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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 /forum/post/20984712


Considering you have no idea what scratchy means I would say no...you can go to guitar center and they will match pricing on an ep4000 from any online authorized dealer. I usually get them for $300 there with the price match.

Yeah, that is pretty much the going price. I got my brand new EP4000 from an authorized reseller for $299 shipped 2 months ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Is there a list of authorized Behringer internet dealers? I couldn't find it on their website.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
What/who is HF?
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Ah. Yeah, that is very tempting. They were tempting before, but they need such a big box compared to the DVC's. It doesn't seem like the difference between the two drivers would be much, compared to the big size requirements between the two?
 

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Discussion Starter #47
That price is so good and they seem like the best driver in that range, I think I'll try to convince the girlfriend to give up even more of our small living room... How would a smaller box affect the sound? What would the difference between an 8cf or 6cf box be compared to a 10cf box (I know 6cf is probably way to small, but why? I'm in class right now, but I dont' think box size made much of a difference in winisd, SPL-wise at least.)? Would polyfill help a smaller box or be a replacement for displacement?
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Ok, I am pretty sure I'm going with the HF's, but have a list of final questions before I can get everything going:



I am limited to a tower design to save floorspace, so should I do a dual opposed tower, put both drivers on one side (do they each need their own sealed chamber?), or just build each sub its own box?



How would 8cf box compare to a 10cf box?



With 500W going to it, it's hits it's excursion limit at 36Hz. Can this be right? I've read you have to limit the power (150W) to avoid overexcursion. I thought this driver was good to go low, but now I'm finding you have to limit the power to avoid bottoming out in the mid 20 -30 Hz's?



Would polyfill make a smaller box sound like a bigger one? Should I use polyfill (or pillows or cheap walmart equivalent) no matter what, how much?



Do I need to line the sides of the box with something different (fiberglass insulation)? Attach with spray adhesive?



How can I cut a recess for the sub? I have a router, but no circle guide plate (or bits yet). Can I just cut the outer baffle bigger and mount the driver to the inner baffle, or would that defeat part of the purpose of the double baffle?



How do I adjust the phase between the two boxes with the EP2500/4000? Do I need some EQ? What would the cheapest solution be that would raise the signal voltage too, there’s a DSP1124P BFP for sale for $80? (Have Audyssey MultiEQ XT in AVR now) Would using both sub outs on my AVR to the amp help with voltage?



How do I hold the sub together, glue (what brand?) and drywall screws with a ¾” threadless gap at the top?



If I predrill screw holes, then glue and screw the boxes, do I need clamps? (It seems like the screws would hold the panels tight while the glue dries, and I have no clamps. Big ones aren’t very cheap)



What kind of bracing should I use (window, 1x1, 2x2, 2x4, 1-2” dowels) and could you describe what it should look like in the box? (lots of controversy about the amount of bracing required)



What sealant should I use? Some silicone caulking or some brand I read somewhere that expands a little. P2, or something like that.



What is the easiest/cheapest way to round the edges of the box (I have a router, jig saw, and sander)?



Is 12ga wire big enough to carry 800+ watts 15 feet? 30 feet?



Is there a list of Behringer authorized internet dealers? Somewhere to get it $300 shipped if I can’t find a good used one.



What all do I need to order/purchase? Amp, subs, MDF, glue, sealant, gasket tape, drywall screws, terminal cup, RCA to XLR adapter, what kind of wire terminals to connect to the sub?



I know it's a lot of questions, but hopefully they will be the last ones before I get this project started. Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 /forum/post/0


Ok, I am pretty sure I'm going with the HF's, but have a list of final questions before I can get everything going:


I am limited to a tower design to save floorspace, so should I do a dual opposed tower, put both drivers on one side (do they each need their own sealed chamber?), or just build each sub its own box?

Build 1 box and they can share the space


How would 8cf box compare to a 10cf box?


Most likely fine but I'm not at my computer and am unable to model at this time


Would polyfill make a smaller box sound like a bigger one? Should I use polyfill (or pillows or cheap walmart equivalent) no matter what, how much?


I use polyfil from michaels which is $4-5 for 20ozs...use 1 lb per cubic ft


Do I need to line the sides of the box with something different (fiberglass insulation)? Attach with spray adhesive?


I use polyfil and spray adhesive


How can I cut a recess for the sub? I have a router, but no circle guide plate (or bits yet). Can I just cut the outer baffle bigger and mount the driver to the inner baffle, or would that defeat part of the purpose of the double baffle?


Jasper jig $40 from parts express


How do I adjust the phase between the two boxes with the EP2500/4000? Do I need some EQ? What would the cheapest solution be that would raise the signal voltage too, there's a DSP1124P BFP for sale for $80? (Have Audyssey MultiEQ XT in AVR now) Would using both sub outs on my AVR to the amp help with voltage?


If they are both in front it won't matter. To reverse phase just switch the + and -. Look into minidsp


How do I hold the sub together, glue (what brand?) and drywall screws with a ¾" threadless gap at the top?


Just glue is fine...PL adhesive. You can countersink screws but not necessary. Also use nail gun with 1 1/4 small finish nails if you can but not necessary.


If I predrill screw holes, then glue and screw the boxes, do I need clamps? (It seems like the screws would hold the panels tight while the glue dries, and I have no clamps. Big ones aren't very cheap)


You need tons of clamps...no ifs ands or buts. At least 4...with only 4 you can only glue one piece on at a time.


What kind of bracing should I use (window, 1x1, 2x2, 2x4, 1-2" dowels) and could you describe what it should look like in the box? (lots of controversy about the amount of bracing required)


Windows are the easiest.


What sealant should I use? Some silicone caulking or some brand I read somewhere that expands a little. P2, or something like that.


Silicone but I just use glue


What is the easiest/cheapest way to round the edges of the box (I have a router, jig saw, and sander)?


Router with a roundover bit


Is 12ga wire big enough to carry 800+ watts 15 feet? 30 feet?


I don't know I just always use 12 guage.


Is there a list of Behringer authorized internet dealers? Somewhere to get it $300 shipped if I can't find a good used one.


I don't know you will probably have to ask each.


What all do I need to order/purchase? Amp, subs, MDF, glue, sealant, gasket tape, drywall screws, terminal cup, RCA to XLR adapter, what kind of wire terminals to connect to the sub?


Gold plated binding posts from parts express $8


I know it's a lot of questions, but hopefully they will be the last ones before I get this project started. Thanks


All answers are within your quote. I will run winisd tomorrow I just need to know the amp you plan on running and how many drivers and boxes you plan on using. It sounds like you want to use 2 drivers in each box. Two towers with forward facing drivers?
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Thanks for all the help, and yeah, I want to use two drivers in each box. Not sure if I should put both on the same or opposite sides? I'll probably just start with one tower though; the extra supplies are starting to add up pretty fast. $30-40 just for polyfill for each box. I'll use and EP2500 or 4000, probably wire one to each channel at 4 ohms at first, then each tower to each channel at 2 ohms when I build the second one.


Screws really won't hold the panels together well enough while the glue dries though? It seems like it would hold better than clamps.


Would there be any issue just mounting the drivers to the inner baffle, cutting a larger hole in the outer one? I will try to make a guide from a piece of wood, but my router is missing a mounting bolt (old and only $10). The Jasper one is expensive and might not even fit. The hole doesn't have to be perfect does it, a jig saw should be fine if I can't get the router setup to work?


Another concernt was with 500W going to it, it's hits it's excursion limit at 36Hz. Can this be right? I've read you have to limit the power (150W) to avoid overexcursion without a HPF, losing 5dB output in the process. I thought this driver was good to go low. Unicron-WMD has 8 in sealed boxes and gets almost 120dB at 10Hz though running two EP2500's, so I don't know.



 

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Discussion Starter #51




Here's the HF, HO, and DVC all hitting x-max in the mid-teens compared to a 500W HF in yellow. Based on this, it looks like the DVC is actually the best sub. I don't know anymore.

I don't know how UNICRON-WMD could get 118dB at 10Hz either, it must be room gain. Modelling 8 HF's in the same 33.6cf box with 2000W going to them (hitting x-max at ~8Hz), it gets under 108dB, and his subs are separated. It seems like one EP2500 would power these fine then, and less power would be required to get down to the mid single digits he gets.


Graphs can't tell you about sound quality though, or how they'll actually handle in a room.


Is the HF really this crippled by it's excursion limit? What would the next level up be in SQ?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Referring to my last couple posts, I PM'd Unicron-WMD, but he has been on yet. People are recommending the HF for some reason, so I'm not understanding something correctly.


From the models, it looks like an HF has 3dB less output and requires almost twice the box size compared to the cheaper DVC's to reach x-max below 20Hz. So why are the HF's better? What am I missing?


The HF sale ends Thursday.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradthebold88 /forum/post/21003321


Referring to my last couple posts, I PM'd Unicron-WMD, but he has been on yet. People are recommending the HF for some reason, so I'm not understanding something correctly.


From the models, it looks like an HF has 3dB less output and requires almost twice the box size compared to the cheaper DVC's to reach x-max below 20Hz. So why are the HF's better? What am I missing?


The HF sale ends Thursday.

Lower distortion with better SQ. Don't fixate on spl.
 

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Quote:
Is 12ga wire big enough to carry 800+ watts 15 feet? 30 feet?

Recently, I was wondering what I needed for 4000Watts/4 ohms @ 40 feet. I just used what I consider the speaker wire bible... http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable


as long as you are not doing 2ohms or less then 12ga is fine at 30 Feet. Im not sure 100/800 or even 4000Watts matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
OK, 12 gauge should be fine then, no run should be over 30ft for now.


Sound quality is most important, but SPL is close behind. My F15 sounds good now, and it's a lot smaller than these boxes would be, so it would make no sense to replace the F15 with something that's going to be equally as loud.


So, yes, it looks like 200 watts is about all I can use with these? With 400W going to 2, it shows an SPL of 116.3dB at one meter.


Using a HPF at 16Hz lets me use 750W for the pair instead, just touching x-max at 22Hz, giving me over a 2.5dB bump in output. That seems like a much better plan? What would be the cheapest decent EQ that has a HPF and would fix any low voltage problems (if I have any) if this is a good idea? The minidsp looks like it would do what I want, and is highly recommended. Would it fix a low voltage issue though, and which one would I want?
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Does that sound like a good plan? Would I just want the 2 x in 4 x out unbalanced one? And can I just leave it on in the open, setting on my tv stand? The boxed one doesn't have selectable input sensitivity, so it seems like the other one would be better.


Then how many cables would I need? My AVR has two sub outs, so would I want to run two cables to the minidsp, then two rca to xlr cables to the EP4000? Or just 1 cable from the AVR to minidsp to amp? Or split one of the cables?
 

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Discussion Starter #59

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi /forum/post/21008314


I bet the HOs go on sale after the HFs come off, they like smaller boxes.

Smaller boxes would be nice, the HF's are supposed to have better sound quality though. And running 4 off of an EP4000 at just over 400W/channel, the HF's are 2dB louder at 20Hz. Even at 650W/channel with the HO's, the HF's are 2db louder at 20Hz (though the HF's are louder over 40Hz).


If sound quality was the same, I'd rather have smaller boxes. Lower distortion and better sound quality are more important than box size though.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
It seems like stuffing the box with polyfill (lowering the Q), just makes the excursion problem worse, so it seems like I wouldn't want to do that? Looks like some people just line the walls, and it looks like polyfill doesn't do much for lining the walls if anything? Fiberglass insulation seems to work better, but what is the right kind and where could I get it?


Basically, what's the best way to stuff or line the box, hopefully not creating a bigger excursion limit.
 
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