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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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In an HTPC MadVR setup the stream splitting and decoding isn't done with MadVR - that duty falls to another piece of software. Frequently nevcairiel's LAV filters I believe. MadVR deals with everything after taking the decoded frames and getting them to the screen.
Ah right, OK then. Thank you for clarifying. Whilst it's not madVR's software that does this in a PC, is it possible that the one that does is superior as compared with that which is used within an external source device?


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no decoding of modern codecs is bit perfect.
so if a play station or a BD play decodes the image doesn't matter it's still bit perfect at this point. the issue is that a bd player can't send this signal it wasn't possible in the past and is not really used in the present.

the difference with madVR compared to the envy is that between the decoder and madVR isn't an HDMI cable.
 

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aka jfinnie
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Ah right, OK then. Thank you for clarifying. Whilst it's not madVR's software that does this in a PC, is it possible that the one that does is superior as compared with that which is used within an external source device?
Yes, but I don't think it is any more likely than it being worse. It should be the same as they're performing a task that has a correct answer. (though short cuts are sometimes taken in both HW and SW, and implementation errors can be present in both). You do have more opportunity to fix any issue if it is in SW in a PC, but you're also more limited in content sources that can take advantage of this.

As far as I'm aware the only sure benefit is that in the HTPC the decoder has an unadulterated native resolution and frame rate 4:2:0 link to the renderer, which the decoder in the stand alone player doesn't benefit from - it sends 4:2:0 internally to some IP or SW block that converts> 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, and ultimately may not even be output at native frame rate and may have been scaled.
 

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Could a firmware “madVR Envy” upgrade to some HDFury device be made by “HDFury developers” to always send an Envy friendly, encoded video signal to madVR Envy, regardless of source?
 

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aka jfinnie
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Could a firmware “madVR Envy” upgrade to some HDFury device be made by “HDFury developers” to always send an Envy friendly, encoded video signal to madVR Envy, regardless of source?
I don't see how it "helps". If your concern is the 4:2:2 conversion taking place in the player, it has still taken place with the HDfury in circuit.
 

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I don't see how it "helps". If your concern is the 4:2:2 conversion taking place in the player, it has still taken place with the HDfury in circuit.
Can't downconvert 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 to 4:2:0? Processing too intense for HDFury?
 

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That would just be adding MORE conversions to the pipeline, not less. The ideal is no conversions up to the Envy.
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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Thank you for your kind words. :)

I agree 100% with the part in bold, which is why I edited my post before your reply to make it clear that the first part was true for ANY video processor, not just for the Envy.

I also specify in my post that "There can be other differences due to settings and processing, as has already been discussed.", but you might have missed that part if you read it too quickly.

Finally, I can only comment about what I see here, with my JVC RS2000, in my modest bat loft (great performance but small room), on a fairly small screen. So you make a good point, my set-up might not allow me to evaluate some of the differences you mention.

Please feel free to send me a Christie Eclipse, along with the room needed to store it, and another room to fit a larger screen (I'm all maxed up here!), and I'd love to see if what appears to me, in my set-up, as insignificant becomes magnified with the Christie (or any other projector that I don't own) on a much larger screen.

**SNIP**

I will happily revise my general comments after a few weeks cosying up with the Eclipse, in my new house (I think it would be more practical than building two new rooms, so thanks in advance). :D

**SNIP**

I accept that you don't have an agenda, please let me free to share here what I can share at this stage. If people disagree with my points, they are free to say so, as you are. :)

Have a great week-end!
The difference in video performance between a madVR HTPC and madVR Envy Extreme, when the source devices are set to the optimal settings, is most certainly not "insignificant".

IMO the projector is very much secondary to this. And whilst a CHRISTIE ECLIPSE will indeed reveal more image detail than any other projector, the comparative difference when using other 'lesser' projectors is still most certainly very significant indeed. With larger sized screens that are more appropriate for carrying out these types of evaluations the difference in video performance is by no means slight.

I think it's best that we simply agree to disagree for now. As and when additional proper A-B comparisons are carried out, the truth of the matter will come out and be confirmed :)



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JVC RS4500 | ST130 G4 135" | MRX 720 | MC303 MC152 | B&W 802D3, HTM1D3, 805D3, 702S2 | 4x15 IB Subs
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The difference in video performance between a madVR HTPC and madVR Envy Extreme, when the source devices are set to the optimal settings, is most certainly not "insignificant".

I think that perhaps the predominant issue here is the fact that the size of your screen is only 80 inches.

IMO the projector is very much secondary to this. And whilst a CHRISTIE ECLIPSE will indeed reveal more image detail than any other projector, the comparative difference when using other 'lesser' projectors is still most certainly very significant indeed. With larger sized screens that are more appropriate for carrying out these types of evaluations the difference in video performance is by no means slight.

I think it's best that we simply agree to disagree for now. As and when additional proper A-B comparisons (using screens larger than 80") are carried out, the truth of the matter will come out and be confirmed :)
Not all players are equal. Which players are you using to compare? And for that matter, what is the content you're comparing?
 

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aka jfinnie
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Can't downconvert 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 to 4:2:0? Processing too intense for HDFury?
It just makes no sense as a strategy, you're taking one conversion of perhaps unknown quality, and adding another conversion of unknown quality.

My understanding is that the HDFury boxes have many such conversions available, but they're not own implemented, they're what come for free in the HDMI port processor devices they use; so "it is what it is".

If you were serious about the thought that this is an important thing to do, you'd do it somewhere that could have the smarts to do it in the way that was appropriate given what the source had done in the first place, which would make it something you'd do in the video processor. You'd ideally characterise exactly how the chroma upsampling was done which would allow you to revert it and then redo it with your chosen algorithm.

I think whether this level or paranoia is beneficial or not will depend on a multitude of things, such as exactly what the source material and device is, seating distance from screen, exactly how the display behaves with 444 YCrCb or RGB input, etc. For me, watching mostly video content on a small-ish woven AT screen with an eShift projector, and about 40 degree viewing angle, it's a definite "meh". :)
 

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Yes, but I don't think it is any more likely than it being worse. It should be the same as they're performing a task that has a correct answer. (though short cuts are sometimes taken in both HW and SW, and implementation errors can be present in both). You do have more opportunity to fix any issue if it is in SW in a PC, but you're also more limited in content sources that can take advantage of this.

As far as I'm aware the only sure benefit is that in the HTPC the decoder has an unadulterated native resolution and frame rate 4:2:0 link to the renderer, which the decoder in the stand alone player doesn't benefit from - it sends 4:2:0 internally to some IP or SW block that converts> 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, and ultimately may not even be output at native frame rate and may have been scaled.
Just doing some research on UHD disk players.
I think one problem might be internal "optimizations" that manufacturers use to alter the output signal to make it "better".
For instance i came across a "Bravia-Mode" of a Sony UBP-X1100ES. It sounds to me as if this switches off some modifications it does when connected to a non-Bravia display:
"Finally on the picture front, the X1100ES carries a Bravia mode that claims to deliver a purer signal from sub-4K video discs to compatible Sony TVs.

Much as I’d like to dismiss this mode as merely a cheeky ploy to tempt you to go ‘Full Sony’ with your AV set up, I have to admit that it did deliver slightly - though only slightly - cleaner, sharper images with a Sony A8F OLED TV than the X1100ES delivered with the Bravia Mode turned off. Note, though, that you can’t use this mode with 4K sources." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2019/07/18/sony-ubp-x1100es-4k-blu-ray-player-review-dicing-with-dolby/#54ecb9ca5291)

So in theory, it´s really just "output 1:1 what´s on the disk", but then all players would look the same which wouldn´t be in favour of the manufactuers. :rolleyes:
 

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The difference in video performance between a madVR HTPC and madVR Envy Extreme, when the source devices are set to the optimal settings, is most certainly not "insignificant".

IMO the projector is very much secondary to this. And whilst a CHRISTIE ECLIPSE will indeed reveal more image detail than any other projector, the comparative difference when using other 'lesser' projectors is still most certainly very significant indeed. With larger sized screens that are more appropriate for carrying out these types of evaluations the difference in video performance is by no means slight.

I think it's best that we simply agree to disagree for now. As and when additional proper A-B comparisons are carried out, the truth of the matter will come out and be confirmed :)

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First of all, let's get precise, as I know it's a quality you value. My screen isn't 80", it's an 88" diag Carada BW 16/9. At that size, 8" count :D.

My screen size is mentioned anytime I post something where it could be relevant, especially when I talk about video quality, which I haven't done yet about Envy because I am under NDA.

I've done it, for example, in the mini-review I've written about my JVC RS2000 on another forum.

If you read that review, you will see that I only compare the PQ to my previous PJs, in my own room, and I don't wax any lyricals about how fabulous the picture is, I try to stick to the facts. I don't make any comparison with competitive products I haven't compared it to myself. I do say that it's the best picture I've seen in my room, which is true, but I also mention a whole list of issues, factual and detailed measurements, bugs, anything I believe a reader might be interested in before making the decision to purchase the product, or how to make the most of it once they have bought it. I also include a list of suggestions for the manufacturer regarding things to fix or improve. I'm hoping that this list for Envy will be very short, because in this case I am modestly trying to help the manufacturer to make the product as best they can.

I think anyone with any integrity working with a manufacturer or a software publisher to help them make the best product they can (I'm not the only person doing this, not to single him out but it is my understanding that @Kris Deering similarly helps JVC, Lumagen or Portrait Display) would do exactly the same, although someone like Kris has the added benefit of a much more significant experience than me with a wide variety of equipment in a wide variety of set-ups, which is something I don't have. I'm not a pro calibrator or reviewer, I only write about my own stuff, in my own room. I frequently exchange with Kris, especially about JVC calibration, I like to think of him as a friend, I think we share a mutual respect and I hope that he feels the same about me. I know that he is closer to Lumagen, he knows that I am closer to madVR, but that doesn't prevent us from helping each other when we can. I have no doubt that if Kris ever writes a comparison between Radiance Pro and Envy (which I hope he does), after having properly set-up both to the best of their abilities, using content representative of the majority of actual content and not demo clips or poorly mastered titles that could make either solution look phenomenal, it will be fair and objective, because otherwise he would lose any credibility. This doesn't have to be a war, and as I have already said, there is room for the LLDV trick in the HD Fury products, the JVC DTM, a Lumagen Radiance Pro, an Envy or a madVR HTPC. Every single user can find what suits their needs and budget best, and as I have already said, it would be ridiculous given the quality offered by any of these solutions compared to what we could get only a few years ago to suggest that anyone using either of these is slumming it.

Although I've made it clear that I was too close to the madVR team and therefore didn't think I could be fully objective to write a comparison between these solutions, you can go through my post history and you will not find A SINGLE POST rubishing Lumagen, which is their main competitor with the Radiance Pro. When I write about something that the Envy as a VP can do, I usually try to add the Radiance Pro to the list in that post if it's something that they both do (for example DTM vs static tonemapping), simply because I think it's fair to do so. This is for three main reasons:


  1. I haven'd had a Lumagen product or seen one in action since the Mini-3D, which is the last external VP I used before I switched to madVR. It was an excellent product at the time. Given that I haven't seen a Radiance Pro in action, I have no idea in which ways it's better or worse than the Envy, so that's a comparison that I can't (and won't) make.
  2. When I was a Lumagen customer, I had an excellent experience with Jim and Patrick. I was not treated any differently from any other customer, but they listened to customer feedback, they were proactively and reactively always trying to improve and fix their products, and most importantly, they do this even when the product has been replaced by a newer model, up to the absolute limit of the hardware. This means that when you buy one of their products, you know you will be cared about, and you know that your investment isn't going to turn into a doorstop when something new and shiny replaces it. I have no reasons to think that this has changed, and this puts Lumagen on a very short list in A/V consumer industry, a list where I also put HD Fury and I have no doubt that madVR will be on that list too, as anyone who knows Mathias and the incredible work he has done for years should as well. I try to help madVR and HD Fury develop their products because I like what they do, I would have tried to help Lumagen (not that they needed me) had they asked me to do so at the time.
  3. Lumagen is, like madVR, a very small company, and I am aware of how damaging negative comments, especially unjustified, can be, especially when they come from someone who has some credibility due to what they have done or posted previously. I hate injustice. I might not be a Lumagen customer, but I have no reasons to hurt that company, so that's why you can't find a single negative post of mine, in this thread or outside of this thread, including in the Radiance Pro thread. I almost never post in a Lumagen thread, or when I do it's to try to help, as I did briefly when Jim started working on their DTM.
If/when I write a technical review about the Envy, it won't be that much about picture quality because I think people should see it in action, in a set-up comparable to theirs, preferably in their own room, with their own sources, before making up their mind and decide for themselves if the improvements, ease of use and everything else is worth the asking price. Especially at that level, and similarily to Trinnov or high-end JVC / Sony etc, it's clearly not for everyone and for many it's reached the point of diminishing returns, which is fine. As I said before, there are lower priced solutions that do a sterling job, so every one can pick their best price/performance ratio. This is certainly what I recommend people do before purchasing a projector, because that's the best way not to give in to any unjustified hype. It won't be a comparative between the different solutions because as I already said I don't have the time, inclination or competence to make such a comparison. I've also said that because of how close I've grown over time to the madVR team, I didn't think I would have the necessary objectivity to do so. I only talk about what's in my room, because I'm not a professional reviewer, I'm just an enthusiast.

The first thing I posted when I received my Envy was that I wouldn't post here much because I was under NDA, and I mainly stuck to that. I might have commented about how silent the Envy was and other things like that because I believed it fit the limits of my NDA, but you won't find a single post of mine about how great the picture quality of the Envy is compared to the competition. In fact, I have posted very little in this thread (or anywhere else, really, because I'm busy), until very recently, mostly because of your recent posts.

I have no idea why you are allowed to talk about the picture quality of the Envy and to compare it to an HTPC, but I can't.

I am under NDA.

Madshi isn't, and has commented on it. I fully agree with his comments.

My recent post, as I said twice now, was about the minor loss in quality that occurs when ANY video processor is inserted in the path, and was answering a specific question about whether a madVR HTPC would necessarily get a worse picture with the Envy inserted in the chain following the recent discussion about video path and so on. I replied that it depends, and shared my theory of load balancing, which madshi confirmed was correct. By the way, I didn't suggest that the Envy needed help from a HTPC, I only said that in some situations, depending on the GPU in the HTPC and the Envy model, the picture might actually be BETTER with an Envy in the path, thanks to load balancing, as this could override the minor loss due to the less direct video path. I haven't tested this yet, and even if I had I wouldn't be able to comment on it because I'm under NDA.

Now you pick on my screen size and make another attempt to silence me and to picture my comments as biased or irrelevant, plus you conveniently snip what doesn't suit you. That's enough.

So I'm going to fill the gaps and ask you what was the size of the screen when you posted these comments, given that it wasn't just you but also many people in the room:

Greeting to all from ISE 2020!

So I just finished an in depth demonstration of the MadVR Envy at ISE 2020, and yes this is indeed situated within the Alcons Pro-Ribbon booth :)

In short, the MadVR Envy is absolutely incredible. The demo was utterly mind-blowing. And this is despite the fact that the room was not perfectly blacked out (it's a trade show after all).

A massive congratulations and thank you to both @lovingdvd and @madshi for all their hard work and Mathias' creative genius in developing and bringing these products to market.

The improvements that MadVR Envy makes with respect to the video performance is way, way above and beyond 'just' dynamic tone-mapping with respect to HDR.

The difference in video performance is not slight or subtle.

It's literally as if everything is better. Furthermore, the resultant image that is produced looks practically 3D and the vanillla baseline in comparison extremely 2D. The image looks more real. The colors are better. The luminance dynamic range is very considerably increased. And this is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I have to admit that I was somewhat dubious regarding how effective the claimed artificial intelligence bright highlight and shadow detail recovery and optimisation would actuall be in reality. Furthermore, when I heard that the maximum setting is labelled 'Insane' I took this to be hyperbole... but it's not. Seriously, it really IS completely INSANE! I don't know how @madshi has done it but I am convinced that voodoo is involved! :p

One particular video clip in this regard was as shocking as being hit in the face with a baseball bat. It was a shot of clouds in the sky on a bright day, wherein with the vanilla a lot of the image is blown out to white, and seriously we are talking about 1/4 of the screen here; and yet the MadVR Envy fixed the image 100% to perfection. There were literally gasps from everyone in the room, myself included.

@lovingdvd and @madshi congratulations again. You have one hell of a product here.

And I hope that I am not going to upset the apple cart by saying this, but I consider it to be important.

There has been very understandably a lot of comparison versus the Lumagen PRO and questioning regards which is better.

Well I am going to answer that question for you.

It's the MadVR Envy, pure and simple. And it's not even close. Seriously, as compared with the Lumagen PRO it's on a totally different level. Which I have to say I was somewhat expecting given the difference in raw processing power for starters, let alone @madshi genius programming and algorithms etc.


Don't get me wrong. The MadVR Envy does not make Lumagen PRO any less or worse of a product that it is; wherein it really is a fantastic product. It's simply that the MadVR Envy is way, way, better.

Personally, I consider the pricing to be absolutely worth it and suffice to say I ordered one immediately on the spot.

I very much look forward to spending some considerable handson time with the MadVR Envy ASAP.

Hands down winner of BEST NEW PRODUCT at ISE 2020!!!

Very, very, well done!!! :cool:

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Also, I'm glad to see that after just a few months you are now fully converted to the superiority of madVR on a HTPC, but this isn't what you wrote at the time:

Model names are yet to be confirmed; however, it is my understanding that the Envy PRO will be the 'base' model and something like Envy 'Super-Douper-Whoopie-Doopie' will be the upper model :p

This was the upper model :)

Yes I have seen madVR previously. However, I have not to date used it a lot because of the pain in the ass setting up and maintaining an HTPC as well as the fact that the majority of my movie collection is on disc.

The fact of the matter is that at the present time the algorithms are the same with respect to both the HTPC version and Envy models, meaning that you will be experiencing the same performance if you have a powerful HTPC.

However, it is my understanding that the Envy will indeed diverge and become superior to the HTPC version over time. But for now the primary reasons for buying an Envy are the convenience, user friendliness and the ability to use madVR with ANY and ALL sources, including streaming content and discs.


The difference is very considerable indeed, and especially so because the tone-mapping in the Sony 5000ES is pants.

However, the improvements with respect to the dark end of the spectrum were limited by the SONY 5000ES' poor black floor.

It's very easy to setup, configure and use. Also, calibrating 3D LUTs is very simply done vai CalMAN

The madVR's AI Bright Highlights and Shadow Detail recovery is phenomenal.
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Another opportunity to rule out the screen size:

There are 3 settings on the Envy PRO model, namely Low, Medium, and High; and 4 settings on the Envy 'Super-Douper-Whoopie-Doopie' model ( @madshi I am going to keep calling it this until you guys pick a name! ;) :D :p) namely Low, Medium, High, and Insane.

What you are seeing there is the Envy 'Super-Douper-Whoopie-Doopie' model with the highlight and shadow detail recovery set to Insane :)


Don't worry, you most certainly will ;)

I just finished my latest two home theater builds here in the UK and I will be hosting some open day A/V parties here shortly wherein folks who are interested from these forums will be able to attend, wherein, amongst other things, I will be demoing the madVR Envy. You will be able to see what it is doing versus vanilla as well as the JVC DTM :)

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What was the screen size in these demo parties, and what did the people say?

Yeah, I kinda deduced that :p

I did have a Lumagen here...

...but no longer, as I now have something better ;) :D

🤣 🤣 🤣
Do you regret selling your Lumagen? Or did you find something better than the Envy, for those who, like yourself a few months ago, are still not interested in getting one "because of the pain in the ass setting up and maintaining an HTPC as well as the fact that the majority of my movie collection is on disc."

Haha... Sorry about that! :D

The plan is to couple the world's best video processor with the world's best video display, namely the madVR Envy with the Christie Eclipse, at the upcoming demo event with respect to the Christie Eclipse on Saturday 7th March :)

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What did you use during that demo, and what did people who saw that demo on an Eclipse say at the time?

Now, another of your comments about HTPC vs Envy, which isn't very different from what I posted in recently:

Yes, there is.

Specifically, the huge difference is that unlike HTPC madVR with the Envy you can input ALL sources, including everything from Blu-Ray and DVD discs, to streaming content via media players, to media files. With HTPC madVR you are limited and restricted to using only the video content that resides on your computer's hard drive (and/or played back via your computer's built-in UHD Blu-Ray Disc Drive).

Secondly, another difference is that the Envy is essentially 'plug and play' and is incredibly easy to install, setup, use, and maintain; unlike HTPC madVR.

As far as the video performance itself is concerned currently the HTPC madVR and the Envy currently share the same algorithms; however, it is my understanding that the intention is for the Envy's firmware/software to evolve above and beyond that of the HTPC version. However, the if / when / how is yet to be determined


So as of right now the primary target demographic for the Envy is folks who either wish to be able to use madVR with respect to all types of video sources (or more than just the video content residing on your computer hard drive) and/or don't want the hassle of having to build, setup, use, and maintain a HTPC. And early adopters, who purchase an Envy, will also benefit from said aforementioned evolution above and beyond the video performance of the HTPC version if/when it happens :)
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What has changed?

Now, something about which we both agree, because I'd rather end this on a positive note:

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I appreciate and understand that all the secrecy and hence lack of comprehensive information at the present time regarding the madVR Envy products will be frustrating for some.

However, it should be noted that @madshi and @lovingdvd are perfectionists who want to deliver the absolute best possible product for us all.

The information and details that you all want are coming.

So, whilst I know it's hard all things considered, please be a little patient.

Trust me when I say that it will be more than worth the wait. These are truly phenomenal products :)

Best,
Nigel
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OK, I get that you are now saying that all this was premature ejaculation, that you have discovered huge flaws in the product in the meantime and that you feel at liberty to share them because apparently you're not under NDA anymore, and that it is important to be objective, precise and provide the right information to people so they can make an informed decision, thanks to your great objectivity and attention to detail through a scientific evaluation, bla, bla, bla.

I get it, and I commend you for it. I wish everyone would have the integrity to contradict themselves as excessively as you did in this thread, simply because they have seen the light and place consumer information above everything else, without any other motive or agenda (which, by the way, I agree you don't have).

I didn't agree with you at the time, because my list of things to improve in the Envy, at the time, was a lot longer than it is now. Also, seeing the differences between the JVC DTM and madVR/Envy, and knowing that the Radiance Pro was better than the JVC DTM, I didn't think that such extreme differences were possible unless extreme demo content or poorly mastered titles are used in a demo. But, being under NDA, I didn't challenge you.

I'm aware that I couldn't possibly see on my 88" diag screen everything you can see on your much larger screen, and clearly the screen size is responsible for the difference between your comments and mine to date in this thread. Your larger screen and better projector certainly magnify both the positives and the negatives, compared to what I see here, so at least it's fully consistent in its accuracy.

However, unlike you, I haven't made ANY positive comments on the Envy picture quality yet, because unlike you, I am under NDA and unlike you, I take my time before making comments on something that I evaluate, especially when such evaluation isn't complete as the product isn't finished yet. Let's say that I like foreplay, and if I can, I try to make it last :)

Unlike you, I haven't posted, ever, a single detrimental post about Lumagen, madVR's main competitor. I have also not changed drastically my opinion about either product within just a couple of months, because I have NEVER expressed my opinion about EITHER product. So who is biased here?

Anyway, I am still evaluating the product, doing my best to help the team make it as good as it can be during this beta test, and as I said, when/if I post my first impressions, feel free to comment then. If you think my technical feedback on Envy is biased, unfair, uncomplete, lacks integrity, please do it then.

In the meantime, I have my hands tied by my NDA, so please back off, unless you want to look like the bully who only hits those who can't defend themselves. I think I've given you a fair few chances to back off before, both publicly and privately, sadly you didn't seize them.

Because of you, I have spent a lot more time than I usually do in this thread, and I have work to do (as I'm sure you do), so if you don't mind, I'd like to get back to it. All my questions above are rhetorical, so don't feel like you have to answer them.

I promise that if you don't bring me back in, I will stay out, at least for a while :)

Enjoy the rest of your week-end, I plan to spend mine with my family.
 

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Wow. That was one helluva retort. I appreciate all the effort and courage it took to create the epic post above. You have spoken your truth. That is all anyone can strive to do. Not many succeed. You 100% do and did.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

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Greetings,

To me it's going to be very-very interesting to see how all this Turns-Out when all is said and done.
No more (Testing), No more (Guessing) just the end results .............

MadVR ENVY or does the already (Tried & True) Lumagen come out on Top from the Public-Sector that doesn't get anything FREE from "Either" camp.


Terry
 

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ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE AV
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First of all, let's get precise, as I know it's a quality you value. My screen isn't 80", it's an 88" diag Carada BW 16/9. At that size, 8" count :D.

My screen size is mentioned anytime I post something where it could be relevant, especially when I talk about video quality, which I haven't done yet about Envy because I am under NDA.

I've done it, for example, in the mini-review I've written about my JVC RS2000 on another forum.

If you read that review, you will see that I only compare the PQ to my previous PJs, in my own room, and I don't wax any lyricals about how fabulous the picture is, I try to stick to the facts. I don't make any comparison with competitive products I haven't compared it to myself. I do say that it's the best picture I've seen in my room, which is true, but I also mention a whole list of issues, factual and detailed measurements, bugs, anything I believe a reader might be interested in before making the decision to purchase the product, or how to make the most of it once they have bought it. I also include a list of suggestions for the manufacturer regarding things to fix or improve. I'm hoping that this list for Envy will be very short, because in this case I am modestly trying to help the manufacturer to make the product as best they can.

I think anyone with any integrity working with a manufacturer or a software publisher to help them make the best product they can (I'm not the only person doing this, not to single him out but it is my understanding that @Kris Deering similarly helps JVC, Lumagen or Portrait Display) would do exactly the same, although someone like Kris has the added benefit of a much more significant experience than me with a wide variety of equipment in a wide variety of set-ups, which is something I don't have. I'm not a pro calibrator or reviewer, I only write about my own stuff, in my own room. I frequently exchange with Kris, especially about JVC calibration, I like to think of him as a friend, I think we share a mutual respect and I hope that he feels the same about me. I know that he is closer to Lumagen, he knows that I am closer to madVR, but that doesn't prevent us from helping each other when we can. I have no doubt that if Kris ever writes a comparison between Radiance Pro and Envy (which I hope he does), after having properly set-up both to the best of their abilities, using content representative of the majority of actual content and not demo clips or poorly mastered titles that could make either solution look phenomenal, it will be fair and objective, because otherwise he would lose any credibility. This doesn't have to be a war, and as I have already said, there is room for the LLDV trick in the HD Fury products, the JVC DTM, a Lumagen Radiance Pro, an Envy or a madVR HTPC. Every single user can find what suits their needs and budget best, and as I have already said, it would be ridiculous given the quality offered by any of these solutions compared to what we could get only a few years ago to suggest that anyone using either of these is slumming it.

Although I've made it clear that I was too close to the madVR team and therefore didn't think I could be fully objective to write a comparison between these solutions, you can go through my post history and you will not find A SINGLE POST rubishing Lumagen, which is their main competitor with the Radiance Pro. When I write about something that the Envy as a VP can do, I usually try to add the Radiance Pro to the list in that post if it's something that they both do (for example DTM vs static tonemapping), simply because I think it's fair to do so. This is for three main reasons:


  1. I haven'd had a Lumagen product or seen one in action since the Mini-3D, which is the last external VP I used before I switched to madVR. It was an excellent product at the time. Given that I haven't seen a Radiance Pro in action, I have no idea in which ways it's better or worse than the Envy, so that's a comparison that I can't (and won't) make.
  2. When I was a Lumagen customer, I had an excellent experience with Jim and Patrick. I was not treated any differently from any other customer, but they listened to customer feedback, they were proactively and reactively always trying to improve and fix their products, and most importantly, they do this even when the product has been replaced by a newer model, up to the absolute limit of the hardware. This means that when you buy one of their products, you know you will be cared about, and you know that your investment isn't going to turn into a doorstop when something new and shiny replaces it. I have no reasons to think that this has changed, and this puts Lumagen on a very short list in A/V consumer industry, a list where I also put HD Fury and I have no doubt that madVR will be on that list too, as anyone who knows Mathias and the incredible work he has done for years should as well. I try to help madVR and HD Fury develop their products because I like what they do, I would have tried to help Lumagen (not that they needed me) had they asked me to do so at the time.
  3. Lumagen is, like madVR, a very small company, and I am aware of how damaging negative comments, especially unjustified, can be, especially when they come from someone who has some credibility due to what they have done or posted previously. I hate injustice. I might not be a Lumagen customer, but I have no reasons to hurt that company, so that's why you can't find a single negative post of mine, in this thread or outside of this thread, including in the Radiance Pro thread. I almost never post in a Lumagen thread, or when I do it's to try to help, as I did briefly when Jim started working on their DTM.
If/when I write a technical review about the Envy, it won't be that much about picture quality because I think people should see it in action, in a set-up comparable to theirs, preferably in their own room, with their own sources, before making up their mind and decide for themselves if the improvements, ease of use and everything else is worth the asking price. Especially at that level, and similarily to Trinnov or high-end JVC / Sony etc, it's clearly not for everyone and for many it's reached the point of diminishing returns, which is fine. As I said before, there are lower priced solutions that do a sterling job, so every one can pick their best price/performance ratio. This is certainly what I recommend people do before purchasing a projector, because that's the best way not to give in to any unjustified hype. It won't be a comparative between the different solutions because as I already said I don't have the time, inclination or competence to make such a comparison. I've also said that because of how close I've grown over time to the madVR team, I didn't think I would have the necessary objectivity to do so. I only talk about what's in my room, because I'm not a professional reviewer, I'm just an enthusiast.

The first thing I posted when I received my Envy was that I wouldn't post here much because I was under NDA, and I mainly stuck to that. I might have commented about how silent the Envy was and other things like that because I believed it fit the limits of my NDA, but you won't find a single post of mine about how great the picture quality of the Envy is compared to the competition. In fact, I have posted very little in this thread (or anywhere else, really, because I'm busy), until very recently, mostly because of your recent posts.

I have no idea why you are allowed to talk about the picture quality of the Envy and to compare it to an HTPC, but I can't.

I am under NDA.

Madshi isn't, and has commented on it. I fully agree with his comments.

My recent post, as I said twice now, was about the minor loss in quality that occurs when ANY video processor is inserted in the path, and was answering a specific question about whether a madVR HTPC would necessarily get a worse picture with the Envy inserted in the chain following the recent discussion about video path and so on. I replied that it depends, and shared my theory of load balancing, which madshi confirmed was correct. By the way, I didn't suggest that the Envy needed help from a HTPC, I only said that in some situations, depending on the GPU in the HTPC and the Envy model, the picture might actually be BETTER with an Envy in the path, thanks to load balancing, as this could override the minor loss due to the less direct video path. I haven't tested this yet, and even if I had I wouldn't be able to comment on it because I'm under NDA.

Now you pick on my screen size and make another attempt to silence me and to picture my comments as biased or irrelevant, plus you conveniently snip what doesn't suit you. That's enough.

So I'm going to fill the gaps and ask you what was the size of the screen when you posted these comments, given that it wasn't just you but also many people in the room:



Also, I'm glad to see that after just a few months you are now fully converted to the superiority of madVR on a HTPC, but this isn't what you wrote at the time:



Another opportunity to rule out the screen size:



What was the screen size in these demo parties, and what did the people say?



Do you regret selling your Lumagen? Or did you find something better than the Envy, for those who, like yourself a few months ago, are still not interested in getting one "because of the pain in the ass setting up and maintaining an HTPC as well as the fact that the majority of my movie collection is on disc."



What did you use during that demo, and what did people who saw that demo on an Eclipse say at the time?

Now, another of your comments about HTPC vs Envy, which isn't very different from what I posted in recently:



What has changed?

Now, something about which we both agree, because I'd rather end this on a positive note:



OK, I get that you are now saying that all this was premature ejaculation, that you have discovered huge flaws in the product in the meantime and that you feel at liberty to share them because apparently you're not under NDA anymore, and that it is important to be objective, precise and provide the right information to people so they can make an informed decision, thanks to your great objectivity and attention to detail through a scientific evaluation, bla, bla, bla.

I get it, and I commend you for it. I wish everyone would have the integrity to contradict themselves as excessively as you did in this thread, simply because they have seen the light and place consumer information above everything else, without any other motive or agenda (which, by the way, I agree you don't have).

I didn't agree with you at the time, because my list of things to improve in the Envy, at the time, was a lot longer than it is now. Also, seeing the differences between the JVC DTM and madVR/Envy, and knowing that the Radiance Pro was better than the JVC DTM, I didn't think that such extreme differences were possible unless extreme demo content or poorly mastered titles are used in a demo. But, being under NDA, I didn't challenge you.

I'm aware that I couldn't possibly see on my 88" diag screen everything you can see on your much larger screen, and clearly the screen size is responsible for the difference between your comments and mine to date in this thread. Your larger screen and better projector certainly magnify both the positives and the negatives, compared to what I see here, so at least it's fully consistent in its accuracy.

However, unlike you, I haven't made ANY positive comments on the Envy picture quality yet, because unlike you, I am under NDA and unlike you, I take my time before making comments on something that I evaluate, especially when such evaluation isn't complete as the product isn't finished yet. Let's say that I like foreplay, and if I can, I try to make it last :)

Unlike you, I haven't posted, ever, a single detrimental post about Lumagen, madVR's main competitor. I have also not changed drastically my opinion about either product within just a couple of months, because I have NEVER expressed my opinion about EITHER product. So who is biased here?

Anyway, I am still evaluating the product, doing my best to help the team make it as good as it can be during this beta test, and as I said, when/if I post my first impressions, feel free to comment then. If you think my technical feedback on Envy is biased, unfair, uncomplete, lacks integrity, please do it then.

In the meantime, I have my hands tied by my NDA, so please back off, unless you want to look like the bully who only hits those who can't defend themselves. I think I've given you a fair few chances to back off before, both publicly and privately, sadly you didn't seize them.

Because of you, I have spent a lot more time than I usually do in this thread, and I have work to do (as I'm sure you do), so if you don't mind, I'd like to get back to it. All my questions above are rhetorical, so don't feel like you have to answer them.

I promise that if you don't bring me back in, I will stay out, at least for a while :)

Enjoy the rest of your week-end, I plan to spend mine with my family
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Manni,

Firstly, I meant to remove all mention of screen size from my previous post because it is a Red Herring and confuses the issue, but it was like 4 am here when I edited the post so I missed that sentence.

Secondly, this post of yours is a little unnecessary don't you think? In my posts I have been nothing but respectful of you. We should be able to discuss both the positives and negatives of A/V products in a relaxed adult manner. Quite frankly your tone and attitude is entirely uncalled for. You have now resorted to attacking me, reposting my previous posts, and are for God knows what reason trying to paint a picture that is not true, which I have to say is disappointing. You are making all sorts of statements about what I am supposedly doing here which could not be more untrue. I will not respond in kind. You are too cynical. If you knew me better you would not be acting this way :)

Let's discuss the PRODUCT not EACH OTHER please.

Those who know me and follow my posts will know that I am extremely passionate about A/V and this reflects in my posts and my reviews. Those who have met me will know this applies to how I am in person as well. I will not apologise for this. You and I are two very different personalities.

In your post you are attempting to paint a picture that I am now seeking to pooh-pooh the madVR Envy when I was previously overwhelmingly positive about it, and hence I am contradicting myself. This could not be more untrue. There is no contradiction here. I meant absolutely everything I said then as well as now. Plus I have no hidden agenda.

As such, I stand by all of my posts, wherein by reposting them now you will have noted I did not go back and delete them or even edit them at all. Think about that for a minute.

When someone talks about the negatives of a product this does not negate the positives. And all of the positives that I have stated in all of these posts of mine remain.

You keep referring to the fact you are under NDA and so cannot say anything, only to then proceed to make lengthy posts saying a lot actually.

The crux of the matter is that if you had not repeatedly made statements along the lines that the difference in video performance between the madVR Envy and a madVR HTPC is "insignificant" then I would feel the need to respond and correct you. So it is not actually me who has been carrying on this discussion. It's actually you. I was responding to YOUR posts.

You have also cherry-picked posts of mine out of context, which again, whether accidental (I will give you the benefit of the doubt) or not, paints a picture that is not true. When in fact I have made considerable effort to present a neutral and balanced perspective here, such as is made clear by this post of mine, which is one of many such examples by the way:

Absolutely agree with everything you say here :)

madVR HTPC has the advantage of producing the best video performance, but with the disadvantage of being more complex to setup and use than a madVR Envy, and can't be used with streaming sources.

Whereas, the madVR Envy has the disadvantage of producing comparatively inferior video performance, however this is potentially offset by the advantage of being simpler and easier to setup and use, and the fact that, unlike the madVR HTPC, it be used with ALL sources.

I should add that when viewing madVR Envy by itself it looks great. It's simply that the madVR HTPC's video performance is better. And it is only when doing A-B comparisons versus a madVR HTPC that you can see the difference in video performance, which is not something that is going to be done very often!

It would be cool if @madshi could find a source device manufacturer who would be willing to produce a modified version of a media player which both (1) Uses the madVR renderer; and (2) Outputs the native pure unadulterated 24p 4:2:0 video signal... A madVR Media Player, with support of all disc formats and streaming? Yes please, I'd buy that in a heartbreat :cool:


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What I have said here is 100% factually correct. So like I have said you are attempting to paint a picture that is not true. Please stop it.

Now to the crux of the matter.

NO, the difference in comparative video performance between a madVR Envy and a madVR HTPC is by no means "insignificant". Sorry, but you are just plain WRONG about this.

But the issue here is that by having a massive argument with me about this fact the whole matter has been blown out of proportion. If you could have simply accepted this, or simply accepted my repeated requests to agree to disagree, then I would not have felt the need to respond in kind when you continued to post misinformation regarding this fact. So it is in fact YOU, not ME that has carried this on. I would much prefer to put the matter to bed. I have said so, and will say so again, let's wait until others have carried out the same A-B comparisons and post their findings.

And just to make abundantly clearly my own perspective here... All of my overwhelming positive feedback regarding the madVR Envy still stands. At the time I was aware of several negative aspects which I did not mention at the time because the product was still in beta phase product development. The good news is that almost all of these have been eradicated and the product development has gone very well. There is still work to be done. **BUT** I have absolute confidence in @madshi that these will be addressed in time. The United States business side is not yet finalized. For these reasons we are not getting on board with respect to selling the Envy at the present time. As and when these situations progress we may very well do so and I remain very excited about the huge potential of the product.

The reality is that with respect to my target objective here, namely achieving the absolute ultimate in video performance with respect to all sources, there quite simply is NO perfect product solution at the present time.

ALL of the (1) madVR HTPC; (2) madVR Envy; and (3) Lumagen PRO have their positives and negatives.

I have been open and have discussed all of these in detail in my previous posts.

The latest regarding the Lumagen PRO is that it's DTM is considerably better than when we previously evaluated it, following three major updates plus making use of the settings hidden away within the Service Menu. ALL three products deliver excellent DTM performance. However, we have found there to be a couple of negatives regarding the Lumagen PRO, the both of which we are in process of addressing.

The madVR HTPC at the present time produces significantly superior video performance as compared with the madVR Envy; however, as I have stated in my previous posts, repeatedly, is a colossal pain in the arse to setup and maintain and you can't use it with all sources.

The madVR Envy has inferior video performance as compared with the madVR HTPC but this is potentially offset by the fact it is simply and easy to setup and use, its Plug N Play, and it can be used with all sources.

Given our objective, someone suggested using both a madVR HTPC for all content that could be used with it and a madVR Envy for everything else; but this is not an ideal solution. So the situation is what it is.

Like I had said, we should be able to discuss both the strengths and weaknesses of A/V products without offense being taken where none is intended or resorting to discussing eachother instead of the products.

I will finish by saying that I would like to apologise if anything I have posted has for reasons unknown rubbed you up the wrong way. This was never my intention. However, if you continue to make statements about the product which are not true, then please do not be surprised or upset when I make a post correcting you.

Like I have said, I have nothing but the most tremendous respect for you, as well as your exceptionally high quantity of invaluable contributions to the forums and the worldwide A/V industry. And I am by no means blowing smoke up your arse in saying so. I genuinely mean this and have been saying so to everyone with whom I have been discussing this matter, whether it be on the phone or via email, off the forum. You've got me wrong. Pure and simple.

Let's bury the hatchet, shake hands, and get back to discussing the products and not eachother please. And with respect to this particular topic, as I have repeatedly requested, let's simply agree to disagree for the time being, and await others to carry out their own proper A-B comparisons and feedback accordingly :)


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Seeing as I am involved in this debate, my previous statement was not to take away from the Envy, it was not to sway anyone from purchasing one.

Madvr HTPC is the winner when it comes to picture quality. Not because it currently has more features, I am expecting Envy will surpass Madvr HTPC soon with features. Madvr HTPC delivers the better image because of its infrastructure. It is the purest video path from source to output. Adding more features, adding chroma tricks, maximizing settings and upgrading the GPU in the Envy won’t change the advantage Madvr HTPC delivers.

But the complexity of using a HTPC does not work for everyone. We can say this VP is sharper, that one is softer but none of this has anything to do with my original statement. Madvr HTPC has the advantage when it comes to image quality.

It would be unfair for me to expect this thread to fade into the sunset after all forums are for healthy debate but it would be best if this matter can be put to bed. The difference is not insignificant. It is considerable.

 

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Unfortunatelly this "discussion" has gone into a totally wrong direction. For people who haven't seen neither the Envy nor a madVR HTPC in action this recent discussion now must sound highly confusing when 2 insiders seem to disgree that much (as it seems). As far as I could see there was a general agreement that the player that feeds an Envy can result in a poorer quality (compared to a HTPC) because the source material might be altered. The finding of differences I have realized myself. There were several technical explanations (by Madshi, Manni) why such differences can result.
However I still disagree that the DTM produced by a HTPC and an Envy are significantly different by principle. I have a HTPC with a GeForce RTX 2080 Ti (one of the best cards available). So rendering times are fine but lots of the features are not really necessary - in other words: I think you do not miss much for DTM and upscaling quality when you just buy an Envy Pro ;) - even compared to an absolute high end HTPC.

But this is my opinion only. And I might revise this any time in case I'd made observations that would contradict this. So far this is clearly not the case.

Statements like
The madVR HTPC at the present time produces significantly superior video performance as compared with the madVR Envy;
are suggesting that it was proven or fact. It is not yet until some evidence is presented. Actually it is just another opinion which might be revised as well (again).
 

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Unfortunatelly this "discussion" has gone into a totally wrong direction. For people who haven't seen neither the Envy nor a madVR HTPC in action this recent discussion now must sound highly confusing when 2 insiders seem to disgree that much (as it seems). As far as I could see there was a general agreement that the player that feeds an Envy can result in a poorer quality (compared to a HTPC) because the source material might be altered. The finding of differences I have realized myself. There were several technical explanations (by Madshi, Manni) why such differences can result.
However I still disagree that the DTM produced by a HTPC and an Envy are significantly different by principle. I have a HTPC with a GeForce RTX 2080 Ti (one of the best cards available). So rendering times are fine but lots of the features are not really necessary - in other words: I think you do not miss much for DTM and upscaling quality when you just buy an Envy Pro ;) - even compared to an absolute high end HTPC.

But this is my opinion only. And I might revise this any time in case I'd made observations that would contradict this. So far this is clearly not the case.

Statements like are suggesting that it was proven or fact. It is not yet until some evidence is presented. Actually it is just another opinion which might be revised as well (again).
I am referring to overall video performance. The difference in overall video performance is very significant indeed.

And for what it's worth you just had @Alan Gouger post his opinion regarding this, which agrees with my perspective ^^^

And here is another posted on another forum that does so as well, and this by an individual who knows what they are doing and had all of his sources setup optimally etc.. (I queried this via PM):



Furthermore, I know of at least two additional people who have independently arrived at the same conclusions. So that's FIVE people all saying the same thing.

Anyway, since it would appear that my input is not welcomed here I will leave it there and I will cease posting in this thread.

Anyone who wants to believe that the comparative video performance between a madVR HTPC and madVR Envy can be rendered "insignificant" simply by optimizing the settings on your source device then please by all means go right ahead.




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@ARROW-AV
Like I wrote I have seen very significant differences depending what player was used to feed the Envy. So this may already be the reason to explain this ;):)
Imagine a person who just uses for the Envy a player that prepares the signal the wrong way and compares this then to a HTPC - this person might jump easily to wrong conclusions.
 
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