AVS Forum banner

21 - 40 of 76 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Just what is in the amp. From what I understand, the inuke starts cutting off below 20Hz?
Xmax speaker excursion limits according to WinISD 0.7xxxxx modeling don't happen until 16Hz and lower.
What I've read is that the roll off is pretty gradual, so at 16Hz there could still be a lot of power there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
It sounds like you are a basshead and need 4x 21's. An Inuke can easily make smelly ultimax voice coils. Maybe try some B&C 21's?
THinking of the B&Cs. The 21SW115 models favorably in the same enclosure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,976 Posts
Are you sure you weren't clipping that amp to hell and back?
 
  • Like
Reactions: unretarded

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,493 Posts
Just what is in the amp. From what I understand, the inuke starts cutting off below 20Hz?
Xmax speaker excursion limits according to WinISD 0.7xxxxx modeling don't happen until 16Hz and lower.
No, it starts cutting off at 5hz. If you didn't apply a high pass filter in the amps dsp and your sub is ported, it will unload under tune and distroy itself.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,374 Posts
Including my responses to others questions? What other facts might you be looking for?
The full story...my driver smoked leaves a lot not understood.


How loud......duration.....all the relevant settings in the equipment etc.


Basically the story of what happened...........not just the ending....;)


What do you think the problem was.........what do you think would have prevented it ?


I have super cheap speakers, but I have everything calibrated for reference and all the proper settings in my equipment and have done some full reference hours on end jam sessions with EDM/bass I love you style music and have had no driver failures..................could just be luck or not. I have had the plate amps on the subs soo hot, holding your finger on there for 3 seconds hurts.

Last jam session included much too much wine and food and lasted about 6 hours......the volume was turned down to loud levels occasionally, but for the most part was at full reference.

I have all speakers calibrated at 75db with the master volume at 0, sub output in the negative on the AVR and gains set so the amp clip lights light up occasionally when a really hard hit happens and a HPF in the DSP and the sub set flat with REW and DSP so there are no huge peaks or dips in FR.

Pioneer elite vsx-lx 301 to a mini DSP to a BGW pro series amp running the amp in dual channels putting out approx. 680 watts per channel to a HT-18 on each channel that is rated at 600 watts in 6.5ft3 sealed cabs.


Something like the above should give a clear picture of what happened and possibly why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Lack of details from OP (who started a thread about how great Mach 5 was just before this) says a lot...an example would be if he used a HPF or not for the subs, and what content and to what extent/duration he was playing them at. I doubt the driver could handle 1200w in a cab tuned to the high teens with no HPF applied and having Bass, I love you on repeat...At that point, its not the manufacturer's or drivers fault.
There was even an issue with a JTR user blowing the driver and JTR replaced it for free thinking it was a defect when the user was simply playing EDM basically max for hours on end.
Mach 5 customer service is still great. I can't help if the speaker didn't handle what I expected it could. Nmely a signal that models at 1240 watts in WinISD. It was on the second motorhead CD that the issue occurred. Less than an hour of playing time? I didn't have a stopwatch to say exactly how long.

I beleive I have answered details in my responses. If not, what other information do you want?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
Are you sure you weren't clipping that amp to hell and back?
No I am not. However, I don't think I was. The red limiting LED was flickering. It was not steady. My understanding is flickering, going into limit at times. Red = steady clipping to hell and back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,830 Posts
I think you may be better going big coil, pro driver route like you were thinking of.
Have you thought of going the horn route?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
Did you have a high pass filter set? Another thing what did you have the amp gains set at along with the trim level on your AVR? I hope you had the limiter set if you did not that would cause major malfunction if you adjusted the trim set way too high regardless of what the limiter was set at it would still cause problems. Before things went south did you hear anything prior?
I used the EQ in the amp. It is the inuke with DSP. Multiple settings in it.
The amp levels were set sych that the red limiting LED was flickering. Output voltage measured was 63 volts which models around 1240 watts in WinISD.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
No, it starts cutting off at 5hz. If you didn't apply a high pass filter in the amps dsp and your sub is ported, it will unload under tune and distroy itself.
Destroy itself as too much excursion mechanically, burn up the voice coil electrically, or both? No, I was not limiting the frequencies below 20Hz with any of the amp EQ settings. The input to the amp was the sub woofer out from a shelf stereo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
Just what is in the amp. From what I understand, the inuke starts cutting off below 20Hz?
Xmax speaker excursion limits according to WinISD 0.7xxxxx modeling don't happen until 16Hz and lower.

The iNukes don't really drop off much until under 5hz.

You built a relatively big box with a relatively high tune using a pro amp that could supply quite a bit of power below the tune with no HPF, this was a recipe for disaster despite the fact the mode of failure appears to be more coil temperature related. I for one will carry this lack of care in design over to lack of care with the understanding and controlling of the coil temps.

The vast majority of driver failures are a result of user error and there is no question the lack of HPF in this setup was user error but without some bumping and clunking prior to failure it appears to be heat related.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
The full story...my driver smoked leaves a lot not understood.


How loud......duration.....all the relevant settings in the equipment etc.


Basically the story of what happened...........not just the ending....;)


What do you think the problem was.........what do you think would have prevented it ?


I have super cheap speakers, but I have everything calibrated for reference and all the proper settings in my equipment and have done some full reference hours on end jam sessions with EDM/bass I love you style music and have had no driver failures..................could just be luck or not. I have had the plate amps on the subs soo hot, holding your finger on there for 3 seconds hurts.

Last jam session included much too much wine and food and lasted about 6 hours......the volume was turned down to loud levels occasionally, but for the most part was at full reference.

I have all speakers calibrated at 75db with the master volume at 0, sub output in the negative on the AVR and gains set so the amp clip lights light up occasionally when a really hard hit happens and a HPF in the DSP and the sub set flat with REW and DSP so there are no huge peaks or dips in FR.

Pioneer elite vsx-lx 301 to a mini DSP to a BGW pro series amp running the amp in dual channels putting out approx. 680 watts per channel to a HT-18 on each channel that is rated at 600 watts in 6.5ft3 sealed cabs.


Something like the above should give a clear picture of what happened and possibly why.
Copy. Added more to original post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,622 Posts
High excursion subs aren't good at rock/metal music,
I think that is part of your problem here.

You need a pair of B&C 21's, or 8 PA-460's.
If you smoke that config, then you are a true basshead...

You don't need more watts, you need more cones. 8 PA-460's would be better than dual B&C's.

You'll listen to my advice the easy way, or the hard way. HEHE :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
No, it starts cutting off at 5hz. If you didn't apply a high pass filter in the amps dsp and your sub is ported, it will unload under tune and distroy itself.
Just checked it is 20Hz.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,374 Posts
A high pass filter is mandatory in DIY ported subs......retail ones have a HPF designed in, but it never hurts there either if you have the capabilities to do so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
608 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
The iNukes don't really drop off much until under 5hz.

You built a relatively big box with a relatively high tune using a pro amp that could supply quite a bit of power below the tune with no HPF, this was a recipe for disaster despite the fact the mode of failure appears to be more coil temperature related. I for one will carry this lack of care in design over to lack of care with the understanding and controlling of the coil temps.

The vast majority of driver failures are a result of user error and there is no question the lack of HPF in this setup was user error but without some bumping and clunking prior to failure it appears to be heat related.
My bad. The amp did have a low (HP?) filter set to cutoff signals below 20Hz. 2nd order LW.
 
  • Like
Reactions: unretarded

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,077 Posts
My bad. The amp did have a low (HP?) filter set to cutoff signals below 20Hz. 2nd order LW.
That is actually a different story, you gave the impression there was no HPF in the chain. If it was a iNuke DSP and you had a HPF then you shouldn't have had any excursion issues (though I didn't model to determine if 2nd order was a high enough slope but it is likely it was).

It sounds like you cooked the coil driving the mid-bass to much for too long. High excursion subs usually lose efficiency in the mid-bass range something there is often tons of in metal and rock which means they need more power in the range and thus create more heat. Pro drivers make a lot more sense for this application as they are designed to deal with lots of power and the resulting heat in the mid-bass range plus they are FAR more efficient in that pass band. Peerless and Dayton 18s on the budget end and obviously the 21" B&Cs et al are some of the best for this type of application. If one has the room I lean toward 8-10 Peerless or Dayton 18s for similar money to a pair of B&C 21s but opinions will vary.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,374 Posts
Just checked it is 20Hz.
So you set a HPF at 20hz ?


Did you verify the box is actually 21hz tune, they seldom come out perfectly tuned to what is planned........



If so, then I would also recommend a stack of PA460`s...........tuned to the high 30`s,low 40`s like a pro sub, or better yet a pro sub !!!!!


4 PA460 horn cabinets ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,746 Posts
The 3k amp has the LP filter set at 20Hz configured as 2nd order linkwitz-riley at cutoff slope of 12dB/octave.
The 3k amp has the HP filter set at 578Hz configured as 4th order linkwitz-riley at cutoff slope of 24dB/octave.
I hope this is a typo.
If not, how about you try to do it right and set HP filter to 20 Hz and set LP filter to like 250 Hz or whatever you like?

High Pass Filter = allows speaker to play frequencies above mentioned frequency
Low pass Filter = allows speaker to play frequencies below mentioned frequency
 
  • Like
Reactions: unretarded
21 - 40 of 76 Posts
Top