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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm trying to properly set up the 5.1 analog from my Sharp BD player to a Yamaha V995's analog inputs.


I can't see a way to boost the LFE in the Yamaha (any speaker adjustments will also affect my other sources). So I adjusted the BD player's bass management to crank the sub to +6 and everything else to -4, then the sub level sounds about right.


But lossless like TrueHD doesn't sound that good, in fact I think optical sounds better. At best they're about the same.


I don't know if the player's decoders and D/A converters suck, or maybe it's my receiver. Anyone use the 5.1 analogs on an older receiver like this?
 

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I think the signal on analog on the blu-ray will be down around 10 db, so you will need to boost all channels, not just the bass. IF your receiver has analog speaker settings try bumping all of them up too. If your setting speakers as small you will need another 5db increase if possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chatanika /forum/post/15502346


I think the signal on analog on the blu-ray will be down around 10 db, so you will need to boost all channels, not just the bass. IF your receiver has analog speaker settings try bumping all of them up too. If your setting speakers as small you will need another 5db increase if possible.

I've heard just the LFE channel is low (by 10 dB) on analog out - and this jives with what I hear - I hear no bass from the sub.


I did turn the volume up a lot.
 

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The LFE signal on ANY analog output is going to be 10 dB lower than the other signals. This is by design in the original Dolby 5.1 specs, to allow for LFE signals to have additional headroom, particularly when additional signal is added in from the use of bass management.


Unfortunately, many receivers do not implement 5.1/7.1 analog properly, or have a less-than-obvious method for adding back in the necessary 10 dB boost (which really should be done in the amplifier, but that's another thread).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/15503959


The LFE signal on ANY analog output is going to be 10 dB lower than the other signals. This is by design in the original Dolby 5.1 specs, to allow for LFE signals to have additional headroom, particularly when additional signal is added in from the use of bass management.


Unfortunately, many receivers do not implement 5.1/7.1 analog properly, or have a less-than-obvious method for adding back in the necessary 10 dB boost (which really should be done in the amplifier, but that's another thread).

I sort of got around that by adjusting levels in the player, but ignoring the LFE issue, the sound isn't that good, I think the optical sounds a bit better. I'm guessing the Sharp player's D/A converters aren't good or something.
 

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Sorry for the mis-information. Are you using the small or large setting? Just curious how it sounds each way. I have a pioneer 51 blu-ray and use the analog outs, when using small, the fixed cross over on the pio is 120 hz which leaves a hole in the upper bass. This forces me to use the bass management in my pre/pro which works but then it has to do another adc, which to me doesn't sound as clean as pure analog direct. Time for an upgrade I guess. lossy Blu-ray on coax isn't quite as good as lossless but it's pretty close, and alot better than dolby on standard dvd. So if that's what you have to do it's no big deal imo.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chatanika /forum/post/15505782


Are you using the small or large setting? Just curious how it sounds each way. I have a pioneer 51 blu-ray and use the analog outs, when using small, the fixed cross over on the pio is 120 hz which leaves a hole in the upper bass. This forces me to use the bass management in my pre/pro which works but then it has to do another adc, which to me doesn't sound as clean as pure analog direct.

You should only use Bass Management in one place in your system to avoid creating the "response hole" you mention. In most cases, it's easiest to use no BM in your source devices, and let the receiver (pre/pro) handle the BM function. It also generally avoids the issues of level-matching between different BM implementations in the source devices.


[Simplified - Set speaker sizes to "Large" in all the source devices no matter what. Then set your speaker sizes to "Small" in the receiver if you want to shift bass from the mains to the sub.]
 

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Yes I learned that the hard way. The problem is many receivers don't have bass management on the analogs, and are forced to run large with no cross or use small on the blu-ray player and get stuck with a 120hz cross like on the pioneer.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/15506818


You should only use Bass Management in one place in your system to avoid creating the "response hole" you mention. In most cases, it's easiest to use no BM in your source devices, and let the receiver (pre/pro) handle the BM function. It also generally avoids the issues of level-matching between different BM implementations in the source devices.


[Simplified - Set speaker sizes to "Large" in all the source devices no matter what. Then set your speaker sizes to "Small" in the receiver if you want to shift bass from the mains to the sub.]

This only applies if your receiver can provide BM for analog inputs. If it doesn't you are relegated to doing BM in all locations, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I'm a little confused on the large/small & crossover issue, but I'm running small in the source, and in the receiver as well.


I don't believe my receiver has any bass management for the analog input - I think any level adjustments for speakers affects every input.


What does the BD player do with TrueHD over optical, is there a DD 5.1 core built in like in DTS HD? Cause the Traitor disc was TrueHD and sounded like crap over optical - seemed like it was 2 channel. Yet TrueHD from Transformers sounded great over optical.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong /forum/post/15508854


What does the BD player do with TrueHD over optical, is there a DD 5.1 core built in like in DTS HD? Cause the Traitor disc was TrueHD and sounded like crap over optical - seemed like it was 2 channel. Yet TrueHD from Transformers sounded great over optical.

With an optical connection the player reverts to standard DD. TrueHD does not have a higher bit-rate "core" like DTS-HD MA.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sptrout /forum/post/15509078


With an optical connection the player reverts to standard DD. TrueHD does not have a higher bit-rate "core" like DTS-HD MA.

Does the studio have to put std DD 5.1 on the disc? Maybe the Traitor disc has only TrueHD and 2 channel DD. There was no audio option on disc besides TrueHD.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong /forum/post/15509306


Does the studio have to put std DD 5.1 on the disc? Maybe the Traitor disc has only TrueHD and 2 channel DD. There was no audio option on disc besides TrueHD.

As I understand it (from reading all the forums), is that any disk with TrueHD must also have the standard DD track so it is backwards compatible. I would assume that it is 5.1; why would they down mix it to 2.0?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by In2Photos /forum/post/15507887


This only applies if your receiver can provide BM for analog inputs. If it doesn't you are relegated to doing BM in all locations, correct?

Not in ALL locations.


It's pretty simple - you shouldn't ever have BM occurring at two separate places at the same time in your system. How you accomplish that is sepcific to your receiver and connection scheme.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong /forum/post/15508854


I'm a little confused on the large/small & crossover issue, but I'm running small in the source, and in the receiver as well.

In general, this is not a good way to run your system.


As an example, if you had a source device that crosses over at 120 Hz, but had your receiver set for 80 Hz, the range between 80 and 120 Hz will be come a "hole" that will not be treated properly. If you're lucky with your particular components, you may simply have program material above 80 Hz that goes to the sub. If not, you may find that the material between 80 and 120 Hz disappears. [OK, purists, I know it's not that simple - I understand the crossover slopes, but you get my point.]
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/15512274


In general, this is not a good way to run your system.


As an example, if you had a source device that crosses over at 120 Hz, but had your receiver set for 80 Hz, the range between 80 and 120 Hz will be come a "hole" that will not be treated properly. If you're lucky with your particular components, you may simply have program material above 80 Hz that goes to the sub. If not, you may find that the material between 80 and 120 Hz disappears. [OK, purists, I know it's not that simple - I understand the crossover slopes, but you get my point.]

ok, so setting small in the source introduces a crossover in the source?


I set everything to large, and I think it helped a little, but still doesn't sound any better than optical. I will try more discs though, see if I can notice a difference. Optical still has more bass, I think the bass is still a little low even with 10 dB differential in the source.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/15512149


Not in ALL locations.


It's pretty simple - you shouldn't ever have BM occurring at two separate places at the same time in your system. How you accomplish that is sepcific to your receiver and connection scheme.

No it isn't simple. That is why we have questions!



But I should be more specific. I have a Denon AVR-3802, a Denon DVD-2200 DVD-A/SACD) and a Panasonic BD55 blu ray player. Now, all 3 units can provide bass management. It is my understanding that most receivers do ZERO processing of the multi channel inputs. This means that I am required to perform all bass management in the source. So I have to do BM in the SACD player and the Blu-ray player for those sources. But then I have to do BM in the receiver for all other sources (Cable, DVD, CD, Tuner, etc). So in essence I am doing BM in ALL locations, however I am not "doubling up" since the analog inputs do nothing to the signal.


Does that make more sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM /forum/post/15512274


In general, this is not a good way to run your system.


As an example, if you had a source device that crosses over at 120 Hz, but had your receiver set for 80 Hz, the range between 80 and 120 Hz will be come a "hole" that will not be treated properly. If you're lucky with your particular components, you may simply have program material above 80 Hz that goes to the sub. If not, you may find that the material between 80 and 120 Hz disappears. [OK, purists, I know it's not that simple - I understand the crossover slopes, but you get my point.]

Again, this is not going to happen if your AVR does not do BM to the analog inputs (as most don't), right?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong /forum/post/15512490


ok, so setting small in the source introduces a crossover in the source?

Yes!


When you set any particular speaker to "Small", the BM processor will apply a crossover function and route the bass below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer.

Quote:
I set everything to large, and I think it helped a little, but still doesn't sound any better than optical. I will try more discs though, see if I can notice a difference. Optical still has more bass, I think the bass is still a little low even with 10 dB differential in the source.

If you are also doing BM in the source device, then you will need a LFE/sub boost of more than 10 dB - probably on the order of 13-15dB.


This is not immediately obvious (clearly), but there are a LOT of good reasons not to do Bass Management in the source device. Here's 1:

____________________________________________________________ ___


The LFE signal from the decoded 5.1/7.1 audio will always be encoded 10 dB lower than the other signals. This is designed to provide more headroom without overdriving the subwoofer's input.


HOWEVER, when you apply BM and mix in redirected bass from the other channels, they must be reduced by 10 dB to match the LFE level. Make sense? (Some source devices still get this wrong.)


OK, so now we have combined LFE and BM bass at -10 dB. Trouble is, if you have heavy bass in the mains AND and peaking LFE signal, the combination of the two can overdrive the sub/LFE signal. Thus, the combined signal must be lowered by another 3 dB to maintain headroom.


If you use BM for all of the signals (mains, surrounds, center), it gets even worse. In this case, the combined sub/LFE signal may be as low as -15dB or even -18dB (depends on the processor).


Now, to top it off, you have a receiver that doesn't do Bass Management on the analog inputs, but also won't allow you to trim the levels individually by input source. Given that you absolutely know that the sub/LFE needs a variable additional boost somewhere between 10 and 20 dB, this is a terrible limitation. The easiest work-around is to simply lower the main/center/surround levels in the source device's settings, but this degrades the mains signals.



In truth, you are unlikely to find this information in the manual(s). To be honest, the implementation of bass management in source devices is often incorrect, rarely documented, and terribly inconsistent from company to company and product to product.


Keep in mind, though, that the real problem is with the RECEIVER, not the source device. The receiver isn't allowing you to to BM in the receiver - where it SHOULD be done, so that you can maintain all of the analog signals at maximum level without clipping.


Under any circumstances, since you can't depend on consistency in analog multi-channel levels using source-based BM, the only thing you can really do is to:

1) Use a calibration disc (DVE, Avia, etc) and SPL meter to set and match the levels at the receiver using a different source device.

2) Use a calibration disc and SPL meter to set and match the levels for the multi-channel source device. This time, only adjust the levels at the source device.


It's a hack work-around, but it's the only thing you can do given the system's limitations.



FWIW, there is a very long but informative thread over in the HD DVD hardware section. The HD-XA2 had a severe firmware bug in the original LFE/BM implementation; it got worked out in a later revision, but was still off by a dB or two in the surrounds. Several of us here got VERY involved in figuring out exactly what was happening with the XA2, and there is a TON of good information in that thread.
 

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Great post(s) MauneyM! Your comment: "In truth, you are unlikely to find this information in the manual(s). To be honest, the implementation of bass management in source devices is often incorrect, rarely documented, and terribly inconsistent from company to company and product to product." Really hits the main point.


It is nearly impossible to figureout how to setup a 5.1 analog system without help from outside sources. I really feel sorry for all the folks out there in HT land you do not have a clue as to what really has to be done to setup their system. I am sure that there are many, many disappointed users, or they don't realize that they are missing almost all their bass.
 

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keep at it. I consider the multi-ch analog the most advanced connection and it often takes more work to get it right.


It helps if your already familure through the use of an SACD player for example.
 
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