AVS Forum banner

3961 - 3980 of 4027 Posts

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Hey guys,

I just realized that I may have set up my video settings wrong all along.

In my Nvidia settings, I set up the output dynamic range to full (0-255). When playing a 4k HDR movie via my HTPC using MCP-HC + MadVR and always had the impression that the image was too dark. I played around with my LG C9 settings, managed to get the image a bit brighter and thought it would be good enough.

Today I played the same movie on Disney+ with Dolby Vision and on my HTPC and I could tell the image my PC output was too dark. So on my TV HTPC source I switched the black level to high and miracle I got the exact same image as with Dolby Vision (I consider the dolby vision image reference since all the settings are preset to be the most accurate by cinema standards)

I remember reading somewhere that LG low and high black level settings were in reality the equivalent of 0-255 and 16-235 dynamic range. Which leads me to wonder whether Blu Ray movies are meant to be played using the full or limited dynamic range?

Maybe I got it wrong all along setting up my HTPC to output full dynamic range and that the right setting for HTPC is to use 16-235 range?
Video is pretty much all 16-235, but 0-255 is the ideal HTPC output mode since PCs operate in RGB color space which is alawys full range.

If you tell the PC to output Limited range it will always be doing a conversion which is not the best quality.

You just need to set your display settings to properly show the full range output from your PC. You may also need to adjust your media player settings to the proper levels.

The most "ideal" settings for an untouched video output would be Limited - Full - Limited. Where the first Limited is your media player (set madVR to Limited), the Full is your GPU output, and the second Limited is your display's range setting.

The downside to this is everything that's not from a media player (like your desktop, web browser, video games, etc) will now appear washed out. So if this is important, the other setting that lot of people use which will prodice the correct levels for everything is Full - Full - Full. And there is only 1 conversion in there applied to video to convert it from Limited to Full and that happens in madVR which does it it in very high quality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Good to meet you all here. I was hoping to get advised on the following. We have a MSI gaming laptop with GTX 1050 GPU using VLC player and a BenQ ht2050a 1080p projector. I've started to set up MadVr on the laptop but am wondering if it's worth it if the goals are; (1) to have better 1080p quality over VLC but we are actually really amazed with what is being produced so not a big priority and (2) and most importantly to play 4K HDR material converted and tone mapped to SDR 1080p to get more dynamic range, sharpness and pop over 1080p.

Any thoughts? Would we see an actual difference in the 4K HDR to SDR 2K situation? Is the GTX 1050 able to handle this?

Many thanks, EE
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
Not sure on LightSpace, but DisplayCAL is free and can generate a 3DLUT for madVR.

And yes your assumption is correct that it will process all video and calibrate everything including white balance (color temp), gamma, and color gamut.

You should still set the brightness and contrast values on your display manually via clipping test patterns though.
Oh, thanks for the great recommendation I was not aware of this free tool and it supports Mac OSX natively ! Great, hopefully it is „Intuitive“ and not to complex
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Oh, thanks for the great recommendation I was not aware of this free tool and it supports Mac OSX natively ! Great, hopefully it is „Intuitive“ and not to complex
I made some screenshots of the setup for making a madVR 3DLUT some time back. They should help you get started at least.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
why did you select 16-235 WTW instead of just 16-235 in your 3DLut options ? Does that indicate really 0-255

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
why did you select 16-235 WTW instead of just 16-235 in your 3DLut options ? Does that indicate really 0-255

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
Since my HTPC is setup Full - Full - Full, if I don't clip WTW, I see all white above 235 in white clipping test pattern. If I use clip WTW then I see only up to bar 235 as I should.

When you measure for a 3DLUT, DisplayCAL will save the profile, so you can simply select that existing profile and re-generate a new 3DLUT with different settings in just a couple minutes without re-measuring, so you could try both for your setup if you are wondering.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Video is pretty much all 16-235, but 0-255 is the ideal HTPC output mode since PCs operate in RGB color space which is alawys full range.

If you tell the PC to output Limited range it will always be doing a conversion which is not the best quality.

You just need to set your display settings to properly show the full range output from your PC. You may also need to adjust your media player settings to the proper levels.

The most "ideal" settings for an untouched video output would be Limited - Full - Limited. Where the first Limited is your media player (set madVR to Limited), the Full is your GPU output, and the second Limited is your display's range setting.

The downside to this is everything that's not from a media player (like your desktop, web browser, video games, etc) will now appear washed out. So if this is important, the other setting that lot of people use which will prodice the correct levels for everything is Full - Full - Full. And there is only 1 conversion in there applied to video to convert it from Limited to Full and that happens in madVR which does it it in very high quality.
Thank you very much for the super detailed and insightful answer, really appreciate it.

Is it incredibly complex, the more I learn about this topic the more I'm amazed.

I'm going to try your first option for an untouched video output since I only use my HTPC for watching movies.

I just had one question though regarding this

- Media Player: I just set MadVR to Limited

- GPU output: You said GPU should be set to full. Just to confirm, I set this up in my Nvidia settings, right?
(also in Nvidia settings you can choose between "use default color settings" or Use NVIDIA color settings" which then allow you to select full or limited dynamic range. Going with "Use NVIDIA color settings" is the best choice?

- Display Range settings: On my LG C9 I believe limited is the low black level option

Last thing, regarding the Limited - Full - Limited configuration.
What about the decoder? MadVR is a renderer, what should we set the decoder to?
When I go to MPC HC settings > Internal Filters> Internal LAV filters - Video decoder under RGB output level there is 3 options:
  • TV (16-235
  • PC (0-255)
  • Untouched (as input)

What should I set it to? For now it's set to TV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Since my HTPC is setup Full - Full - Full, if I don't clip WTW, I see all white above 235 in white clipping test pattern. If I use clip WTW then I see only up to bar 235 as I should.

When you measure for a 3DLUT, DisplayCAL will save the profile, so you can simply select that existing profile and re-generate a new 3DLUT with different settings in just a couple minutes without re-measuring, so you could try both for your setup if you are wondering.
Thanks and makes sense. I am also full - full - full so will try this.

To confirm testing. Once the 3DLut is loaded in MadVR just play the typical black/white clipping patterns correct?

It's interesting because I was at limited - full - limited and Displaycal threw a warning up during calibration that I was clipping. so I switched to full - full - full and it went away.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Thank you very much for the super detailed and insightful answer, really appreciate it.

Is it incredibly complex, the more I learn about this topic the more I'm amazed.

I'm going to try your first option for an untouched video output since I only use my HTPC for watching movies.

I just had one question though regarding this

- Media Player: I just set MadVR to Limited

- GPU output: You said GPU should be set to full. Just to confirm, I set this up in my Nvidia settings, right?
(also in Nvidia settings you can choose between "use default color settings" or Use NVIDIA color settings" which then allow you to select full or limited dynamic range. Going with "Use NVIDIA color settings" is the best choice?

- Display Range settings: On my LG C9 I believe limited is the low black level option

Last thing, regarding the Limited - Full - Limited configuration.
What about the decoder? MadVR is a renderer, what should we set the decoder to?
When I go to MPC HC settings > Internal Filters> Internal LAV filters - Video decoder under RGB output level there is 3 options:
  • TV (16-235
  • PC (0-255)
  • Untouched (as input)

What should I set it to? For now it's set to TV
GPU output setting is done on the Resolution screen as seen here, at the bottom:

Output format: RGB, Output Dynamic Range: Full

This should always be set to RGB, Full for all setups, because if it's set to Limited, then the GPU always does a relatively "poor" quality conversion.


And on your TV set HDMI black level out Low.

You can set your LAV filters to Untouched (as input).
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Thanks and makes sense. I am also full - full - full so will try this.

To confirm testing. Once the 3DLut is loaded in MadVR just play the typical black/white clipping patterns correct?

It's interesting because I was at limited - full - limited and Displaycal threw a warning up during calibration that I was clipping. so I switched to full - full - full and it went away.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
Yeah, use typical patterns.

I would set up 2 calibration profiles in madVR with hotkeys so you can switch your 3DLUT on and off with a hotkey to compare before/after.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
If you are using the 3D LUT, do you still benefit form dynamic HDR or will the settings will be bypassed if you choose to use 3D LUT?
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
If you are using the 3D LUT, do you still benefit form dynamic HDR or will the settings will be bypassed if you choose to use 3D LUT?
3DLUT has nothing to do with HDR tone-mapping. It's applied/processed separately.
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Thanks for the screenshot, that really helped! I have a Sony VW790 and I have BT2020 set as color space and gamma 2.2.

I wonder if I should have better set Custom as the color space because it may be larger?
You would probably be best off setting your Sony for its widest native color space, and generating a DCI-P3 3DLUT actually.

Generating a 3DLUT for color gamut that is substantially wider than your projector can actually display often leads to strange and poor results. Even DCI-P3 target is a little wider than your Sony can display, so you won't be wasting or throwing any color gamut away.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
You would probably be best off setting your Sony for its widest native color space, and generating a DCI-P3 3DLUT actually.

Generating a 3DLUT for color gamut that is substantially wider than your projector can actually display often leads to strange and poor results. Even DCI-P3 target is a little wider than your Sony can display, so you won't be wasting or throwing any color gamut away.
My result was 95% of DCI-P3, which also seems very high when I set the Sony to BT2020. So I need to do the same thing again, with "Custom" to see if that changes anything.

If I understand it correctly, 3D LUT has not only color information but also the gamma information. You have set 2.2 in your setting, does that mean that this value will not be re-measured, or is that the target gamma?

I was under the assumption that a 3D LUT takes the maximum possible from the display and then MadVR can make the best of it, because he knows all the values of the colors and grayscale, or do I have a wrong assumption here?
 

·
Registered
JVC NX5 at 140", Denon X4200W (5.1.2) with Axiom Audio speakers + Bass Shakers
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
My result was 95% of DCI-P3, which also seems very high when I set the Sony to BT2020. So I need to do the same thing again, with "Custom" to see if that changes anything.

If I understand it correctly, 3D LUT has not only color information but also the gamma information. You have set 2.2 in your setting, does that mean that this value will not be re-measured, or is that the target gamma?

I was under the assumption that a 3D LUT takes the maximum possible from the display and then MadVR can make the best of it, because he knows all the values of the colors and grayscale, or do I have a wrong assumption here?
madVR HDR tone-mapping expects a 3DLUT with 2.2 gamma.

You can select a different gamma in madVR gamma control if you want to view a different gamma, but the 3DLUT and display should be 2.2 gamma when using madVR HDR tone-mapping.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
gamma can be a personal preference. It also can very depending on movie title. Use 2.2 as the default and setup a remote/keyboard shortcut to raise and lower it as you prefer.

2.2 works for me on most everything but titles like mandalorian or John wick as an example. Those are to dark and I like to kick gamma down a couple to brighten the image a bit.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
Then the conclusion is the if you set the gamma to 2.4 it will not „correct“ it to 2.2.

So you need to do a gamma calibration before you create a 3D LUT? I thought it will be done with the 3D LUT.

Lets assume you gamma will drift and you create a new 3D LUT, it will not fix the drift or did I misunderstood it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
Question about colorspace. When outputting RGB my projector (JVC NX7) doesn't seem to recognize automatically if it is 709 or 2020. I see there is a MadVR option to add a 2020 flag which would trigger the JVC but then isn't standard 709 Blu Ray now being sent as 2020? How do you handle this?
 
3961 - 3980 of 4027 Posts
Top