AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 61 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,978 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have found an issue that I knew early on would be a problem with my use of 169Time's 1394 board in my DTC-100 at some time in the future but it is now beginning to rear it's predicted ugly head.


Everybody should know by now the 169Time HDVR board works fairly well for recording but for playback has a rather restrictive requirement that one need to be tuned to a local station transmitting 8VSB HDTV in order to play back from your DVHS VCR via the 169Time's retrofit 1394 board. AS long as you have this type of specific signal available, no problemo!


Many people have found using the E*5000 / HDTV modulator to be an excellent source for HDTV 8VSB signal from the E* demo channel or HBO/Showtime if subscribed but the demo channel was available 24/7 and was always HDTV in content.


Others who didn't have this DishNetwork system were forced to use a local station. This also works fine as long as that station is transmitting a solid signal of either 720P or 1080i to include all upconverted content to 1080i as well. BUT, what if your local station switches between 480P / i and 1080i or 720P only when the network is sending the HDTV programming? The DTC-100 does not see the 480p and 480i the same as 720P and 1080i. It will process them at 540P output and all 720P and 1080i as 1080i output. In a series of tests over the past several weeks, the verdict is in, Stations transmitting 480i or 480P switched at the end of a 1080i network feed will cause the 169Time HDVR to shut down and if you happen to be watching a tape at that time, you will lose your playback signal giving the impression that the tape may have been recorded bad. If you have a local station that is maintaining a signal 24/7 in `1080i this issue should not worry you but locally our stations have discovered the advantages of making the switch to 480i whenever their networks are not feeding an HDTV source. Consequently, the only reliable way to play back with the HDVR now is to use the Dish5000/HDVR tuned to a channel like the Dish Demo channel.

Of course there is also one other way and that is to not use the 169Time product for playback! This is what Dave has done early on as he has said that he does not use 169Time product for playback because the JVC's decoder is just easier. I agree with that! However for those who use the Mitsubishi, well, see my point? Keep in mind that while we still have the 5000/HDTV modulator to generate a 1080i signal for 169Time playback function to work, those days are now numbered with the E* announcement of the QPSK HDTV shutdown next year. I knew this was in the works but what I never figured was that the local broadcast stations would all be instituting a practice of only airing a 1080i or 720P signal when the networks offered it and would be switching to 480i at all other times. Whether this practice will continue I can't say. I just know there are real TV station advantages to doing it this way from an engineering and cost angle than to be upconverting all analog SD content to 1080i.



Because of this reality, I have to recognize that my HDVR and 169Time system can only be considered an HDTV record only solution and that playback is a bonus when I can make it work.


Obviously, a JVC 30K or 40K is in the cards for me now that the 921 is soon to be out and that E* has stated that they do have the JVC 30K functional with 1394, save for a few bugs still being ironed out. Hopefully, by the time E* shuts down the QPSK stream, I will be able to shift all my HDTV recording to the 921 with the JVC. IN the past my main concern with the JVC was the problems they had with playback too. Those stories of 30K issues have all but died off so I wonder if people just got tired of complaining or JVC really did fix the problem. Most who report the deck at all report success with it. Those who had the most problems have disappeared except for Dave and he doesn't report problems anymore.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,978 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We're talking about 169Time playback here. Obviously if one uses equipment other than 169Time for playback whether it be a JVC or a computer, then the problem is moot! Duh!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,999 Posts
Oh man. I never knew this about the 169 hack. And this is the system that Dave is using to blast every other recording solution in order to promote his own crippled solution? A system that can record but can't reliably be used for playback. Unbelievable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,735 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G
Oh man. I never knew this about the 169 hack. And this is the system that Dave is using to blast every other recording solution in order to promote his own crippled solution? A system that can record but can't reliably be used for playback. Unbelievable.
I would bet that the percentage of people who use the DTC100 for playback is not all that big (less than half) and those that have local channels messing things up is even smaller. I know in my case I use my 169time for recording only and then use a 2nd 30k for playback. This is much more convenient for me and with refurb 30ks at $299 right now (ecost) seems like a reasonable solution for those who this is a problem for. For those who need VGA there are always transcoders (I paid about $100 for mine).


The solution I would like to see is to make the recordings compatible with the Samsung T165 so we can play stuff back all digitally to devices with DVI/HDCP input, like Don's DWIN.


So, Jerry, if 5% of 169time owners find that they need to take the DTC100 out of the loop for playback, does that still make this "Unbelievable"? If 5% of Dish 921 owners have to implement a workaround like this will you also characterize that as "Unbelievable"?


--Darin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,771 Posts
Quote:
Those stories of 30K issues have all but died off so I wonder if people just got tired of complaining or JVC really did fix the problem.
Since the "fix" my deck has performed flawlesly. So have all the decks that have ben fixed that belong to friend's of mine. I am so satisfied that I just ordered a JVC from ecost.com at $300.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
953 Posts
In my various experiments with recording and playback, I found that the JVC 30k decoder worked better than any other decoder for me for playback of avx-1/1080i streams, whether played from the PC or D-VHS tape. I was looking forward to using my DTC-100 for decoding avx-1 streams, but I did not get results that were as good as with the JVC decoder, even with a stable 1080i OTA signal. Likewise with the Hipix, MyHD, or DVHSTool software decoding. I really like the DTC-100 decoder, but it is not the best choice for me, either for convenience or for best quality playback of avx-1 streams
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,978 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Jerry G- In Dave's defense, as I recall, He has always said the 169Time is a "recording" solution for DirecTV. Dave has always suggested using the JVC for playback, not the 169Time. It was me and several others who used the MIts and understood the limitations of the 169Time for playback. BUT, you need to understand that the 169Time, in addition to being the only solution to record from DirecTV HDTV channels was also the only solution at the time to achieve playback with the Mits 2000U besides a Mits RPTV.

One MUST place all technology in perspective on the historical timeline to be fair. Therefore, during the time when the Mits had two options for playback, 169Time and the Mits RPTV, we also were suffering from huge playback/recording problems with the JVC30K. While many were suffering through issues with the 30K, I was happily recording with near 95% issue free 169Time/Mits combination and with the AVX, as long as I followed my accurate list of do's and don'ts DirecTV was about 95% trouble free as well. Today, the new AVX software removes many of the issues we had with earlier betas but it still has a few infrequent momentary glitches causing me to state my avx/Mits recordings are all but 98% perfect, not 100%.

So it is the future I am talkiing about here. IF the locals switch to 24/7 1080i channel- no problem. If they continue to switch to 480i during the non-HDTV programs and Dish quits the QPSK, the Mits and 169Time will not be able to co-exist as a complete recording/playback system in my HT.




I do have a question for those who are now experiencing excellent results with the JVC30K. Do any of you know whether you cam play tapes recorded on the MIts/AVX? This would be important for me if I decide to move to the JVC but today I'm leaning toward the 40K because of the DTS playback capability. I am waiting for 921 compatibility word from E* before I jump into it though. That may put me into next year before I know the answer to that one. :(
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,999 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp



So, Jerry, if 5% of 169time owners find that they need to take the DTC100 out of the loop for playback, does that still make this "Unbelievable"? If 5% of Dish 921 owners have to implement a workaround like this will you also characterize that as "Unbelievable"?


--Darin
Regardless of what percent need another device for playback, not having the product be able to playback what it produces tells me it's a half-baked product.


Regarding the 921, what is it that 5% of the users will have to implement as a work around with regard to programming?


Don, whether or not Dave has proclaimed the 169 as a "recording" only solution (which I wasn't aware of), it still makes it an incomplete solution.


The "unbelievable" part in all this is the extreme measures H20 goes to denigrate other products while selling an incomplete solution that has certainly had it's share of problems.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,735 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G
Regarding the 921, what is it that 5% of the users will have to implement as a work around with regard to programming?
My sentence started with "If".


--Darin
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,978 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Darin- Yes, If E* sells a 921 that records but then 5% of the people buying one have to pull the hard drive out and play it from a home made computer because their monitor is a 1394 firewire... is that what you mean?

Point is these people, Mits owners" know up front that the 921 does not do monitor out by firewire. Just like we knew up front that the 169Time board required a 1080i 8VSB signal to play back. 169Time was up front about this. I'm just pointing out that what once was considered a fait a compli is no longer, that if QPSK is gone we will still have OTA 1080i to use this feature. At least locally, I can no-longer rely on this.


Bottom line- I now have two reasons to think about adding a JCV with decoder out to my arsenal. But not immediately.



"Don, whether or not Dave has proclaimed the 169 as a "recording" only solution (which I wasn't aware of), it still makes it an incomplete solution."


Yes, at least it is for me. As I bought into the 169time at first so I could have playback for the Mits. Again, this is just an advisory of a trend in broadcasting I see that will inadvertantly affect the function of the 169Time after the demise of QPSK. In technology, nothing lives forever.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,999 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
My sentence started with "If".


--Darin
Hypotheticals that have no basis in reality don't interest me and aren't relevant.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,999 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by miimura
In my mind, this kind of issue is to be expected from a solution that is essentially an elaborate hack.


- Mike
Absolutely.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,399 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G
The "unbelievable" part in all this is the extreme measures H20 goes to denigrate other products while selling an incomplete solution that has certainly had it's share of problems.
I don't see him denigrating other products that are on the market. Rather, I see him pointing out time and time again that these other "products" do not yet exist. Even today, the 169time system is the only solution for recording HDTV off of DirecTV and DISH. And it will still be the only firewire recording solution for both even AFTER the PVR921 and HD-DirecTiVo come out.


People invariably look to future products and they don't see the bugs in them, as they are not yet on the market. They see the bugs in current offerings, so the future ones look better. Yet, they do not really exist as an item that can be bought at a store or even on the internet.


An incomplete solution that has had it's share of problems? What, like the DVR's won't be incomplete? They will lack archiving. And will they be lacking problems? My DirecTiVo didn't have 2 tuners when I first got it.


If somebody wants to attack the 169time equipment, fine. Just show something that is available and better. Until then, it is the only show in town - complete or not, perfect or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,735 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis
Darin- Yes, If E* sells a 921 that records but then 5% of the people buying one have to pull the hard drive out and play it from a home made computer because their monitor is a 1394 firewire... is that what you mean?
Don,


I came into this differently that you, so in my mind the component outputs on the 30k were the supported way to play back 169time recordings. Everything else is just another way it can be done. I know that for Mits owners this isn't the case, though.


I think that pulling the hard-drive out every time you wanted to use it would be pretty major. Much more so than using a $299 30k for playback. I always take tapes out after recording them anyway, though. That isn't the way a PVR is meant to be used.


Now, this is only a problem if you can't find a single local station that broadcasts HD all day and you lose your Dish 5000 setup, right?


So, is it true that there isn't a single person who this is currently having a problem with this? This may be a problem in the future if all local channels that somebody gets switch, they use the Mits and don't have a working 5000, right? And we don't know if we will get a software release from Richard before anybody has a problem that will make this whole issue moot, right? And Jerry's response to that is:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G.
A system that can record but can't reliably be used for playback. Unbelievable.
I think most would think the word "over-reaction" would apply in this case.


Jerry,


It will be interesting to see what your reaction will be to any 921 issues and whether those will also look like over-reactions. Okay, it is hypothetical today, but the 921 will have some problems that will be reality and your reaction at that time will be reality.


And I think your statement would have been more accurate as:


"A system that can record but someday might not be able to be used reliably be used for playback for some people."


Seems to me that maybe you were going out of your way to get back at Dave.


--Darin
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,978 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Darin-

"So, is it true that there isn't a single person who this is currently having a problem with this? This may be a problem in the future if all local channels that somebody gets switch, they use the Mits and don't have a working 5000, right?


That is just rephrased what I said at the start. Even my title was not misleading- I said this was a looming problem that lies ahead. The two conditions must happen for this to be an issuepreventing the USE of 169Time for playpack. Both the QPSK for DishNetwork's HDTV must be discontinued AND the local OTA stations need to continue this current trend where they switch 1080i off and go to 480i for most of the broadcast day. The only thing you said which is not quite accurate is the use of needing HDTV for 169Time playback. The 169Time can use upconverted SD as long as the OTA signal is at either 720P or 1080i. 480P and 480i will not work.
 
1 - 20 of 61 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top