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Thanks for that useful information. So when in source direct mode, the LX500 hands over the original video and audio to the pre-pro without tampering with it - is that right ?

What benefit would the LX800 give you over the Oppo 203 when used with the Envy?

PS - I suppose the HDR metadata would also be handed over to the pre-pro. Have you connected the Envy between your pre-pro or AV Receiver and your display device ?
Every player, even when in its Source Direct mode, scales the 4:2:0 content on UHD 4K24 discs to either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 because the HDMI 2.0 specifications do not include 4K24 4:2:0. So you can't say "untouched". Madshi mentioned that he hopes to find player manufacturers that might enable 4:2:0 output.

HDR10 metadata is, of course, passed along from the player but the Envy doesn't need it since it examines each frame of the content.
 

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Every player, even when in its Source Direct mode, scales the 4:2:0 content on UHD 4K24 discs to either 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 because the HDMI 2.0 specifications do not include 4K24 4:2:0. So you can't say "untouched". Madshi mentioned that he hopes to find player manufacturers that might enable 4:2:0 output.

HDR10 metadata is, of course, passed along from the player but the Envy doesn't need it since it examines each frame of the content.
You have missed an episode :)

Madshi also indicated in a recent post that he had found a way to "undo" the chroma upscaling of the Oppo when 4:4:4 is sent by the Oppo (refresh rate below 50/60p, where 4:2:0 can't be sent natively) in order to get back to 4:2:0 and do the chroma upscaling properly in Envy. This is coming in a beta f/w soon.

This means that if you have an Oppo (or clone) set to the correct settings, you can effectively send 4:2:0 to Envy. :)

It might be possible to do this with other sources using similar "reversible" chroma upscaling algo, but I'll let @madshi clarify.
 

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Would Oppo 203 video > Nad > Envy > RS4500 also work ?

Easier to run one HDMI to the pre pro
I'm doing Oppo (and all my other sources) > Denon X8500H > Envy > HD fury Maestro > JVC RS2000 and that works fine (it would also work without the Maestro in the chain of course) :)
 

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Why is Envy being compared so rigorously to HTPC madVR? Shouldn’t we be comparing Envy to Lumagen. After all, that’s the true competitor. Right? The more (Envy vs Lumagen) screenshots the better. And functionality compares would be great also. What is the most outstanding differential between the two? Is it related to function set, picture quality or something else? NDA’s stop this critical knowledge from appearing. I would terminate them sooner than later for customer peace of mind. Secrecy for NDA purposes is one thing but after a while they become counterintuitive to the process. :rolleyes:

edit: Just use Oppo reference player for a level playing field and compare.

Madshi: That's the Challenge I want to see. You pick the video and scene. Not sure how you grab the Lumagen screenshot, but I bet you can figure it out. :)
 

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This means that if you have an Oppo (or clone) set to the correct settings, you can effectively send 4:2:0 to Envy. :)

It might be possible to do this with other sources using similar "reversible" chroma upscaling algo, but I'll let @madshi clarify.
This is consistent to what friend of mine has found : he is using a Zappiti 4K HDR Pro as a source for his Envy. He is in contact with Zappiti and they told him that the Zappiti is using hardware that is very similar to the Oppo player. He also found that 4:2:0 works fine with his Sony VW870 with no or very liitle banding which can be a problem with other settings. I was a bit surprised that 4:2:0 is fine here because normally it is advised to use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 (and not 4:2:0).

I hope others will test and confirm this finding.
 
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edit: Just use Oppo reference player for a level playing field and compare.

Madshi: That's the Challenge I want to see. You pick the video and scene. Not sure how you grab the Lumagen screenshot, but I bet you can figure it out. :)
how is that a fair playing field by using a device that was optimised for one processor but not the other?

just as a reminder the changes and the "undo" algorithm only affect chroma and it will not be the same as untouched which was supposed to be of not significant difference .
if after this change it's claimed to look significant better i don't even know anymore...

i'm still speechless that a device which can not even send 420 lossless is supposed to be good but i don't know what the avg war crime of other devices is. they have to do quite a lot to beat a device that uses the worst chroma scaler available and that moves chroma around for the fun of it.
 

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how is that a fair playing field by using a device that was optimised for one processor but not the other?

just as a reminder the changes and the "undo" algorithm only affect chroma and it will not be the same as untouched which was supposed to be of not significant difference .
if after this change it's claimed to look significant better i don't even know anymore...

i'm still speechless that a device which can not even send 420 lossless is supposed to be good but i don't know what the avg war crime of other devices is. they have to do quite a lot to beat a device that uses the worst chroma scaler available and that moves chroma around for the fun of it.
The main difference is source direct (native luma resolution). Any source unable to send the native resolution is a non-optimal source, because it takes away one of the advantages of using an external processor with a better luma upscaling than the source or the display.

The Oppo (or clone) can send 4:2:0, but only at 50/60p. No other CE device currently does better. Given that it's one of the few with source direct (native resolution) and that the chroma upscaling algo it uses with the correct settings can be "undone" by Envy to apply better upscaling to chroma as well, that's why it's one of the better sources available (for disc based content).

You get native resolution and 4:2:0, so all the goodness of the external VP applies, not just some.

I can't see what's difficult to understand about that?
 

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because the test says it can't do that.
it will alter 420 50/60 hz and that can not be undone without damage.

and why should other devices even touch luma when they are outputting 422 from a 420 source that'S the point of subsampling the difference is only chroma.
 

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because the test says it can't do that.
it will alter 420 50/60 hz and that can not be undone without damage.

and why should other devices even touch luma when they are outputting 422 from a 420 source that'S the point of subsampling the difference is only chroma.
I think I understand your concerns. But, what other source device(s) would provide a better impartial A/B test?
The compares probably should stay with reference players (or clones) for the initial testing.

In the end, we want Envy and Lumagen to stand on their own two feet.
Using all controls, settings and internal processing they can muster for the best results, should be allowed.
And VP detailed settings used should be disclosed, of course.
That would only be fair and represent a real world experience.

Any other constraints you see needed for a fair test?

edit: Ideally, we would have Lumagen provide their own screenshots for Envy to compare to. But I doubt that will happen. Unless they think they might have the upper-hand and want to play ball. Time will tell. :)
 

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a PC would provide a better source device for such a test because you are now in control of the chroma scaling.

just to make that clear if the envy would undo the processing of most devices if would be fine to use a device where it can do it but it's currently planned for one device and that would be cherry picking. if the undo algo wouldn't be used then the oppo is fine too because both device deal with the same problem but i would avoid chroma test pattern for both devices NN scaling is really not up to the task...
 

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I think the native player discussion is going a bit overboard. There is never going to be a perfect solution. The Oppo has to do some chroma upscaling and has a quarter pixel of chroma delay. The Panasonic players all output 4K with no source direct for resolution. Most streaming devices have to do not only chroma upsampling but also don't output native resolution. You can chase your tail all day on this stuff and end up with a solution that makes one thing right at the expense of many others (ease of use, buggy, poor interface, etc.). And never mind that chroma resolution is rarely EVER a problem in real viewing content because for one, the chroma resolution of the content natively is so low to begin with and then you have to take into account that it drops more from motion resolution on top of that. I find chroma resolution to be a grail that some try to find with nyquist test patterns that have almost NOTHING to do with real world viewing in the slightest. You are FAR more likely to see other issues WAY before chroma resolution applies unless you're just looking at spreadsheets, static menus or something along those lines. One could argue that luma patterns are nearly the same as you approach nyquist because at the end of the day they only apply to static images and have NO bearing on moving images.

Ultimately you're just going to have to pick the player you can actually obtain that does a good job with video AND being usable as a player. Same with any streaming source. You're not going to find a perfect one for EITHER category. But that's okay, because there will never be perfect content to play on either anyways.
 

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plz tell me the HDMI spec didn't forget that BD and UHD have a different chroma subsample position and the spec can not signal which is used. meaning 4:2:0 is pretty useless from the start.
 

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So why does madshi even care about downconverting to 4:2:0 for Oppo players? Seems like a good approach. Should make Envy madVR algos shine.

edit: I'm sure madshi can tell the diff. between a BD and UHD video source for control of the chroma channel.
 

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Okay, now I have a series of rightful (mindful) questions. Envy is slated (mainly) for upper end PJ owners. I would include JVC NX series owners in that group. From my readings on the forum, NX owners are quite satisfied with JVC's Frame Adapt HDR settings on their PJ‘s. Has anyone thought of comparing this to Envy processing? It’s got to be hard to beat a free firmware upgrade against a multi-thousand dollar solution. Does Envy (or Lumagen) have a chance with these JVC owners? Are they even interested in external VP’s as a DTM solution? External should always be better, right?
 

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Okay, now I have a series of rightful (mindful) questions. Envy is slated (mainly) for upper end PJ owners. I would include JVC NX series owners in that group. From my readings on the forum, NX owners are quite satisfied with JVC's Frame Adapt HDR settings on their PJ‘s. Has anyone thought of comparing this to Envy processing? It’s got to be hard to beat a free firmware upgrade against a multi-thousand dollar solution. Does Envy (or Lumagen) have a chance with these JVC owners? Are they even interested in external VP’s as a DTM solution? External should always be better, right?
ENVY does a ton more than just DTM. If that's all you're looking for, you should move on.
 

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Are you saying JVC DTM is just as good as Envy's? And I should be good to go with JVC solution if that's all I care about? I realize Envy has a ton of other algos to offer, but I was just focusing on DTM as a starting point and understand JVC doesn't even compete in the other areas. Would like an indepth compare down the road on just DTM. The JVC owners seem to be pretty happy. If my playback is centered around 4K HDR (stream or UHD BD), JVC NX series would seem to be pretty good to go. Why would I *need* an Envy or Lumagen? Just asking.
 
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