read something saying the HO is the same as the HF, just with a higher cone mass and motor force to work in a smaller box (need more power). So I'm pretty sure I'd go with the HF's.


Then how do I power these. Can I hook an EP2500 up straight from my sub-out with some adapter (RCA to XLR or TRS?), or do I need to run it through an EQ or some other voltage adapter to get adequate output?


Then speaker hookups, would I hook two up at two ohms to each channel, or (distantly) wire all 4 together at 4 ohms and run it bridged (advantage to higher resistance?)?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 /forum/post/0


Ok, I have been researching a lot and have come down to the RSS390 HO or HF?? I've read a lot of different things, such as the HF needs a large box and a guy at parts express said the HF is for vented systems while the HO is for sealed systems in a 3.3 cu ft box. He also said the HF uses a thinner cone that can buckle and pop under pressure, whereas the HO is has a heavier cone and can handle more power. But then the HF was recommended here, so is that what I should go for? It's hard to tell the difference between the two. I would guess the High Fidelity one would be for music and the High Output one would be for movies.

edit: I just read something saying the HO is the same as the HF, just with a higher cone mass and motor force to work in a smaller box (need more power). So I'm pretty sure I'd go with the HF's.


Then how do I power these. Can I hook an EP2500 up straight from my sub-out with some adapter (RCA to XLR or TRS?), or do I need to run it through an EQ or some other voltage adapter to get adequate output?


Then speaker hookups, would I hook two up at two ohms to each channel, or (distantly) wire all 4 together at 4 ohms and run it bridged (advantage to higher resistance?)?

I think it's the opposite. hO being better for music while the hf is better for movies because it is able to play lower . Your best net would be to wire in series to an ep2500. This is how I wired my mfw's which are also 4ohm. Use winisd to figure out proper box size.
 

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Discussion Starter #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 /forum/post/20977076


I think it's the opposite. hO being better for music while the hf is better for music.

I don't know now, read it both ways I think.


Wiring 2 2-ohm loads would be easier, didn't know if sound quality would differ wiring it 4-ohm (and what size speaker wire should I use for that much power, 1000W/wire?).


And I have no idea how to use winisd to determine box size. I have tried for hours, and I can't even get it to accept driver parameters that I copied directly from another thread showing them in the program.


To connect the EP2500 to my AVR's sub out, do I need an adapter or some kind of voltage converter to work between them?
 

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"Then how do I power these. Can I hook an EP2500 up straight from my sub-out with some adapter (RCA to XLR or TRS?), or do I need to run it through an EQ or some other voltage adapter to get adequate output?"


that depends on your receiver. if the output voltage is sufficient, you are good to go. if not, you may need something in between the receiver and the amp to step up the voltage. mic2200 was the old solution.


"Then speaker hookups, would I hook two up at two ohms to each channel, or (distantly) wire all 4 together at 4 ohms and run it bridged (advantage to higher resistance?)?"


parallel two drives for 2 ohms. put that on each channel.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 /forum/post/0


I don't know now, read it both ways I think.


Wiring 2 2-ohm loads would be easier, didn't know if sound quality would differ wiring it 4-ohm (and what size speaker wire should I use for that much power, 1000W/wire?).


And I have no idea how to use winisd to determine box size. I have tried for hours, and I can't even get it to accept driver parameters that I copied directly from another thread showing them in the program.


To connect the EP2500 to my AVR's sub out, do I need an adapter or some kind of voltage converter to work between them?

Use a RCA to XLR cable. Just delete parameters and press tab on the ones it tells you to. It will adjust slightly but winisd is fussy. Use 12 gauge speaker wire.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I get 8 errors when entering the parameters from Dayton's website, and I don't know how to fix it.


Could someone who knows how run them if they have a chance?
RSS390HF
RSS390HO


After that, my last questions should just be about building the box: what bracing I should use; do I need a jig saw, router, or both to cut holes; how to make a recessed hole for the driver.


Thanks for all the help, this should destroy my F15 for around the cost of a new one.
 

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Whatever your top error is:


Highlight that box and press backspace and then tab.


You should only have around 4-6 errors now. Highlight the next and press backspace and then delete.


Or just enter the bare minimum of parameters that it takes to model and tab the rest.
 
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