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I think there is a Sony player with source direct as well.
Yes, the 1100ES (i have in my setup) can do it, and i believe the 800 as well.
Actually, the Sony players don´t seem to be overly popoular, but i really like them.
 

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Envy PRO
For 1080p SDR you have...
Since Blu-ray video quality vary A LOT from movie to movie, do you find yourself changing the settings based on how bad or good a movie looks? I'm wondering if some of the algos can "harm" a bad picture. Envy owners, any opinions on this?

I started watching Casino Royale from 1967 on BD, very very different quality compared to its 2006 cousin, and started wondering about this. There are so many amazing movies out there that will never get the level of restoration that Spartacus or Lawrence Of Arabia got for their 4k release.
(disgression: the Casino Royale (1967) BD prices are just silly on eBay, glad I got it when it came out, I never know when a title is going to end up cheap after a while, or if it's going to be rare and reach absurd prices)
 

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I have a NX9 and a Envy (Pro) , i also use a Paladin DCR lens and all i can say it is BRILJANT...
The result is stunning with an incredible depth in the picture, i've read many things about the Envy and Lumagen but i surtainly can't fault the Envy, it is superb and a impressive piece of kit for sure.
With the 3d lut calibration my installer did i've can tell it's the best picture i have ever seen and sometimes i feel myself as a kid in a candystore.
And it is still on beta firmware so in the future it must only be better and better although i don't think thats possible 😀
I don't know what they say about the Envy/NX9 in the HIFI forum that G-Rex is talking about but all i can tell you is that mine set is throwing an amazing picture.
Thank you for the detailed and useful response.

Anyone out there using the NX9 with the Envy but without an anamorphic lens?
 

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Since Blu-ray video quality vary A LOT from movie to movie, do you find yourself changing the settings based on how bad or good a movie looks? I'm wondering if some of the algos can "harm" a bad picture. Envy owners, any opinions on this?

I started watching Casino Royale from 1967 on BD, very very different quality compared to its 2006 cousin, and started wondering about this. There are so many amazing movies out there that will never get the level of restoration that Spartacus or Lawrence Of Arabia got for their 4k release.
(disgression: the Casino Royale (1967) BD prices are just silly on eBay, glad I got it when it came out, I never know when a title is going to end up cheap after a while, or if it's going to be rare and reach absurd prices)
My friend wants to watch Xanadu for her birthday, so i looked it up on eBay and someone wanted $159 for a blu-ray. I got it from our big chain record shop for $14.99.
 

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I am simply amazed at the continued shots this product is taking from the other VP crew. The only reason they got their perfectly/strategically timed FW update, was because of the release of the Envy. Tired of saying it, but competition is great for both products. No, this product is not in an infantile state, in fact far from it. The madVR software has been in development since (circa) 2009 and the following is huge on the PC forums, with over 3,000 pages of comments on one thread alone! (Doom9.org thread).

The closed operating system is certainly a welcomed addition and is arguably new, as well as some aspects of the hardware, but that doesn't make it infantile, nor is it remotely unstable. This being a significantly more modern platform, with skies the limit growth potential (software AND hardware), ease of setup, automation, and being very user approachable is no doubt getting under the skin of many, especially when there is no longer the necessity of having a calibrator/set up professional on-call (and no I’m not talking about 3d LUT calibrations... so refrain from the snide comments stating so).

The Europeans love the Envy, and it’s only here that it is being challenged at every turn. It’s being challenged so much so, and the overflowing giddy promotion of the other VP really is taking on a pitchman feel. All I have to say, is the AVS VP thread/post direction and environment is driving me away from what once was in the running for my VP selection. It seems that on AVS, if you don‘t buy a Trinnov, a JVC projector, a K-scape, and the dominant “accepted” VP... the outsider companies/products and its customers get chastised. There is more than enough customers for both companies to be successful, so these posters really need to chill out, enjoy their product, and not wish the demise of the other.
 

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I am simply amazed at the continued shots this product is taking from the other VP crew. The only reason they got their perfectly/strategically timed FW update, was because of the release of the Envy. Tired of saying it, but competition is great for both products. No, this product is not in an infantile state, in fact far from it. The madVR software has been in development since (circa) 2009 and the following is huge on the PC forums, with over 3000 pages of comments on one thread alone! (Doom9.org thread).

The closed operating system is certainly a welcomed addition and is arguably new, as well as some aspects of the hardware, but that doesn't make it infantile, nor is it remotely unstable. This being a significantly more modern platform, with skies the limit growth potential (software AND hardware), ease of setup, automation, and being very user approachable is no doubt getting under the skin of many, especially when there is no longer the necessity of having a calibrator/set up professional on-call (and no I’m not talking about 3d LUT calibrations... so refrain from the snide comments stating so).

The Europeans love the Envy, and it’s only here that it is being challenged at every turn. It’s being challenged so much so, and the overflowing giddy promotion of the other really is taking on a pitchman feel. All I have to say, is the AVS VP thread/post direction and environment is driving me away from what once was in the running for my VP selection. It seems that on AVS, if you don‘t buy a Trinnov, a JVC projector, a K-scape, and the dominant “accepted” VP... the outsider companies/products and its customers get chastised. There is more than enough customers for both companies to be successful, so these posters really need to chill out, enjoy their product, and not wish the demise of the other.
Maybe we are reading different threads, but I am not seeing a lot of pot shots at Envy on the Radiance thread. I see one post from someone, and I've seen plenty of the same shots taken over year over the last year (probably more misinformation here then there).

I don't agree that Envy is not in an "infant" state. It hasn't even been released officially after more than a year from its imminent arrival. So in terms of a hardware product, it is still in the womb for most intense purposes. And while I completely agree that MadVR software has been around for years now with fantastic results, MadVR is still cutting its teeth when it comes to hardware and hasn't shown anyone anything in terms of how they'll do in this space for support, stability and long term business. This isn't bashing the product, it is just the reality. Lumagen has proven their hardware chops and product support for nearly 20 years.

Also not sure what you mean by having a set up professional on call. Sure, you can get great results with a professional like myself from the Lumagen, but it isn't required. The Lumagen is really designed to be more of a CI product than a straight consumer product, but so are most products like this. The same could be said of a display (pro calibration will make most look better), an advanced audio processor (I just reviewed the Monoprice HTP-1 and you would DEFINITELY reap higher rewards with a pro that could take advantage of all the customization and fine tuning it offers, especially if they have good instrumentation). You can get a great picture out of the Lumagen with nearly zero effort and turning on some of the advanced features takes very little time or effort. But it is a dense product that offers A LOT of different options for setup and adjustability depending on what your video needs are. Some people would rather just pay someone to ensure they are reaping all those benefits without having to go in depth on how to use it, others love learning a product. I can say that about most advanced components in home theater, including Blu-ray players, audio receivers/processors or even something like MadVR (I've seen the endless amounts of fine tuning options in the software, FAR from just plug and play).

I haven't seen any posts on the Radiance thread that wish the demise of the Envy, but maybe I missed them. I don't see any posts on any of the forums for products you listed that wish the demise of the other. People get passionate about their toys, it has always been the way on these forums and unfortunately a lot of people take that as some binary comment that if one is good, the other must be crap. But I find that to be far from the truth. I love the performance of JVC projectors, but I just published a review of the Sony 915 that stated its excellent performance and even gave it a top pick. It is easily better than the majority of other home theater projectors on the market today. But I'd still use a JVC over it. That doesn't mean the 915 is a bad projector, only that I prefer the performance of the JVC over it for easily demonstrable reasons. Just because someone likes a Radiance more than an Envy or vice versa doesn't mean that the other doesn't perform well, it just means that some attribute of one product fit their needs better than the other. That could be some performance trait, or it could be as simple as economics. But it doesn't have to mean that because I picked A, B must be crap.
 

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Although i agree with all the other points in your post, i disagree with this one:

You can get a great picture out of the Lumagen with nearly zero effort and turning on some of the advanced features takes very little time or effort.
I had a Lumagen for testing the last couple of weeks, and configuration (not to mix up with "ease of use") is much more complicated compared to the Envy.
What i´ve done with my Envy is setup DTM, adjust screen format, anamorphic lens setting, black bar detection and 3D-lut calibration.
This is done with the Envy in ten minutes (this is effort, duration is a bit longer because of the calibration process) without having to look into any documentation.

With the Lumagen, i managed to setup DTM to a state that i get a very pleasing image.
But i gave up on the rest because i quickly found that it would take me hours or even days to work into that.
I´m sure i´ll give it another try when time allows, but not this year...

This is also no bashing, but just personal experience. As you stated in your post regarding the maturity state of the two products (which i totally agree with) - this is reality.
I totally appreciate that the Lumagen is a complex and very mighty tool that needs some time to get familiar with. And as an integrator, i could actually be happy about a product that´s complicated to setup.
But as a potential buyer, you need to take into account that the Lumagen will eiter consume a lot of your time to set it up right yourself or you would need to pay some extra money to let a professional do it (of couse if you don´t get it set up as a favour for friends).
 

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Oh, and BTW:
Congratulations to the madVR team for winning the 2020 CEDIA best new Hardware Products Award! 👏🥂
 

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I have now viewed two different Envy Extremes and I am still super impressed. It was plug and play there as well. The demonstration is very enlightening. If you check one out be prepared to make a purchase. And to think it hasn’t even begun to scratch the surface yet and it is this impressive!

And yes congrats to madVR on winning a much deserved award.
 

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I’ve been using Envy with my Sony laser VW760 for a few months now and it’s truly amazing. Coming from a Radiance Pro, the difference has been immediately evident to my eyes. The only complaint is about “contrast recovery“ set to “high“. It gives the image an incredible boost with 70% of the projected scenes and I’d love to use it permanently, it’s a real game changer. However the remainder 30% of the scenes are barely watchable, especially those with close-ups against bright backgrounds: the backgrounds flash and the magic vanishes. For context, I had never used contrast enhancer options before Envy, even Sony’s proprietary enhancer set to low is unacceptable imho.
Madshi, pls do whatever you can to improve this setting, it would make my life with this beautiful toy even happier!
 

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@WGenzo
Vincenzo ? :cool: I am also an VW760 owner and had at the time invested a lot of time into "contrast recovery" on a HTPC with madVRR installed. Then it was called HSTM. All you are reporting I can fully understand and is in line with observations of my own. I am also not a fan of the Sony CE. And I also saw that some of these contrast recovery options were too "aggressive" for my taste. Have you a big screen (and therefore are a bit on the low brightness side) ? I am asking because many people with low nit values seemed to prefer the more aggressive (stronger) contrast recovery settings. For me with quite a bright setup (150 nits) I did prefer the more conservative options. I am still using my HTPC and with one of these curves. I guess that is one of the advantages of the PC. But I have also invested a lot of time ... as an Envy owner I would certainly welcome to have plenty of options ... I guess that madshi did not want to offer too many options in order to make it not too complicate for the Envy users.
P.S. A friend of mine with an Envy has also about 150 nits with his VW870 and is perfectly happy with the default contrast recovery setting. Again: plenty of brightness so no need for an aggressive curve.
 

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@WGenzo
And I also saw that some of these contrast recovery options were too "aggressive" for my taste. Have you a big screen (and therefore are a bit on the low brightness side) ? I am asking because many people with low nit values seemed to prefer the more aggressive (stronger) contrast recovery settings. For me with quite a bright setup (150 nits) I did prefer the more conservative options.
Yes, on my Envy i have"Contrast recovery" turned "OFF" ...it looks far far more natural. :) The HIGH option on Envy is much to aggressive ...
 

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@Mori: Andrea :)
You’re totally right, I own a 140’’ dark star 9 screen and I’m around 40 nits, so far below your super bright setup. The “medium” setting is great and with no downsides, however when you try the “high” setting you can’t turn back, at least in a setup like mine. Unfortunately, all the movies I’ve watched show difficult scenes for my Envy/Sony digital chain :(
It seems you know well the Madvr platform: do you know what the “assume 4:2:0” setting in the chroma format under incoming video override does? I have a Panny UB9000 and struggling to find the best chroma option for both HD and UHD discs, you know the Panny doesn’t feature a source direct option and res+chroma must be setup manually...
 

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Yes, on my Envy i have"Contrast recovery" turned "OFF" ...it looks far far more natural. :) The HIGH option on Envy is much to aggressive ...
I’m very sensitive to the natural look of the projected image, that’s why I turned off all the Sony’s bells and whistles because they looked detrimental.
Probably, as Mori said, you have a fairly bright image?
 

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I’m very sensitive to the natural look of the projected image, that’s why I turned off all the Sony’s bells and whistles because they looked detrimental.
Probably, as Mori said, you have a fairly bright image?
143" Scope screen with my Z1/RS4500, MED Laser gives me 75 nits... Even at lower nit levels HIGH is far to aggressive and harsh/un-natural for my taste...
 

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143" Scope screen with my Z1/RS4500, MED Laser gives me 75 nits... Even at lower nit levels HIGH is far to aggressive and harsh/un-natural for my taste...
Heh, I find that the lower the nits setup, the worse the artifacts are. On my 75 nit projector screen I can use the lowest least aggressive settings for contrast recovery in madVR, but on my 200 nit PC monitor I can use the higher more aggressive settings just fine without seeing bad artifacts.

This is probably partly because contrast recovery is only active when the scene is above the display's peak nits level. But I think the algorithm also just works better when it has a larger native dynamic range to work with.
 

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Although i agree with all the other points in your post, i disagree with this one:



I had a Lumagen for testing the last couple of weeks, and configuration (not to mix up with "ease of use") is much more complicated compared to the Envy.
What i´ve done with my Envy is setup DTM, adjust screen format, anamorphic lens setting, black bar detection and 3D-lut calibration.
This is done with the Envy in ten minutes (this is effort, duration is a bit longer because of the calibration process) without having to look into any documentation.

With the Lumagen, i managed to setup DTM to a state that i get a very pleasing image.
But i gave up on the rest because i quickly found that it would take me hours or even days to work into that.
I´m sure i´ll give it another try when time allows, but not this year...

This is also no bashing, but just personal experience. As you stated in your post regarding the maturity state of the two products (which i totally agree with) - this is reality.
I totally appreciate that the Lumagen is a complex and very mighty tool that needs some time to get familiar with. And as an integrator, i could actually be happy about a product that´s complicated to setup.
But as a potential buyer, you need to take into account that the Lumagen will either consume a lot of your time to set it up right yourself or you would need to pay some extra money to let a professional do it (of couse if you don´t get it set up as a favour for friends).
This was my biggest issue with the Lumagen when I purchased initially, it was far from intuitive, to say the least, and the menus confusing. It certainly is not for the faint of heart, the average enthusiast is not going to breeze through any calibration. Now, when you do figure it out, it does provide a very accurate 3D lut. The calibration process was difficult enough that I nearly sold my Lumagen to be honest but in my situation, I had to tough it out as I did not have access to a calibrator. The Lumagen's key asset really was DTM, once this was added, it really nullified the negatives, made this product worth every penny. Now, this was the first DTM solution, this has been updated with a couple of new versions, unfortunately, my new theater is not ready so I haven't seen the results, as I have read, it's another level beyond what I have at present. DTM with the Lumagen was not overly difficult to set up, not quite plug and play, but also not too far off either.

It's very encouraging to know the Envy has a calibration process that is simple, that's exactly what the average enthusiast requires, it's the very reason I avoided MAD/VR with HTPC in the first place, so that's music to my ears. I paid more money to have the convenience of calibration without the complexity, the Envy appears to have made this even more so. From the Envy owner posts I have read, DTM is simply amazing, being essentially plug and play is a statement I've been hearing often, and that's the most exciting feature that will appeal to enthusiasts strongly. When I purchase an expensive piece of equipment, I expect ease of use and plug and play to rank very high on the list, obviously, it would have to perform as well as others, this is already established from the various reports as a new upstart, and that's impressive.

Anyone condemning this product is unstable because the hardware architecture is all-new, is totally backward thinking. Should they use old hardware, or do as every other forward-thinking company and use the most advance components possible? Consider any new AV product introduced, in particular over the last year. I've seen some major AV players stumble quite hard for nearly half a year, and with multiple products, all with a completely new design, so pointing the finger at Envy as being different is certainly uncalled for. Of course, those marketing these products will defend theirs and point fingers at the competition, they are as always, quite obvious. As a consumer, I'm just happy to have the choice, and I see the healthy competition will just stimulate more improvements in features, components, and pricing, that will benefit all. Here's to seeing both companies offer competitive products, and both having financial success. What we don't want is a monopoly, healthy competition is exactly the stimulation needed, and healthy companies are beneficial to the consumer.

I was going to stay the course with my Lumagen 4440 for the near future, and may very well do so. But, considering the recent posts from Envy owners, knowing the advanced modular components being used, I'm going to definitely give this strong consideration. Lumagen is still sitting on older hardware, although it does the job very well, presently, future needs are going to be a challenge, that's why I've decided to consider the Envy for my new theater this fall. I cannot fault the Lumagen as it's been solid for four years, and still does a great job at present, but looking into the long term and with no confirmed Lumagen models on the horizon, I'm looking at what's available now. So from my perspective, I'm happy there is a healthy competitor with a solid background, and what appears to be a professional consortium funding the company, all the markings of a long term player .
 
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