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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Dan,


Thanks for the response. In regards to your questions, I have a few windows in the room but don't mind getting black-out curtains or something else to block out all the light. So, for the time being, I guess I have a small ambient light issue but feel it is controllable.


As far as the rainbow artificats, I don't really know at this point if I am sensitive to it or not. I just starting researching these and haven't really seen any of the them in action yet. I've read on Projector Central that the DPX-1's color wheel was sped up reduce the rainbow effect...I assume from your opinion that it hasn't really corrected the problem all that well?


I will be watching predominately DVD and some HDTV...I watch very little NTSC so that is not a big issue for me. I will also be using a Progressive scan DVD player for input.


The Sanyo looks like a good projector but I was put off a bit by the 4:3 aspect ration being that I don't watch much NTSC TV. Have you noticed any of the screen-door effect on your Sanyo? I've gotten a price on the Yamaha for $7500 and the HT-200 for $5550 at a B&M...do those prices sound competitive? What are your opinions on the Sony VPL-VW10HT? Also, any other projectors in the price range that may be worthy of consideration that I have not mentioned?


I am planning on the Grayhawk as you suggest and am looking into a screen approximately 100" in the 16:9 format. Do you have any ideas on the cost of the Grayhawks and should that size be okay for my 9 x 18 room? Thanks very much for your input!





 

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When you say that you are looking at DLP and LCD because of setup issues and ease of use does that mean you have ruled out DILA or just CRT ???


If you haven't considered DILA there are drawback.. $1k for 1000 hour bulbs (approx possibly street at 7-800 ??) noise and heat are all issues but...


It seems that a well calibrated DILA on Greyhawk screen has all of the digital benefits and great color / greyscale and acceptable black levels... If I had 10k it would either be 3 chip DLP (and boy have I just missed out on a couple of deals) or G15 DILA...


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There are some very nice LCD's and DLP's (assuming you don't see the rainbow effect), but if you really want a great picture in terms of brightness, black level, contrast, color and overall comparability to watching a movie at a good theater, go with a DILA (such as a JVC G-15). Yes, there are issues such as noise and bulb cost. But if you were to live with all three technologies for a little while, as I did, I think in the end you will conclude that the picture is what matters most and what determines your overall satisfaction with front projection. And the DILA has the best picture for a digital projector at this point. (Plus you got guys like Mark Hunter developing things like Dilard that can enable you to tweak the DILA to virtual perfection.)


[This message has been edited by smitty (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Phat,


I only really ruled out the CRT displays. I've read a bit about D-ILA but am not as familiar with it as DLP and LCD. Is the technology as mature and is it in the same ballpark price wise?


The 3 chip DLP's would eliminate the rainbow effect if I am correct but I thought these were very expensive. What models are you familiar with in my price range? Thanks.
 

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3 chip DLP is kinda expensive but bargains come and go... The thing is they will be second hand and then you have parts and bulb worries... On the bright side these beasts seem to be very overengineered and so I am assuming that the presentation 3 DLP market should be more reliable... Bulbs are up to 1.5k for 1000 hours (please I saw a post about 700 USD bulbs recently I would be interested to bookmark where)...


Let me tell you what I have missed in the last month... First there was a a 3 chip XGA resolution Ampro Alice 5200 in the AVS classified... It lasted ages and stopped me sleeping at nights (why was no one buying 60k 300 hour used machine for 4k) but my high usage pattern put me off... It took 3 weeks to sell but sell it finally did...


So I trolled around a day or two ago and turned up the same beast for 2.5k USD with a working bulb and a 400 hour history !!! That's a 60k machine that has depreciated to 2.5k after 400 hours of use !!! in working order !!! I would have pulled the trigger on that but it was also sold in the last week or so but I am now keeping eyes open...


I did see a 3 DLP on projector central at about 7k or so but its only the real steals I would partake in as I am averaging over 2200 hours in a year and at $1.5 / hour that obviously adds up...


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[This message has been edited by Phat Phreddy (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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Phat Phreddy:


What are the approximate dimensions and weight of a 3 chip DLP?

Do you need three bulbs, or just one?


Thanks.




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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Phat/Smitty,


Any ideas on the street price of the G15? Retail indicates $17,000 which is more than I want to spend. Thanks.
 

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1 bulb and these things are big (I think the Ampro is 80+ pounds !!!) head on over to projector central and check out Ampro and Electrohome 3 chippers...


Don't get me wrong these kind of big ticket risks on second hand boardroom stuff that was sold by now bankrupt companies is not for everyone but having had two near misses in one week I thought I would document the unbelievable depreciation that these seem to have suffered... Plus some pretty rave reviews have made me interested... They seem to be DILA bright (or more) at about half the price (or less)...


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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob D:
Hi Dan,


I will be watching predominately DVD and some HDTV...I watch very little NTSC so that is not a big issue for me. I will also be using a Progressive scan DVD player for input.


The Sanyo looks like a good projector but I was put off a bit by the 4:3 aspect ration being that I don't watch much NTSC TV. Have you noticed any of the screen-door effect on your Sanyo? I've gotten a price on the Yamaha for $7500 and the HT-200 for $5550 at a B&M...do those prices sound competitive? What are your opinions on the Sony VPL-VW10HT? Also, any other projectors in the price range that may be worthy of consideration that I have not mentioned?


I am planning on the Grayhawk as you suggest and am looking into a screen approximately 100" in the 16:9 format. Do you have any ideas on the cost of the Grayhawks and should that size be okay for my 9 x 18 room? Thanks very much for your input!
Since you asked about the 10ht and your room configuration sounds similar to mine I thought I would respond. I have a 10ht configured with a 110" grayhawk and primarily watch HDTV and DVDs and I adapted an unused room in my house to be the HT room which is ~ 10'W 23'L 10'H. I can't tell you how this projector visually compares to other projectors because they would have to be matched up in my environment and my needs. I went with the 10ht because of the native 16:9, noise level and reasonable bulb life/cost. At that point in time it was the only game in town. You will get lots of opinions on why one projector is better than an other projector and a lot of folks like to bet on their own horse so take things with a bit of salt. As you learn more start inventorying what is important to you, here were some of my drivers.


Based on the width of your room I would recommend a dark neutral color to prevent light from reflecting back off your walls and ceiling and washing out the image. I picked up a 12% gray card from a photography shop had color matched paint made. This will suck up a lot of the reflected light and not reflect one color more than another one back on the screen. I know it sounds intense but and I was concerned on how it would look but it looks fine and it gives the room a more appropriate ambiance when the lights are on, sort of that big theater depth feel when you are going to find your seat. If I remember correctly the Grayhawk has a coating which helps prevent reflected light from washing out contrast.


Before I purchased the 10ht I tried out one of the 4:3 office DLP projectors and one of the things that pushed me over was my room configuration. I would have gray light spillover from the black bars on my ceiling and where my equipment and speakers were going to be placed if I were going to configure the projector to throw 16:9 at 110". Masking my ceiling and equipment was not a practical thing to do. One of the real advantages of the native 16:9 configurations is you have constant height of 4:3 and 16:9 material. With lenses and video processors you can achieve a "native" 16:9 but that will require additional expense and effort. There have been a lot of posts recently regarding getting the panamorph to work properly with the different projector makes and models.


Noise level of the projector was a real concern for me. with no way of providing duct work for hushbox ventilation, with out opening up walls and getting into a lot of permanent changes that I was not willing to do. Because of this I required a quite projector and the 10ht was, and maybe still is, one of the quietest. I don't know if all DPLs suffer from this but the DLP I tried had two kind of noises, the lower pitch fan and then a higher pitched tone from the color wheel. I could get over the fan noise but the higher pitched tone from the wheel was very distracting. I also saw the rainbows and after experience them IMO you really need to know if you and your primary audience is sensitive to the projector and rainbows. If you are sensitive you could be a very unhappy person and if you are not at least you covered your bet. Some people have real problems with screen door. It exists on all digital projectors and on LCD it is the largest. I don't find it an issue and unless I was sitting very close to the screen or had over corrected vision I don't understand how you could. But it seems to be a real problem for some so you should check this out too before you choose.


Bulb life/cost, I know folks love the DILA projectors and I have never seen one in action, but at $1000 a bulb or even $800 that seemed like more than I wanted to spend. The 10ht was $500 - $450 and is rated for up to 2000 hrs, that was more reasonable to me.


There are more 16:9 projectors on the market now and spec wise they are better at contrast and black levels than the 10ht. I have applied some of the tweaks such as color correction filters and using a grayhawk to improve my black levels and contrast. It sounds like the newer 16:9 LCD systems do a fine job out of the box with contrast, I am curious how well my color corrected 10ht compares to the newer projectors. An owner of a Sanyo plv-60 was suppose to bring his projector over to compare the two but I am still waiting for that to happen.


If you have any other questions drop me a line. You might want to check out http://www.thebigpicturedvd.com/cgi-...conf=DCConfID1 they have a very active sony and sanyo community.


Regards,


Brian



[This message has been edited by btmoore (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for the info Brian. I have been seriously considering the 10HT for some time now. Seems like a very good deal for the money however I've been a bit apprehensive concerning the screen door issue and the dead pixel issues. Have you had a problem with either? Also, if one receives the projector without any dead pixels, can they go bad later in the life of the projector?


Are you seeing any screen door effects? How far are you sitting from the screen? Also, I know that manufactures give a proposed bulb life, but what have you experienced in actuality? Have you spoken to others regarding the life of their bulbs? Thanks for your help.



[This message has been edited by Bob D (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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Street price for the G15 is usually in the $9K range. Most people don't know but the dealer cost on this unit just went up quite a bit, however, retail stayed the same. You will not find them as cheap as you used to unless someone has old stock that they got when the prices were cheaper.


Thanks!


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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob D:
Thanks for the info Brian. I have been seriously considering the 10HT for some time now. Seems like a very good deal for the money however I've been a bit apprehensive concerning the screen door issue and the dead pixel issues. Have you had a problem with either? Also, if one receives the projector without any dead pixels, can they go bad later in the life of the projector?


Are you seeing any screen door effects? How far are you sitting from the screen? Also, I know that manufactures give a proposed bulb life, but what have you experienced in actuality? Have you spoken to others regarding the life of their bulbs? Thanks for your help.



[This message has been edited by Bob D (edited 09-04-2001).]
Screen door: Well I took a couple of pictures for you. I slightly defocus to mitigate screendoor. This does not affect sharpness at the macro level only at the pixel level


This is the best I can do with my camera it is fairly accurate in representing my screen door. This was taken using AVAI IRE 100 pattern. The color difference comes from the camera automatic adjustments with the yellow tape measure being placed in frame.

http://home.pacbell.net/btmoore/scrndoor_ruler.jpg

With ruler

http://home.pacbell.net/btmoore/scrndoor_noruler.jpg

No Ruler


Take this will salt as these digital cameras can not accurately demonstrate this as well as if you were looking at IRL.


Here is a picture of the sharpness pattern focused on the more detailed bars.
http://home.pacbell.net/btmoore/sharpness.jpg


Dead and dying pixels: The first projector I received had 2 dead pixels one blue and one green. I exchanged the projector at no cost or restocking fee for one with no dead pixels. All digital projectors can have dead pixels. What ever projector you get make sure that the dealer will exchange the projector if you have any complaints. I used Medical Video Systems, they have a good rep with people purchasing 10HTs. As far as pixels dying over time, I have heard of some people having a pixel die on just about every kind of digital projector. I don't think there is any real public study on the subject, I am at 500 hours with no problems.


Seating Distance: I sit ~ 15 feet from the screen.

http://home.pacbell.net/btmoore/view_of_screen.jpg

This picture is taken standing in front of my seats.


Bulb Life: I am at 500 hours, I have only talked to one other person and they had ~1500 hours before it burned out. You might want to survey the folks in the sony forum


If you have not seen a 10ht here is mine with my make shift 40RCC filter attached.

http://home.pacbell.net/btmoore/the_10ht.jpg


Regards,


Brian





[This message has been edited by btmoore (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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With all due respect, you can't begin to set up a D-ILA for $10 grand as it requires all sorts of add ons to make it useful. And it cranks out major heat and noise, which means it either has to be in an exhausted box in the viewing room or in an adjacent ventilated room. D-ILA is hardly a good choice for someone who wants simple setup and operation. I think that is what Bob said in his initial posting.


All reports are the Sanyo PLV60/Boxlight 13 are considerably superior to the 10HT. They are brighter, have better contrast and black level. Apparently, Projector Central, a sponsor of this forum, has them advertised for under $5K. The 10HT is going to be replaced by the 11HT, and we may have some CEDIA reports here on it as well. But it is going to be priced $2-3K higher than the Sanyo so I'd be sure it represents a further step forward.


To this you should probably add a good screen and passable scaler like the Quadscan Elite. So you're up to $8500 with the cables to make a full setup.


I forgot to mention the new Sharp 9000 that will be shown at CEDIA and you can expect some very expert evaluations to be posted here within two weeks. This is a new-generation DLP with much reduced rainbow artifact. The Yamaha features a double speed wheel but the Selecos are using RGBRGB plus double speed, essentially eliminating rainbow. There have been several reports posted here that the Yamaha still has rainbow for the most sensitive. Apparently the Sharp also combines RGBRGB with double speed.


Give that Bob has some light, the 50% brighter output of the Sanyo 16:9 would be a real advantage. He'll also want to take a look at the new Seleco HT300 though it may initially be out of his price range, at about $12k.


Bob, here's the good news. Looking for and playing with one of these toys is really great fun. But the best feeling is when you finally get everything to click and you have this drop-dead movie-size picture in your house with a killer sound system to go with it.


Don't forget to run searches in this category for all the projectors you are interested in. This group is far and away the most savy bunch around when it comes to FPTV. If you can't find the answer here, there isn't one! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Dan


[This message has been edited by DanHouck (edited 09-04-2001).]
 

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Bob,


I have a SONY 10 HT that I am selling. It is 4 months old, in perfect condition, with NO dead pixels. There are 85 hours on the lamp. There are 32 months left on the SONY warranty. Please email me privately if you are interested.


[email protected]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DanHouck:


All reports are the Sanyo PLV60/Boxlight 13 are considerably superior to the 10HT. They are brighter, have better contrast and black level. Apparently, Projector Central, a sponsor of this forum, has them advertised for under $5K. The 10HT is going to be replaced by the 11HT, and we may have some CEDIA reports here on it as well. But it is going to be priced $2-3K higher than the Sanyo so I'd be sure it represents a further step forward.
I think you are correct about the projectors having better contrast out of the box. This is why the contrast correction fixes that have been developed for the 10ht have been so useful. hopefully in a few weeks I will get the chance to compare my color corrected 10ht with a plv60. There are few reports on the 11ht it has been slow coming to market in the US I have seen it for sale on ebay from an importer for $5750 so it is yet to be seen at what price it lands on the streets here.

Quote:
Originally posted by DanHouck:


To this you should probably add a good screen and passable scaler like the Quadscan Elite. So you're up to $8500 with the cables to make a full setup.
I can not speak for the Sanyo projectors but I have not felt the need for an external video processor like the quadscan for my 10ht. I use a Hughes e86 for DBS and OTA HDTV and SDTV, this box upconverts everything to 1080i, and a JVC 723gd for progressive DVD viewing. Perhaps I have tin eyes but I have not noticed anything that an external video processor would improve on my configuration. The vast majority of my DVDs are mainstream properly flagged titles so the 2:3 pulldown on the JVC is more than adequate and I am not sure how I feel about upconverting as the scaler in the 10ht appears to do a fine job and the image quality appears to be more a function of quality of the transfer.

Quote:
Originally posted by DanHouck:


Give that Bob has some light, the 50% brighter output of the Sanyo 16:9 would be a real advantage.
50% brighter is streaching it, the PLV-60 is speced @ 1200 lumen while the 10ht speced at 1000 lumen @ 16:9 and the Sony models have a option to be in cinema black mode which reduces the lumen output to I think 800. This is so you can adjust the projector better to the ambient light conditions and it has the added advantage of extending lamp life and reducing projector noise if you primarily use the black mode. Remember these are manufacture specs and may have no basis in the real world.


Regards,


Brian
 

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Well, I respectfully disagree with DanHouck re the setup of the DILA. While an external scaler is a nice luxury, and the noise and heat of the DILA are more of an issue than with an LCD or DLP, I have been using the DILA without a scaler and a hushbox for the past month. I previously had a PLV-60. In my opinion, the picture from the G-15 DILA without an external scaler was much, much better than the picture from the PLV-60. And I have not noticed the noise during any movies. A fan takes care of any heat issue.


Of course, these things are all matters of opinion and personal preference, but I shied away from DILA for many months because I had read repeatedly that you need a scaler and a hushbox with it. It was only when I concluded that the picture on the DLP's and LCD's were not satisfactory that I tried the DILA as a last resort. I fell in love with the picture and was thrilled to learn how much the scaler issue and noise issue had been overblown, IMHO.


Again, it's a question of what is important to you. To me, I care about the picture most and I don't like looking at screendoor like you find on the PLV-60, the 10HT, and other LCD's. To me, it is distracting during the movie and ruins the "illusion". There is no screen door at all on the JVC DILA's unless you are close enough to touch the screen.
 

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Since this is mostly for DVD viewing, the Seleco HT200DM is probably your best bet imho.


It doesn't require a scalar, or hushbox, and is very easy to use. Just feed it a prog. signal from your choice of dvd players, and go. The colors are unreal on this unit compared to any dlp I have seen, and the black level is pretty darn good (not crt perfect, but no projector is). Since you have control over ambient light, and don't need it as a tv, this is an easy choice imho. Also, it is priced much less than 10k, so you have money for a good Grayhawk http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Do a search here at the forum on the DM, and you will see lots of posts around 2-3 weeks ago. One person liked it better than the Sharp coming out...and bought it as a result.


Cheers,


Keith
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I just want to say that I really appreciate all the information you folks have been sharing. This is my first experience posting a question, although I have been reading here for quite a while. The knowledge conveyed is an incredible resource for those of us contemplating these fairly expensive purchases. Thanks again and keep the info coming!
 

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Hi Bob you have gotten some good info, but you really, really need to go look at any projector you want to buy before you buy it..


Now is a good time, because DLP projectors are about to take a big jump in resolution and elimination of the problems that many have had with DLP projectors in the past. Remember that most of the DLP projectors have been made and sold as boardroom presentation units, but lately Seleco, Dwin, Yamaha, Marantz and Sharp are making newer units targeted to the HT market. Also the newer LCD projectors seem to be better than the older ones as well.


Lemme give you my 0.05 on the projectors I have seen..


The LCDs have good color, fair black levels, and unfortunately a noticeable pixel structure.


The DLP's I have seen have outstanding color, terrific blacks, but also have a noticeable pixel structure.


The DILAs I have seen have flat color, pretty good blacks (if you have had a 600.00 calibration done), and virtually no visible pixels at all. Their resolution is higher and the fill rate for the ILA is higher than DLP or LCD.



LCD = point and shoot. Some dust problems..


DLP = point and shoot, some units have dust problems and the occasional stuck mirror, but that seems rare. Most current models have annoying rainbow effect.


DILA = an extensive set-up and learning curve, problems with areas of picture pinkish, and commonly stuck pixels, stuck as blue, red or green. The DILA's also have a short bulb life, the bulb is expensive, and the bulb loses 50% of its brightness over its 1000 hr lifespan.


Bottom line here, nothing is perfect, you need to pick what you like and care about, and learn to live with the things that are not as important to you.


Folks tend to be passionate about the projector they purchased, so remember that as you read messages.


All this having been said, nobody can tell you what you will like the best, you really have to go see them.


Best wishes, and have fun with the learning process,


-- Cain

 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm looking to purchase a Front Projection and plan on spending up to $10K exclusive of the screen. I'm interested in DLP or LCD mostly due to low maintenance and setup issues. Room size is 9' x 18' and I would like a screen somewhere around 100" diagonal with 16:9 aspect ratio. I'm mostly interested in viewing DVD and HDTV but don't plan on watching much standard TV with the unit.


Any help and/or opinions would be greatly appreciated. This can be a very confusing process and I would like to get the most for my money. I've been reading up on the Yamaha DPX-1, the Sanyo XP-21N(although it's 4:3), and the Seleco HT-200/250 a bit...any opinions regarding those or others? Thanks in advance for your help!

 
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