AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The agreements being signed today look like content encryption may be happening soon.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...eut/index.html


Since the progress of such an agreement would be well known to vendors, could the price drop of the LT150 be more than the LT150z release. Could the price drop really be reflecting a short life span of equipment without decryption capabilities.


At the same time, the encryption would not affect the presentation projector application which is probably their most important market.


I know I am holding off to see how this all plays out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
I'm no engineer, but it seems that any encryption hassles would affect set-top boxes, DVD players, or RPTV's with built-in satellite tuners, not projectors. If you are able to watch encrypted program at all, it would be decrypted before it reached the display.


In any case, with thousands of DVD's available which look fantastic on a good projector, it's worth $2700 for the LT 150. Frankly, I sometimes wish that ALL bit-perfect recording of digital signals would be outlawed. No D-VHS, no DVD recorders, no blank discs. BUT THEN give us copy-proof 1080p DVD's for a fair price. I would take that deal any day.


Mike


P.S. OF COURSE I want to record HDTV. I'm just tired of technology being held up because of piracy concerns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by catullus:
I'm no engineer, but it seems that any encryption hassles would affect set-top boxes, DVD players, or RPTV's with built-in satellite tuners, not projectors. If you are able to watch encrypted program at all, it would be decrypted before it reached the display
I am not sure, but I thought the encryption would go into the video display so that there would be no easy way to get to the analog signal for recording.


One person talked about the Firewire being the only HDTV output from a set top box which would prevent viewing or recording unless the other equipment also had a Firewire input.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
The LT150 _is_ a presentation projector, it's not designed for HT, it just happens to be quite good at it for the price.


------------------

Darren Rogers


Please stop reading my signature....

NOW!!!

I really mean it, you're starting to get on my nerves!

Listen, I'm not kidding here, if you keep reading, you're gonna regret it!

Look into my eyes, and do not doubt my reslove - if you persist, you will be taught a lesson you will not forget!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
873 Posts
This is an interesting topic that warrants clarification from those who know (not me!).


However, I would guess that any decription of the digital signal would occur in the conversion to analog stage. Since this is happening in the receiver, then again in the scaler, and yet again in the projector, I don't see how an encryption would necessarily take place at all points for display.


For recording though, that may be a different matter altogether.


Kelly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
HDTV copy protection has been an issue with content providers since day one. If you plan on holding off a projector purchase until all this stuff is worked out, plan on a LONG wait. This battle has been going on for years already.


Last I heard there were two competing approaches being seriously considered. One is being championed by JVC. It is called HDCP. This approach requires encrypted DVI connections between set top boxes, HDTV VCRs and HDTV displays. The signal is kept completely in the digital domain, encrypted, until it reaches the display device. It is questionable whether the set top boxes or VCRs will even provide analog outputs, but it they did, they would only provide a down converted non-HDTV signal (540p?). With HDCP, broadcasters will have the ability to dictate whether a program can be time shifted (ala TIVO), recorded once, more than once (copy of a copy), or not at all. This is considered by most people here to be the most undesirable approach. If your projector does not have HDCP support, you will not be able to view HDTV in it's full glory. Since no projectors today (other than a prototype JVC D-ILA) support HDCP, none of our projectors will be fully compatible with this format. This one is favored by many studios since it offers the greatest copy protection. Of course, since most early adopters absolutely hate this idea, it is doomed to failure.


The second approach is called 5C copy protection. It has backing of several companies, Sony being one of them. This one uses firewire connections between set top boxes and HDTV VCRs, similar to what is being used in the Panasonic TU-DST5x and the PV-HD1000 VCR (although its unclear whether these actually support 5C). This is a less draconian approach and will not obsolete today's HDTV sets and projectors. I believe it offers broadcasters most, if not all, of the same protections as HDCP, but it does support analog outputs.


If you search the HDTV forums for 5C and HDCP, you can find out a lot more about these competing technologies. I believe that some form of copy protection is inevitable. It actually sounds like good news that 5C might win in the end.


[This message has been edited by belmore (edited 07-18-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,225 Posts
All of the above is interesting, but it does not change the fact that today's D/A conversion happens in the video card of a PC or in the HD receiver, and the signal driving the display is a fully analog RGB signal. There are a few DVI displays around but they are the exception.


Any copy protection scheme that is not compatible with today's installed base of hardware is unlikely to succeed. Those of us who are early adopters of HD-capable displays will ultimately determine the success or failure of any such attempt. We have our stuff already, the rest of the marketplace is awaiting $500 medium-sized HDTVs.


Everyone please do their part and don't buy any equipment with any copy protection scheme, ever. Regular advertiser-supported shows will not be encrypted, only movies. Instead, watch DVDs and lobby for HD-DVD.


Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
I need to amend my post above. It seems that 5C may have grown more similar to HDCP than I thought. According to posts that I was just reading in the HDTV Hardware forum, 5C will also only provide dumbed down analog outputs (if at all) on STBs and VCRs as well. This is very bad news.


I agree with Gary. This is doomed to failure, just as DIVX was. The studios and manufacturers are going to alienate the very people that make or break new products - early adopters. They are dreaming if they think this crap can succeed without our support. But that is the secret that must get out. If we don't accept it, it will fail.


Don't be fooled. The studios want to be able to charge you every time you watch their content. Look at DIVX. They promised that you would be able to "silver" DIVX movies, upgrade them for a one time fee, so that you could watch them over and over. Big surprise. Only the worst movies offered this option. The movies worth watching were not upgradeable. If you give them the abilities that these copy protections allow, be prepared for the worst!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I have a new JVC G15 on order that is copy protection free. I personally would rather forego HDTV completely than accept these copy protection schemes. Of course, I may not have a choice on that... I guess that all depends on what the rest of you do!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by kstirman:
However, I would guess that any description of the digital signal would occur in the conversion to analog stage. Since this is happening in the receiver, then again in the scaler, and yet again in the projector, I don't see how an encryption would necessarily take place at all points for display.


For recording though, that may be a different matter altogether.


Kelly
There is no reason that the receiver would convert to analog. The cheapest and most secure way would be to ship the signal around as compressed encrypted data.


The data would be recorded as the data stream straight out of the receiver as is now with TiVo type recorders for DirecTV or Dish.


It would be decoded and converted only in a display device. Scalers would be working directly with the digital signal to prevent the quality loss caused by A/D & D/A conversions.


I assume a public key system is used where the private keys would never become known and description is done with the public key.


This raises the question if it is even possible to build external scalers without being able to decrypt and then encrypt again to go back out on the Firewire. Maybe scalers will exist only in the display units.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by belmore:
HDTV copy protection has been an issue with content providers since day one. If you plan on holding off a projector purchase until all this stuff is worked out, plan on a LONG wait. This battle has been going on for years already.
It looks like the discussions have ended. They are signing contracts to use 5C (if that is what it is still called). From the news story, it looks like products are months away instead of years.


They have almost certainly been developing products for quick introduction once most of the major players sign the agreement.


My wild guess is that those that don't sign will face the inability to continue their license of key HDTV technology.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
The article only covers STBs for HD over cable, just the first of many required agreements... OTA HD stuff is not encrypted under this scheme, nor is DBS based HD content. Additionally, even if the STBs start to appear in months (unlikely), the 2 million+ homes that have already purchased HD displays will pretty much ensure that there is an HD capable output from these devices. Without it, the entire installed base of HDTVs is pretty much gauranteed to pass the boxes by.


------------------

Darren Rogers


Please stop reading my signature....

I really mean it, you're starting to get on my nerves!

Listen, I'm not kidding here, if you keep reading, you're gonna regret it!

Look into my eyes, and do not doubt my reslove - if you persist, you will be taught a lesson you will not forget!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
luvmytivo,

DBS is covered. To be more specific, most new STB's from DirecTV, like Sony, have devices inside that DTV can use to disable your HDTV viewing at anytime, they just haven't used it yet. SO most new DTV STB's already have some form of censorship in them

jdang
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top