[gastrof]

This Maggie unit is once again available at Wal-Mart's website.

 

[fallingwater]

Thanks!

 

[rennert]

Can I piggyback on terri13th's question and ask what's probably a stupid question?


Here's the situation: I have a Pioneer 640-h that I've been using for about 2 years. I have cable but no set-top boxes (just coaxial directly into TVs, DVR). My cable company is now taking lots of channels off analog and onto digital which requires a box. So I'm biting the bullet and upgrading to digital service with a required set-top box.


Would there be any advantage at all for someone like me in getting a digital-tuner DVD recorder like the Magnavox or Philips? I'm thinking the answer's no, since my cable co. has very few channels available on QAM (just a few basic local channels). Correct me if I'm wrong, but for other channels (non-Qam) would the situation be exactly the same whether I have the Pioneer 640-h with analog tuner or Philips with digital tuner? I would just hook both up through line-out/line-in, meaning I have to use the cable box to tune the channel, right? Passing through the cable box with coaxial to the digital-tuner recorder doesn't mean I can tune digital channels thru the recorder, right?


I'm just trying to figure out what the advantage of the new digital-tuner recorders are. Is it only if you're getting your signal OTA and not through cable?


Like I said, I'm sure a stupid question but I've been going back and forth for months on "should I ditch the 640 and get a digital tuner recorder?", and then they were unavailable and I felt I'd missed the boat... and now I wonder if I even need the boat?


Help?

 

[Tulpa]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rennert /forum/post/16295957


I'm just trying to figure out what the advantage of the new digital-tuner recorders are. Is it only if you're getting your signal OTA and not through cable?

For the most part, yes, the OTA ATSC tuner is the big attraction. The Philips/Maggy can act as a HDD DVR (although only in standard def) for people that use OTA. If you have cable and the majority of channels are encrypted, the Philips QAM tuner won't pick up much more than your Pioneer will, although it should get the digital locals which are generally passed in the clear. If the channels you want require a cable box, the QAM tuner is a bit superfluous.


Although some people do get a decent set of clear QAM channels that the tuner can pick up. It all depends on how generous your cableco is.


In your situation, if you use a cable box, the digital tuners in the Philips probably won't see any use.

 

[rennert]

Thanks very much for the quick reply, Tulpa.


I just really felt like I was missing something and wanted to make sure I wasn't being dense.


So I guess I'll stick with my Pioneer and just use it to record through the cable box. (Actually, I'll probably get the cable DVR box and use the Pioneer to offload/edit stuff I want to save on DVD)


Thanks again for clarifying it for me.

 

[7558037]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rennert /forum/post/16296073


Thanks very much for the quick reply, Tulpa.


I just really felt like I was missing something and wanted to make sure I wasn't being dense.


So I guess I'll stick with my Pioneer and just use it to record through the cable box. (Actually, I'll probably get the cable DVR box and use the Pioneer to offload/edit stuff I want to save on DVD)


Thanks again for clarifying it for me.

I think you might be missing a boat here. I have the Philips 3575's and Mag 2160 and sub. to basic analog cable. The cableco has to send all the channels in the clear that you could receive if you had an antenna. For everyone with a cableco that doesn't flaunt the FCC rule, that means 90-95% or more of their most-watched digital programs will prob. be on ABC-HD, NBC-HD, CBS-HD and FOX-HD. Some info on this is here.


My cableco, in a medium to small market, also sends, in the clear, ESPN-HD, ESPN2-HD, TNT-HD, TBS-HD, DISC-HD... all 16:9 widescreen digital channels with programs produced in and for HD (also the CW network).


With my PhilMag units 1st on the coax, I can directly record those channels, plus my 47 analogs that I pay for, without setting two timers (one in the box and one in the rec.). I used to record all my pro sports off ESPN-HD but now have NBC-HD also, which has started to rival ESPN for quality of equipment and broadcast of HD sports.


I do 90-95% of my timeshifting now with no box and with direct timer rec programs, and pay only for analog basic cable (lowest tier available).


One thing to note, even tho you might sub. to a "digital tier" for extra cost, there's no guarantee that you'll actually receive true digital signals, as described in this interesting article.


If you, or a neighbor, have a HDTV with digital tuner and no box, you should know exactly what channels you'll receive in the clear cuz the PhilMg will be able to tune the exact same channels w/o a box.


Much more info if you click #1 in my signature.

 

[radiorick]

Thanks gastrof!...So how many are you in for? Debating whether to order one more in the case that they disappear indefinitely. If it hadn't been for the one I had acquired, I might have resorted to bring out my EH85 that I have in storage.

 

[CitiBear]

rennert, you may want to consider getting a Magnavox H2160 anyway as a backup to your Pioneer 640, if nothing else. Like all other HDD-equipped recorders, the Phillips/Mags are on the way out, in fact its a shock to find them back in stock at Wal*Mart - better act now before that "surprise bonus" stash disappears. As wajo noted, the advantage of the built-in digital tuners is full 16:9 recording ability, depending on the channel and how your cable company transmits it over the coax. The disadvantage of the digital tuners is they are way more dependable for off-air than cable: wajo and some others are very lucky, their cable companies are "cooperative" with QAM, but a significant number thumb their nose at the FCC and provide squat over coax without the decoder (sounds like your service is heading that way).


The Pioneer 640 is a great unit, I love my Pios, and even wajo owns a 640. But as they approach their third birthdays, reports indicate the 640s are beginning to show burner wear (randomly rejecting media, bad burns, etc.) Its a slow process, and if you switch completely to TY 8x DVD-R media the minute your 640 shows signs of burner wear, you can prolong its useful life by another year. When it does finally become unusable, replacement burners for the 640 cost more than an entire new Phillips/Magnavox recorder: when that day comes, you'll be happy you bought a backup recorder while they were still available. If you can afford it, do it.

 

[videobruce]

A 2160 just sold for around $300 on e-bay and another one is lsited.


Regarding the RF pass through and eariler comments on amplification of the output. Attached are screen shots of the recorders 'RF path' using a Spectrum Analyzer.

Note;

Each division is 2db, not the customary 10db,

Bandpass is from 20 MHz to 900 Mhz,

Markets were placed at the lowest points,

The 'ripple' seems to be common. I have seen it with most active and passive devices (amps, splitters etc.),

Lastly, if you cycle through these screen shots, you will notice a fluctuation in the trace. I have no idsea what is causing this since I have never seen this behavior before with any device I tested. It's not the scope either,

There is a sharp cutoff at or just below channel 2.


Overall, there is increasing gain on higher frequencies.

 

[tmwalsh0]

Trees, digital tuner crosstalk, delta T, delta V, static electricity, the cat, squirrels chewing on the RG6, A/C ripple, kid down the street with the VanDeGraaf in the basement, CB radios, the band in the garage next door, and low batteries.

Now, what does it mean? That the signal coming in is not evenly passed through, depending on frequency. Well, that is subject to capacitance, no? So, you end up with some sort of mesh of caps that each attenuate a lot and pass through a specific band of frequencies better. So, the combination of them as you step through the frequency varies the passthrough effect, right? That explains the curve, but not the curve doing the Loch Ness Monster Mash... yes? Is that what you are saying?

Kinda neat to see this kind of stuff. Just got a 'real' scope that can see video/chroma signals in my broken TV, now just have to trace to see where it goes away...

tom

 

[olyteddy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by tmwalsh0 /forum/post/16299646


Trees, digital tuner crosstalk, delta T, delta V, static electricity, the cat, squirrels chewing on the RG6, A/C ripple, kid down the street with the VanDeGraaf in the basement, CB radios, the band in the garage next door, and low batteries.

Now, what does it mean? That the signal coming in is not evenly passed through, depending on frequency. Well, that is subject to capacitance, no? So, you end up with some sort of mesh of caps that each attenuate a lot and pass through a specific band of frequencies better. So, the combination of them as you step through the frequency varies the passthrough effect, right? That explains the curve, but not the curve doing the Loch Ness Monster Mash... yes? Is that what you are saying?

Kinda neat to see this kind of stuff. Just got a 'real' scope that can see video/chroma signals in my broken TV, now just have to trace to see where it goes away...

tom

Actually the traces are pretty clean. The 2 or 3 dB tilt will help overcome the tilt of any cable attached. I've been a 'Sweep Tech' for years and wish all my traces were thatflat.

 

[rennert]



Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/16296336


But as they approach their third birthdays, reports indicate the 640s are beginning to show burner wear (randomly rejecting media, bad burns, etc.)

Is the burner wear issue just related to use (I assume) and not age? I'm asking because, though I've had the 640 for a couple of years, I've probably only burnt about 10-15 DVDs. I got my parents a 640 also which they've used just for timeshifting and watching DVDs, not burning. They're getting a digital cable DVR (since all they do is timeshift) so even if something happens to my 640, I'll keep theirs as a backup. I assume there shouldn't be any burner wear issues for a long while since the burner on mine has hardly been used and theirs not at all.


I'd just hate to throw money away on a new one I don't really need (though the other side of me, knowing they're going the way of the dodo, hates the idea of missing the boat)

 

[CitiBear]

Rennert, burner wear causes vary by brand and model. Some wear out just sitting unused, others wear out more evenly with actual use. Taking the Pioneers as an example, pre-640 models wear out from age even if sitting unused in a sealed box. 640 and later models use a completely different type of burner which is very rugged and only wears out from use. But note, "use" includes playback, so in your case your parents' 640 is likely to be more worn than yours (avoid using recorders as DVD players, buy a good affordable player instead). Since you already own two 640s, and don't feel you'd benefit from the ATSC tuners in the Phillips/Magnavox, you should be OK for a few years with what you have. But do start making a habit of buying 8x-speed DVD-R from online suppliers: the 8x is so much easier on recorder burners than 16x it isn't funny.


Since this is a Phillips/Maggie thread, let me just add the burners in these have so far proven equally durable to those in the Pioneer 640: a commendable performance compared to average

. The Phillips/Magnavox burners look superficially flimsier because they use a skeletal chassis instead of being fully enclosed, but this is the result of being designed specifically as recorder burners instead of re-purposed PC burners. The open design provides the extra ventilation crucial to durability.

 

[rennert]



Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/16301056


But do start making a habit of buying 8x-speed DVD-R from online suppliers: the 8x is so much easier on recorder burners than 16x it isn't funny.

Will do, CitiBear. Thanks for the advice.

 

[auskck]

FYIossible dvd burner replacement for Mag/Philips
http://www.jr.com/philips/pe/PHI_DVDR3505_hy_RB/

 

[videobruce]



Quote:
Trees, digital tuner crosstalk, delta T, delta V, static electricity, the cat, squirrels chewing on the RG6, A/C ripple, kid down the street with the VanDeGraaf in the basement, CB radios, the band in the garage next door, and low batteries.

Now, what does it mean?

To answer the question, nothing. This is a closed circuit that is measuring the response of a active circuit. All of that is of no bearing what so ever.

Quote:
So, the combination of them as you step through the frequency varies the passthrough effect, right? That explains the curve, but not the curve doing the Loch Ness Monster Mash... yes?

Yes to both. If it was stationary, it would be one thing, but to have it 'pulsate' is another. That is where I'm at a loss.

 

[videobruce]

Separate question regarding aspect choices:


I have found 1080p and enhanced contrast gives me the best image (especially chroma response). Problem is, the lack of choices I have in the TV when viewing a 4x3 recording. There is no 'Narrow' mode available except when outputing at 480p. There is no way I can watch the proper 4x3 ratio unless I revert back to 480p out of the recorder. Watching a regular 16x9 DVD is no problem since it is at the proper aspect ratio in the first place.


Is there any work around for this?

 

[7558037]



Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce /forum/post/16302983


To answer the question, nothing. This is a closed circuit that is measuring the response of a active circuit. All of that is of no bearing what so ever.Yes to both. If it was stationary, it would be one thing, but to have it 'pulsate' is another. That is where I'm at a loss.

In post #809 above , Olyteddy says this about your RF traces:


"Actually the traces are pretty clean. The 2 or 3 dB tilt will help overcome the tilt of any cable attached. I've been a 'Sweep Tech' for years and wish all my traces were that flat."

 

[auskck]



Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce /forum/post/16303059


Separate question regarding aspect choices:


I have found 1080p and enhanced contrast gives me the best image (especially chroma response). Problem is, the lack of choices I have in the TV when viewing a 4x3 recording. There is no 'Narrow' mode available except when outputing at 480p. There is no way I can watch the proper 4x3 ratio unless I revert back to 480p out of the recorder. Watching a regular 16x9 DVD is no problem since it is at the proper aspect ratio in the first place.


Is there any work around for this?

A major factor is your TV, what options you have. I use a projector which has many options for display.

 

[auskck]



Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce /forum/post/16303059


Separate question regarding aspect choices:


I have found 1080p and enhanced contrast gives me the best image (especially chroma response). Problem is, the lack of choices I have in the TV when viewing a 4x3 recording. There is no 'Narrow' mode available except when outputing at 480p. There is no way I can watch the proper 4x3 ratio unless I revert back to 480p out of the recorder. Watching a regular 16x9 DVD is no problem since it is at the proper aspect ratio in the first place.


Is there any work around for this?

What happens when you go into the menu Video > TV Aspect then change it to 4:3?