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Discussion Starter #41
Following this.. I own 10 drivers, 4 ea in LR towers snd 2 in CTR Channel. Tuned to 42Hz. 2 per cavity Im limited at 500W per driver by excursion if I recall. A 60Hz tune should yield very strong MB content.


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I agree they can get loud. I've been chasing the Paradigm Seismic 110 dragon and these are my first DIY's. I figure at least I should try and fix this tune first and see if it improves. Otherwise, I'm going to give new drivers and boxes a try.

Specifically these: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3056664-small-box-driver-recommendations.html
 

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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
How far away from the walls is the enclosure, and how close are you to the cabinet? For midbass output those other models you mentioned probably aren't going to do what you're hoping.
Rear wall is close to the sub but behind it. One sub is corner loaded about 2" off a side wall and rear wall. I'm about 7' back from the cabinet.
 

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Discussion Starter #45

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You're likely getting some cancellation issues. After you tune the MBM lower you should turn off both Rythmik subs and put the MBM in the same place as one of them and feed it some power.

FOHTech, any idea how one of the MBM's should compare to two of those LVX 12" subwoofers for midbass?
 

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You're likely getting some cancellation issues. After you tune the MBM lower you should turn off both Rythmik subs and put the MBM in the same place as one of them and feed it some power.



FOHTech, any idea how one of the MBM's should compare to two of those LVX 12" subwoofers for midbass?


So the 12” sub you have hasnt been tested by Ricci, however he has done an FV15HP. It seems this model has more output and a larger cone so I woukd say maybe take 3db or more off of these numbers. Both ports open, the FV15 does 119.5 at 50, so I would say youre 12 may Max Burst 116 or so both ports open. The Mag will do better. If youre tuned for 60Hz, then if I recall when I designed mine, your 60-70 levels should be higher than 121. The FV15 is 120 at 70, so the Mag MBM should outperform the FV15 and definately your 12. I would focus your time on doing the below test Erich and I recommend, however you will need to set up some HP filtering on the Rhythmic or use an REW system.

Mixing an MBM and a sub that has low extension and conpletely different tune is not going to work. You have two options, first run the MBM crossed at 40s and above and the LVX12 below that and work out the integration at the crossover point, or... purchase a MiniDSP device, and read about the ways of integrating subwoofers of different tune and output in a space. Its time consuming. I’m sure youre getting cancellation and nulls Erich had a great simple test. run just the Mag12 in the Rhythmic spot and aee what you get. Also, ears can lie, If you dont have any REW type equipment, then use your iphone or android device and just compare results using a SPL meter app, just for comparison. Keep everything the same.

These drivers are truly a great design. I’m going to be upgrading my amps to them, as my amp is running out of steam before these drivers are. A true higher voltage 1000-1200watts per pair at 4ohms will do the trick. Electrically they will handle 1000w, and with a steep HP at 30Hz and a tune at 42, Im getting great use of Xmax. Granted my house curve peaks are eating up alot of headroom in the amp and excursion, buuuuuuuut man, does it sound GOOD! I’m going to be purchasing more. Very soon. Another 6db.... YES Please!! Lol. If you don’t like yours let me know!! I need the Over 50 Content needs to keep up with my sub 50 content going to my sealed HS24s. Saving all that excusrion and energy usage above 40 from my HS24s for more VLF content. The drivers are both operating efficiently in their wheelhouse.


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These drivers are truly a great design. I’m going to be upgrading my amps to them, as my amp is running out of steam before these drivers are. A true higher voltage 1000-1200watts per pair at 4ohms will do the trick. Electrically they will handle 1000w, and with a steep HP at 30Hz and a tune at 42, Im getting great use of Xmax. Granted my house curve peaks are eating up alot of headroom in the amp and excursion, buuuuuuuut man, does it sound GOOD! I’m going to be purchasing more. Very soon. Another 6db.... YES Please!! Lol. If you don’t like yours let me know!! I need the Over 50 Content needs to keep up with my sub 50 content going to my sealed HS24s. Saving all that excusrion and energy usage above 40 from my HS24s for more VLF content. The drivers are both operating efficiently in their wheelhouse.
My box's ended up being a 42hz tune as well, but I was using a 38hz hpf to cross over to a sealed UM18. I effectively want to do what you just said, minus the HS24 :D. Before I was powering them with an iNuke3000DSP and while it still sounded good and my peaks were off the charts I needed a lot more power than what that tiny amp could give. Hopefully Eric will still have more of these in stock in the future when I return to the states!
 

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Discussion Starter #49
You're likely getting some cancellation issues. After you tune the MBM lower you should turn off both Rythmik subs and put the MBM in the same place as one of them and feed it some power.

FOHTech, any idea how one of the MBM's should compare to two of those LVX 12" subwoofers for midbass?

I can say after reducing the tune they sound better. I haven't been able to EQ them with my miniDSP and haven't gotten to test anything other than sound effects from last nights UFC event. But I could already tell it was different. I'll see how they sound crossed-over when I get more time. I smell some new boxes in the future...
 

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Discussion Starter #50
So the 12” sub you have hasnt been tested by Ricci, however he has done an FV15HP. It seems this model has more output and a larger cone so I woukd say maybe take 3db or more off of these numbers. Both ports open, the FV15 does 119.5 at 50, so I would say youre 12 may Max Burst 116 or so both ports open. The Mag will do better. If youre tuned for 60Hz, then if I recall when I designed mine, your 60-70 levels should be higher than 121. The FV15 is 120 at 70, so the Mag MBM should outperform the FV15 and definately your 12. I would focus your time on doing the below test Erich and I recommend, however you will need to set up some HP filtering on the Rhythmic or use an REW system.

Mixing an MBM and a sub that has low extension and conpletely different tune is not going to work. You have two options, first run the MBM crossed at 40s and above and the LVX12 below that and work out the integration at the crossover point, or... purchase a MiniDSP device, and read about the ways of integrating subwoofers of different tune and output in a space. Its time consuming. I’m sure youre getting cancellation and nulls Erich had a great simple test. run just the Mag12 in the Rhythmic spot and aee what you get. Also, ears
can lie, If you dont have any REW type equipment, then use your iphone or android device and just compare results using a SPL meter app, just for comparison. Keep everything the same.
I'm not seeing a specific tune on the Rythmik: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LVX12_specs.html

I have a miniDSP and measurement mic. I'll try and cross them over at tune with the new tune and see what works. I'll check for nulls but if I recall I didn't have anything dramatic but I'll definitely test again.

I've been manic about the forum for a while and this is the first I've seen about mixing tunes.

Would is your position about mixing sealed and ported? Is that an even bigger mess?

These drivers are truly a great design. I’m going to be upgrading my amps to them, as my amp is running out of steam before these drivers are. A true higher voltage 1000-1200watts per pair at 4ohms will do the trick. Electrically they will handle 1000w, and with a steep HP at 30Hz and a tune at 42, Im getting great use of Xmax. Granted my house curve peaks are eating up alot of headroom in the amp and excursion, buuuuuuuut man, does it sound GOOD! I’m going to be purchasing more. Very soon. Another 6db.... YES Please!! Lol. If you don’t like yours let me know!! I need the Over 50 Content needs to keep up with my sub 50 content going to my sealed HS24s. Saving all that excusrion and energy usage above 40 from my HS24s for more VLF content. The drivers are both operating efficiently in their wheelhouse.
I'll keep you posted if I decide not to go with them. I may still try the Dayton Reference HO in a vented config with a matched tune to the Rythmiks. If I'm building new boxes anyways... I may make them downfiring as well.

I spent a lot on tools and despite my troubles at every turn (outlined in my build thread) it was a really rewarding experience. If I can't add more speakers (per my wife and space) at least I can optimize the boxes and keep building.
So in short: Any ideas on what the tune of the Rythmiks are? Would mixing sealed and vented be a bad idea? See any issues with downfiring these Mag's tuned at 40 and LPF at 100Hz with my mains?
 

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I'm not seeing a specific tune on the Rythmik: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LVX12_specs.html

I have a miniDSP and measurement mic. I'll try and cross them over at tune with the new tune and see what works. I'll check for nulls but if I recall I didn't have anything dramatic but I'll definitely test again.

I've been manic about the forum for a while and this is the first I've seen about mixing tunes.

Would is your position about mixing sealed and ported? Is that an even bigger mess?


I'll keep you posted if I decide not to go with them. I may still try the Dayton Reference HO in a vented config with a matched tune to the Rythmiks. If I'm building new boxes anyways... I may make them downfiring as well.

I spent a lot on tools and despite my troubles at every turn (outlined in my build thread) it was a really rewarding experience. If I can't add more speakers (per my wife and space) at least I can optimize the boxes and keep building.
So in short: Any ideas on what the tune of the Rythmiks are? Would mixing sealed and vented be a bad idea? See any issues with downfiring these Mag's tuned at 40 and LPF at 100Hz with my mains?


So for your Rhythmic Sub, I read on line that the tune depends on if you plug a port and throw an associated switch. Like 18Hz or something nice like that.

So for mixing subs, sealed and sealed is best. Next best is sealed and Ported and least is ported and ported. Read up on the threads on MSO - Multi Sub Optimizer and some of the oages on MiniDSP. Also Matt Grant has a nice thread here to help. The nice thing about sealed is you can mold it like clay, the curve to an extent. You can contour it (mostly withbcuts and a bit of gain) to match the overall rolloff of your ported. Then you can deal with phase and delay. With two sealeds, its easy that way. Withbtwo ported, youre fighting rolloff curves that differ and thats where cancellation issues arise. Thats what I think you may be battling.

Try this, sweep your Rhythmic. save the sweep. Then move your mag in same position as the Rhythmic and sweep your Mag. Save it. Then using the 60hz tune, cross over the two with a 24db/oct filter at or around the 60hz point. play with it a bit. Then sweep the two together playing as one and save that. Keep them close together for testing an put your mic about 1-2 meters away. adjust your gains with pink noise so both are the same. I use 75db as a random level to do this.

As for downfiring, you will lose some of the directional content above 80-100Hz up to your 150. Below 80 freq content is omni but up there it brings on some directional characteristics.

I feel your pain on the WAF restrictions. Im currently making my HS24s into Stone clad tables with Custom Formica Tops... Notbing to see here just some nice tables. Waiiiiiitttt! Dont put your drink on that table!!!!


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Discussion Starter #52
So for your Rhythmic Sub, I read on line that the tune depends on if you plug a port and throw an associated switch. Like 18Hz or something nice like that.

So for mixing subs, sealed and sealed is best. Next best is sealed and Ported and least is ported and ported. Read up on the threads on MSO - Multi Sub Optimizer and some of the oages on MiniDSP. Also Matt Grant has a nice thread here to help. The nice thing about sealed is you can mold it like clay, the curve to an extent. You can contour it (mostly withbcuts and a bit of gain) to match the overall rolloff of your ported. Then you can deal with phase and delay. With two sealeds, its easy that way. Withbtwo ported, youre fighting rolloff curves that differ and thats where cancellation issues arise. Thats what I think you may be battling.

Try this, sweep your Rhythmic. save the sweep. Then move your mag in same position as the Rhythmic and sweep your Mag. Save it. Then using the 60hz tune, cross over the two with a 24db/oct filter at or around the 60hz point. play with it a bit. Then sweep the two together playing as one and save that. Keep them close together for testing an put your mic about 1-2 meters away. adjust your gains with pink noise so both are the same. I use 75db as a random level to do this.

As for downfiring, you will lose some of the directional content above 80-100Hz up to your 150. Below 80 freq content is omni but up there it brings on some directional characteristics.

I feel your pain on the WAF restrictions. Im currently making my HS24s into Stone clad tables with Custom Formica Tops... Notbing to see here just some nice tables. Waiiiiiitttt! Dont put your drink on that table!!!!


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Thanks for all of the input! I have a few options here. I have a crown XLS 2002 laying around as well as 2 Rotel 981's. I could build some compact boxes for the HO's up front and then hide my MBM's literally next to my Rythmiks and do the crossover. I could try the HO sealed and sell off the amps and the MBM's. I could do the HO's vented and tuned to 20Hz...
Possible scenarios:

  • 1) Rythmik + MBM Crossed Over
    • Pro: Cheapest and quickest option
    • Con: sound still may not be what I'm after
  • 2) Rythmik + MBM + HO's sealed
    • Pro: smaller more attractive footprint up front (.9 cuft box)
    • Con: HO's are "supposedly" don't belong in sealed boxes; Added complexity and cost
  • 3) Rythmik + MBM + HO's vented
    • Pro: I could get that HO down to 20Hz for insane output
    • Con: Could have issues blending the subs? (3 at diff tune)
  • 4) Rythmik + HO Sealed
    • Pro: could sell the MBM's and 2 Rotels or 1 2002 XLS to subsidize the cost; less complexity overall; smaller boxes; if I like the sealed I could do some DO's in a near close box size (downward and upward firing)
    • Con: HO's alledged not to belong in a sealed box; have to sell the MBM's and amps; if I do the DO then I'll have to purchase an additional Crown XLS 2002
  • 5) Rythmik + HO Vented
    • Pro: Could get near the tune to blend; HO belongs in MBM; potential to get the sound I'm after with box nearly the same size
    • Con: have to sell the MBM's and amps; may have phasing issue
  • 6) Rythmik + Paradigm Seismic 110
    • Pro: Guaranteed the sound I'm after. Much less complexity because it comes with a plate amp
    • Con: have to sell XLS 2002, Rotel 981's, Mag 12's; don't get the rewarding DIY experience; for 2 it'll cost be about 800 for 1 assuming I can sell all that gear. Would be another $1650 for a second...
I'm going to do option 1 first; if I like it then I'll build 2 boxes and try and 2, 3, 4, 5; if I don't like that then I'll go for option 6 and be fairly defeated...
 

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If 1 doesn't work I'd go with Option J or J2

Option J- Keep MBM's, Sell Rythmiks, Buy 18's (1000w), build 22" cubes. Crown XLS2002 on 18's (Fi HT-1's have a single 2 ohm option) Rotels on MBM's. Enjoy way more bass:cool:

Option J2- Keep MBM's, Sell Rythmiks, Buy 18, 21, 24 (2000w), build sealed or vented box. Crown XLS2002 on 18, 21, or 24. Rotels on MBM's. Enjoy way more bass:cool:

Looked at the Paradigm Seismic 110. Honestly not sure what is so special about this guy, other then it's small. On Databass their flagship Sub 2 ($10,500 msrp) is outperformed throughout most of the range by a single sealed UM18.
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
If 1 doesn't work I'd go with Option J or J2

Option J- Keep MBM's, Sell Rythmiks, Buy 18's (1000w), build 22" cubes. Crown XLS2002 on 18's (Fi HT-1's have a single 2 ohm option) Rotels on MBM's. Enjoy way more bass:cool:

Option J2- Keep MBM's, Sell Rythmiks, Buy 18, 21, 24 (2000w), build sealed or vented box. Crown XLS2002 on 18, 21, or 24. Rotels on MBM's. Enjoy way more bass:cool:

Looked at the Paradigm Seismic 110. Honestly not sure what is so special about this guy, other then it's small. On Databass their flagship Sub 2 ($10,500 msrp) is outperformed throughout most of the range by a single sealed UM18.
Thanks for the feedback! That actually is a good idea too. I would need to hear the Daytons first. I'd have to sell the Rythmiks in a 4 hour radius from Madison, WI. The shipping and packing would be prohibitively expensive. I could probably get $800 to $900 for the pair.
For the Seismic, the sub appears to employ two voice coils and two magnetic gaps like the jbl differential drive at high excursion the coil moving inside the magnet structure meets an opposing magnetic field from the opposite gap to create a 'braking effect'.
 

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Thanks for the feedback! That actually is a good idea too. I would need to hear the Daytons first. I'd have to sell the Rythmiks in a 4 hour radius from Madison, WI. The shipping and packing would be prohibitively expensive. I could probably get $800 to $900 for the pair.
For the Seismic, the sub appears to employ two voice coils and two magnetic gaps like the jbl differential drive at high excursion the coil moving inside the magnet structure meets an opposing magnetic field from the opposite gap to create a 'braking effect'.

Yeah, I saw the voice coil configuration, very unique, not sure how it translates to real world performance though. The only measurements I could find on the 110 were in the middle of someones room, which isn't very helpful. I just don't think that a 10" with 800w would provide enough SPL for home theater. Depending on the liveliness of your room these might hit reference, but just barely. Personally, I think that most decent subwoofers with adequate motor strength will sound fine in there intended frequency range. How they are setup and tuned is the most important thing IMO.


A B&C DS115 21" might solve all your problems, tons of midbass, lot's of low bass as well.
https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=144&mset=169
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
You're likely getting some cancellation issues. After you tune the MBM lower you should turn off both Rythmik subs and put the MBM in the same place as one of them and feed it some power.

FOHTech, any idea how one of the MBM's should compare to two of those LVX 12" subwoofers for midbass?
You're likely getting some cancellation issues. After you tune the MBM lower you should turn off both Rythmik subs and put the MBM in the same place as one of them and feed it some power.



FOHTech, any idea how one of the MBM's should compare to two of those LVX 12" subwoofers for midbass?


So the 12” sub you have hasnt been tested by Ricci, however he has done an FV15HP. It seems this model has more output and a larger cone so I woukd say maybe take 3db or more off of these numbers. Both ports open, the FV15 does 119.5 at 50, so I would say youre 12 may Max Burst 116 or so both ports open. The Mag will do better. If youre tuned for 60Hz, then if I recall when I designed mine, your 60-70 levels should be higher than 121. The FV15 is 120 at 70, so the Mag MBM should outperform the FV15 and definately your 12. I would focus your time on doing the below test Erich and I recommend, however you will need to set up some HP filtering on the Rhythmic or use an REW system.

Mixing an MBM and a sub that has low extension and conpletely different tune is not going to work. You have two options, first run the MBM crossed at 40s and above and the LVX12 below that and work out the integration at the crossover point, or... purchase a MiniDSP device, and read about the ways of integrating subwoofers of different tune and output in a space. Its time consuming. I’m sure youre getting cancellation and nulls Erich had a great simple test. run just the Mag12 in the Rhythmic spot and aee what you get. Also, ears can lie, If you dont have any REW type equipment, then use your iphone or android device and just compare results using a SPL meter app, just for comparison. Keep everything the same.

These drivers are truly a great design. I’m going to be upgrading my amps to them, as my amp is running out of steam before these drivers are. A true higher voltage 1000-1200watts per pair at 4ohms will do the trick. Electrically they will handle 1000w, and with a steep HP at 30Hz and a tune at 42, Im getting great use of Xmax. Granted my house curve peaks are eating up alot of headroom in the amp and excursion, buuuuuuuut man, does it sound GOOD! I’m going to be purchasing more. Very soon. Another 6db.... YES Please!! Lol. If you don’t like yours let me know!! I need the Over 50 Content needs to keep up with my sub 50 content going to my sealed HS24s. Saving all that excusrion and energy usage above 40 from my HS24s for more VLF content. The drivers are both operating efficiently in their wheelhouse.


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After re-tuning these to 40Hz they sound much better!

Too bad I have the DIY bug again... I may replace the rythmiks with some 15’s or 18’s (likely 15’s based on being limited to my crown xls 2002 wattage)
 

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After re-tuning these to 40Hz they sound much better!

Too bad I have the DIY bug again... I may replace the rythmiks with some 15’s or 18’s (likely 15’s based on being limited to my crown xls 2002 wattage)

If its power that's limiting you and not space, it is better to get a larger sub as that will give you more oompf for you push.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
After re-tuning these to 40Hz they sound much better!

Too bad I have the DIY bug again... I may replace the rythmiks with some 15’s or 18’s (likely 15’s based on being limited to my crown xls 2002 wattage)

If its power that's limiting you and not space, it is better to get a larger sub as that will give you more oompf for you push.
I may try out that Dayton HO 15. I can get it in a 2 cuft box sealed!

I’m really liking these mags since I lowered the tune. I’m oddly kind of bummed because I want to build something. I suppose I can redo the boxes and try an all sealed set up.
I may try to replace those rythmiks..

bottom line is I like the midbass now that I lowered the tune!
 
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I may try out that Dayton HO 15. I can get it in a 2 cuft box sealed!

I’m really liking these mags since I lowered the tune. I’m oddly kind of bummed because I want to build something. I suppose I can redo the boxes and try an all sealed set up.
I may try to replace those rythmiks..

bottom line is I like the midbass now that I lowered the tune!
I wouldn't seal up the Mag 12's
 

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I agree with Trimlock I'd definitely keep the Mag 12's ported. You could stuff the ports in your current boxes and see if you like it, but these are pretty much designed to go in a vented box. Don't be surprised if your f3 is 90-100hz, vs 40-50hz in a proper vented box.

Also 18>15. If you plan on sealed you want to go with 18's. Sealed 15's aren't going to be that much of an upgrade over ported 12's. 2kw is enough for a couple decent 18's, or one pretty good one.
 
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