AVS Forum banner

41 - 60 of 71 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,513 Posts
Discussion Starter #41
Oh I wish they did, but sadly they don’t. To be honest I’m surprised you need the cleanbox for the crown though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hence the thread :) I'll be sure to post some results when I get a chance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
369 Posts
You could unplug your speakers from your AVR and the subs from the amp (so that no sound will output) and play a signal into the AVR (via rew or some YouTube video) with no filtering applied in the miniDSP. See if you can clip the miniDSP input by looking at the input level indicators. If you can't, then you've at least identified one area for improvement (output level too low from AVR). If you can, then play the same signal and see if you can clip the input on the Crowns. If you can't, then the clean box isn't a bad option if there are no settings on the Crown that can be adjusted for the lower input signal. If you can, there's a wiring issue within the subs themselves that is preventing you from getting full output power. You could also verify that last step by using the multimeter to measure the impedance at the sub cable connectors. If you get roughly whatever you're expecting (probably either 2 ohms or 4 ohms) then you've eliminated that possibility.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,159 Posts
IQUESTION: wouldn't the voltage coming out of the NAD not matter because it's hitting a MiniDSP which is being used as a splitter? Wouldn't the output voltage be set by that?
Output voltage is still a function of input voltage. Too low coming in and it can be too low going out. You can add gain in the DSP to make up for it, to a point.

And if my Rythmiks were getting enough voltage on a 30' run and I switched the outputs to the crown at a 2' run, wouldn't it stand to reason that the voltage coming out of the miniDSP is not the issue?
The Rhythmics and Crown don't necessarily have the same input sensitivity. The Crown might still need more voltage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,475 Posts
You didn't do anything silly like wire the coils in parallel inverted. That will definitely not produce much sound and/or fry the coils.

When you measure the AVR, miniDSP and Cleanbox, make sure that the probe tips don't touch or you'll smoke your gear with 0-ohms...
I recommend playing a 60hz REW sinewave since most multimeters are designed for measuring that frequency in Vac mode, you'll need a multimeter that can read values below 1-2 volts.

As mentioned by myself and several others: Have you tried turning the bed trims all the way down? Have you tried turning the miniDSP gains all the way up, and Cleanbox from RCA to XLR with gains all the way up, and any gains the Crown software all the way up?
There has got to be like a zillion db worth of gain between those 4 devices. Things should literally be catching on fire from the amount of watts.

The mutlimeter will find the defective component, it has too...

and yeah low input = low output.
You can't play music/movies at -30db, it's gotta be "it goes to 11..." :D

As mentioned the Rythmik most likely has fairly high input sensitivity, so you'll have to crank that down to almost -infinity to match the crown. Which has nothing to do with watts, and everything to gain structure. But that should be a last-resort.
It's probably one of the above things that are causing the issues at hand.

Most MBM's output roughly 100db with just 1 watt, so it sounds like you are literally giving it zero watts at the moment...
Something is seriously defective here.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,513 Posts
Discussion Starter #45
You didn't do anything silly like wire the coils in parallel inverted. That will definitely not produce much sound and/or fry the coils.
.
I used speaker wire red to red/black to black from the back of the driver to the binding posts via ring terminals. I used 12AWG internally and externally. I have barewire going to the binding posts.

During my original experiment, I ran the speaker wire through the port and had bare wire attached to the back of the driver via it's spring loaded terminals. I still had the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
I just did a fresh tune(new room) on my setup and had no problem peaking the lights on my XLS1002's being driven by a MiniDSP 2x4 and Marantz SR7011. Are you sure you aren't missing something silly?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,307 Posts
@tjcinnamon

Can you please post your screenshots of these MiniDSP screen? Mainly the Crossover screens (for both inputs) and for both Outputs..

That or if we have the same plug-in, go to settings and save our configuration file out and attach it here and I will take a look.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,513 Posts
Discussion Starter #48
@tjcinnamon

Can you please post your screenshots of these MiniDSP screen? Mainly the Crossover screens (for both inputs) and for both Outputs..

That or if we have the same plug-in, go to settings and save our configuration file out and attach it here and I will take a look.
Everything is flat and bypassed. I think I missed the screenshot of the output but it is maxed for each channel (1/2 and 3/4)
I hope to grab some measurements tonight... Unlikely but I'll give it a shot. Otherwise, I have a pretty big re-cabling session coming up. So that is likely a good opportunity.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,475 Posts
I'm no miniDSP expert, but it appears to be reading almost neg inf on the miniDSP input and output.
-80db etc
Should be reading -10db or higher.

So the problem is your AVR or music signal too weak or MV too low or wiring between AVR and miniDSP is bad.

Nothing to do with crown or cleanbox or driver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,307 Posts
I'm no miniDSP expert, but it appears to be reading almost neg inf on the miniDSP input and output.
-80db etc
Should be reading -10db or higher.

So the problem is your AVR or music signal too weak or MV too low or wiring between AVR and miniDSP is bad.

Nothing to do with crown or cleanbox or driver.
If he took screenshots with just the software running (not connected to the Mini), or connected with no music playing then it would as its basically silent :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,513 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
I'm no miniDSP expert, but it appears to be reading almost neg inf on the miniDSP input and output.
-80db etc
Should be reading -10db or higher.

So the problem is your AVR or music signal too weak or MV too low or wiring between AVR and miniDSP is bad.

Nothing to do with crown or cleanbox or driver.
If he took screenshots with just the software running (not connected to the Mini), or connected with no music playing then it would as its basically silent /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Yeah, nothing was playing. You just wanted to see the settings to make sure the settings werent out of whack
 

·
Registered
JVC RS4500 | ST130 G4 135" | MRX 720 | MC303 MC152 | B&W 802D3, HTM1D3, 805D3, 702S2 | 4x15 IB Subs
Joined
·
8,435 Posts
I've seen some low-output threads recently and one thing I've noticed is that usually there a Crown amp involved. I'm finally setting up my MBM's and the Crown with unbalanced inputs (regardless of input sensitivity) requires max gain to even modestly keep up with my mains! Certainly nowhere near the modeling of WinISD.

However, when I put a Clean Box Pro and convert unbalanced to balanced (XLR) I can make it pound proper. Apparently the Clean Box adds +4dB to the gain.

I'm going to get an iNuke and see if this is a similar phenomenon (and return it or sell the Crown). I'm not thrilled at the prospect of having to have a Clean Box solely to pump the gain. I have a separate circuit for the HT gear so I don't need it for ground purposes.
I don't think the crown is broke.

What have others experienced or seen?
This is pretty normal and cleanbox pro is a great solution. It increases the input voltage so that the balanced only amps get the voltage they expect. The inuke and crown will both need it about the same. My EP4000 did not need it, but did benefit with it. A cleanbox pro is still a great solution as pro amps aren't known for being ultra low noise. The cleanbox allows you to keep the gain on the amp lower and therefore, also decrease the output noise. I got a cleanbox pro when I was testing an inuke1000DSP and while I didn't keep the inuke, I did keep the cleanbox and hooked it up to my EP4000. The gain went from max to about 30% for the same volume level lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
Hi - just came across this thread while researching my identical issue.

Denon x4300h consumer AVR > Crown XLS 2002 (via RCA) with input sensitivity on 0.775V > subwoofer (UM15-22) just isn't putting out the bass.
Swap in my Dayton Audio SA1000 used for buttkickers and it cranks.
Connect PC (via USB) to miniDSP HD > Crown XLS (via RCA) > subwoofer and test tones crank.


So it looks like the 0.775V setting doesn't do what one would think and/or the Denon AVR's output voltage is much lower than the 1.2V spec. I havent measured it with a multimeter.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3017934-first-build-issue-crown-xls-2002-a.html

David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
369 Posts
It increases the input voltage... A cleanbox pro is still a great solution as pro amps aren't known for being ultra low noise. The cleanbox allows you to keep the gain on the amp lower and therefore, also decrease the output noise.
The cleanbox amplifies the entire signal. So if there's noise in the signal, it amplifies that too. Whether the noise introduced upstream is less than the amp hiss you get downstream depends on the gear you have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fill35U

·
Registered
Joined
·
601 Posts
Denon receivers have plenty of output. Turn off Audy, check sub levels in the receiver - both places, dynamic eq should be off.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
Denon receivers have plenty of output. Turn off Audy, check sub levels in the receiver - both places, dynamic eq should be off.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
No dice. Turned off Audyssey. Subwoofer level in manual speaker config is at 0dB. Direct from Sub out RCA to crown CH1 RCA,
Need to run the Crown in bridged mode with the knob maxed at 100% to get any meaningful output. That's 2100W available power into 4ohm load. The green light at the bottom of the meter just flickers occasionally.

Same AVR settings: If I connect same Sub out RCA to Dayton SA1000 (950W into 4 ohms), the subwoofer cranks with gain knob at 75%.

Only difference is that the SA1000 is expecting lower voltage at the input IMHO.

Or maybe I should really need to run over 2100W into a UM15-22 in a 3 cuft sealed enclosure to get it to barely move … the driver is rated at 800W!

David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,157 Posts
No dice. Turned off Audyssey. Subwoofer level in manual speaker config is at 0dB. Direct from Sub out RCA to crown CH1 RCA,
Need to run the Crown in bridged mode with the knob maxed at 100% to get any meaningful output. That's 2100W available power into 4ohm load. The green light at the bottom of the meter just flickers occasionally.

Same AVR settings: If I connect same Sub out RCA to Dayton SA1000 (950W into 4 ohms), the subwoofer cranks with gain knob at 75%.

Only difference is that the SA1000 is expecting lower voltage at the input IMHO.

Or maybe I should really need to run over 2100W into a UM15-22 in a 3 cuft sealed enclosure to get it to barely move … the driver is rated at 800W!

David
Maxed is fine on the crown as that is just straight through. those knobs are attenuation not gain, the can only reduce not boost. maxed just means its not reducing signal, exactly the same as if there were no knobs.

I dont know if the SA1000 is built with an extra gain stage controlled by the gain knob. If it is that would explain why It can be made to be much more sensitive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
435 Posts
No dice. Turned off Audyssey. Subwoofer level in manual speaker config is at 0dB. Direct from Sub out RCA to crown CH1 RCA,
Need to run the Crown in bridged mode with the knob maxed at 100% to get any meaningful output. That's 2100W available power into 4ohm load. The green light at the bottom of the meter just flickers occasionally.

Same AVR settings: If I connect same Sub out RCA to Dayton SA1000 (950W into 4 ohms), the subwoofer cranks with gain knob at 75%.

Only difference is that the SA1000 is expecting lower voltage at the input IMHO.

Or maybe I should really need to run over 2100W into a UM15-22 in a 3 cuft sealed enclosure to get it to barely move … the driver is rated at 800W!

David
The bottom green light flickering means you need to send it more signal. Try turning up your sub out to +3 db. You aren't producing anywhere near 2100w with only the bottom light barely flickering. Not even 200 if I had to hazard a guess.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,513 Posts
Discussion Starter #59
It increases the input voltage... A cleanbox pro is still a great solution as pro amps aren't known for being ultra low noise. The cleanbox allows you to keep the gain on the amp lower and therefore, also decrease the output noise.
The cleanbox amplifies the entire signal. So if there's noise in the signal, it amplifies that too. Whether the noise introduced upstream is less than the amp hiss you get downstream depends on the gear you have.
If all it does is amplify the gain then where is the “cleaning” part of it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,157 Posts
If all it does is amplify the gain then where is the “cleaning” part of it?
it allows you to pump up the voltage high and send balanced which will help combat noise if you your sending signal 40ft through wire spaghetti.
 
41 - 60 of 71 Posts
Top