Making a Screen: The Indefinitive Guide

Noah,


Funny. I started painting my screen this evening in my garage. One word of advice, bugs like to check out your white paint in the evening. Opppps. I am following the exact steps that Mr. Wigggles provided in the following thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000483.html


Other than the bugs, so far, so good. -Pat


[This message has been edited by paddy (edited 10-29-2000).]

Hi Noah!


It will come as no surprise to you that I'm partial to Canadian mixtures. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


However I did a little fiddling around with paint myself, and noticed a definite interaction between the 2 last layers of whatever paint you will be using. Actually, I either gained or lost certain reflective characteristics (brightness versus deeper and truer colors) alternating between a coat of bright white interior paint (the local equivalent to Sherman Williams luminous or Behr ultra-pure white) and a coat of a mix of artist titanium white and gesso.



If I make another test screen, I will probably use a base coat of (1/2 Latex interior paint, 1/4 Gesso and 1/4 artist titanium white) to increase the screens in depth reflective power more than with a "flat latex only" base coat, and a top coat with about 1/3 of each. If there is still a little color shift, then I'd try to isolate which is the culprit (the gesso or the titanium white) and then reduce its proportions in one more top coat.



Couldn't locate any perlescent powder here, but maybe Mr Wiggles' eggshell paint uses the same stuff and can either be mixed with the flat white latex or even replace it either in the base coat or the top coat. Once again, I was staggered by the differences in results between sequences of layers - getting the correct balance between several layers could possibly allow a wider variety of results: for example a bright highly reflective coating could give very poor results as a top coat but give that extra "punch" if it is kept one or two coats beneath the top layer of paint...



These are just speculative ideas, so take them for what they're worth - with a grain of salt.

You may also want to look into Alan Gouger's thread "Screen shadowbox have their advantages.." to which KBK also contributed for our benefit: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000363.html



I'll be trying to implement the following design with KBK's screenpaint. You can understand why I would want the best "deluxe screen goop" around after going to this kind of trouble making a framed screen, which may even incorporate built-in custom speakers...



--------------viewer is here---------------

............................................................

............................................................

............................................................

\\......................................................... /

\\\\........................................................//

\\\\\\U========== screen ===========U ///



Hope some of this helps you and others in the forum.

Good luck and thanks in advance for posting your ispirations and/or results.


Cheers,


------------------


Brett


[This message has been edited by Brett (edited 11-06-2000).]

Well, I'm trying to finish the Grey/Silver side of my DIY screen. I went to the Sherwin Williams dealer and got some grey paint that closely matches the Kodak grey. I opened the can in my garage, and started to paint, and looked at the paint... and, boy is it grey. It was too late so I went ahead and painted the grey side with the new paint. Sure enough, it seems too dark for what I wanted. I had already previously painted a coat of paint on my grey side that matched my own idea of what the "silver screen" should look like, which is very close to my memory of my dad's screen that he used when he subjected our family to the "fun" family photographic slide shows (well, it seemed fun when I was eight!) Now, I'm thinking I'll go back to my version of silver. It is less dark and seems more likely to produce good results than the dark grey I just painted on my DIY screen. -Pat


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they used to call it, "the silver screen"

Pat,

As I feel I am largely responsible for your mishap with the 18% gray I sincerely apologize.


Only having read about it, I have been under the mistaken impression that 18% gray is the equivalent of a more light than dark .82 gain value. In fact, it is a more dark than light .18 gain value. Oooooops!
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000571.html


Going back to the top of the forum that mentioned the sherwin williams paint, the purpose for this value was for painting the walls of the home theater space and not the screem http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif . I hope you can use it as such and not have completely wasted the material!


This is truly a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.


Sorry!


------------------


Todd

The HT-2-B

Thanks for all the advice/suggestions guys. I'm nearly done with my screen and I've learned quite a few things so far:


1. I think my choice of screen surface was less than ideal. The canvas just has too much texture. Maybe I should have used a primer, that might have smoothed it out a bit before the other layers were applied. I'm thinking of doing a little light sanding before I paint the final coat, but I don't want to strip away too much of the Gesso layer. Also, after 2 coats of latex and a coat of Gesso, it seems that there is still a bit of light leaking through the back of the screen. Hopefully that will be reduced by the final pearlescent layer. If I repeat this I would probably use a solid surface like a sheet of drywall, tile board, or some other material.


2. The addition of floetrol to the Mautz latex paint was very helpful. Thanks to Mr Wigggles for the suggestion. It really made it roll on smoothly and evenly. I used water to thin out the Gesso, as per the official Dick Blick intstructions (I love that name too, Mr Wigggles), but that didn't seems as smooth as the Floetrol-thinned latex paint.


3. In my test strips I found that the Pearlescent Medium (heavily thinned with Floetrol) makes an ideal final layer. It seems to be the key ingredient in producing gain. I also tried a Gesso/pearlescent layer and a pure pearlescent layer, but neither looked as good as the thinned pearlescent. The gesso/pearlescent looked no different than the flat white latex while the pure pearlescent looked too metallic and silvery.



If I find the canvas texture too distracting, I think I might try a very simple combination of white blackout fabric painted with one layer of thinned pearlescent medium. The rubber side of blackout fabric has no texture and is a very bright white, while the pearlescent medium would add gain. It sounds too easy but I think it would work quite well. I'd try it myself but the Home Theater fund is a little low at the moment. In any case, I'll let you guys know how the finished product looks.


Noah

Primer would have helped, but more coats of paint will pretty much accomplish the same thing, IMHO. The bottom line is that canvas is not a completely smooth surface. I would think that more coats of paint will help smooth it out and seal up the "leaks".


The smooth surface side of my Tile Board helped give me a very smooth starting surface, but I used a premium brand primer to help the future coats of paint stick to its surface. I'm painting both sides of the tile board, and even the rough side worked out well with the primer. I also used Floetrol-thinned paint. It also helped smooth out the paint. But, AFAIK, the paint will never be perfectly smooth. I have never seen a home application of paint become perfectly smooth. Of course, I'm not a master painter, but even when I buy premium tools, I can't get the paint perfectly smooth.


The advantage of a canvas screen, is that you can have pretty much any resonable size or proportion custom made for your application. AFAIK, With tile board you can not get any larger than 8'x 4' without getting a seam. But a big advantage of the tile board is that it is much less expensive than custom framed canvas. You could always frame your own, though. Which is basically what you are suggesting you will do with framed black-out fabric. Let us know how that works out. There are plenty of threads on this forum concerning framing your own fabric.


Good luck with your continuing experiment. I hope to have mine done today.

-Pat


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they used to call it, "the silver screen"

Pat,


How much is a 4 x 8 tile board? I'm thinking of scrapping the canvas in favor of something else before I waste too much expensive paint on it. BTW, I did stretch and frame my own canvas and it worked quite well. When I started out, the canvas had several highly visible creases in it from being folded at the fabric store. I did what I could to iron them out, but they were still visible as I began attaching the fabric to the frame. I used carpet tacks to nail the canvas to the 1x4s. I started out by nailing the canvas down on the top edge of the frame, starting in the center and stretching as I went, nailing it down at 6" intervals. I then nailed down the opposite edge in the same way, and then the left and right side. At this point the canvas was fairly tight and the previously distinct wrinkles were hardly visible. I ironed again with the canvas on the frame. And then I realized I could make it even tighter by nailing it down more. I added more nails to the back side of the 1x4s in between the nails on the edges of the 1x4s while stretching the canvas down as far as possible. That might be a little hard to imagine so I'll diagram it:


top view of the edge of a 1x4 on the outside edge of the frame:


---------------------------------------------------------------

N_____6"______N_____6"______N______6"_____N_____6"_____N

---------------------------------------------------------------


top view of the same 1x4 on the back side of the frame:


---------------------------------------------------------------



_______N_____6"______N______6"_____N_____6"______N______

---------------------------------------------------------------


You can imagine how the lower nails take up the slack that the 6" nail spacing causes while allowing the canvas to be stretched more than simply adding nails in between on the top edge to give a 3" interval. OK, so this is nothing revolutionary but it really seemed to help tighten and stretch the canvas. This thing is like a drum now and there are no wrinkles at all.


Also, I forgot to mention in my previous post a certain painting tool that I've found very helpful. When I was at the local Menards (no Home Depot here http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif ) they had a "painting set" made by One Coat that came with a roller/handle, a roller tray, and an edger. I bought the set since it was cheaper than buying the roller and tray seperately. Take a look at a picture of an edger here . I've found that using this tool to smooth out the paint after its been applied with a roller has been very helpful. If there's any uneven distribution of paint, this thing can take care of it and it doesn't leave any kind of track or texture in the paint. It also cleans up very well and can be used over and over. I'm even thinking of using just the edger to paint the final coat. I've seen wider versions of these things that should be able to take the place of the roller in screen painting.


Well, Pat, let me know how it turns out, and I'll do the same.


Thanks,


Noah


[This message has been edited by Noah (edited 11-10-2000).]

This thread brings back some memories of canvas and paint several months ago.


I gave up because I couldn't get things sufficiently uniform on canvas which had too much texture.


Doing a frame oneself saves a lot of money, to the point if one could find suitable screen material one could reach closure. I myself prefer silver/gray like Pat's been trying.


I got swatches of the DaLite fabric.The DaLite SuperWonder Lite looks like canvas with a tighter weave and aluminum paint.


The Gray DaMat is gray vinyl with best guess being 40% grey. (I don't know where they get the .8 gain from, a 90% Kodak card looks white, and its much closer to an 18% gray than a 90%)


The Gray DaMat would look pretty good if they through some silver in it.



------------------

Ken Elliott

Noah:


If you decide to paint on the canvas again, try placing some supporting structure beneath it. This will immensly help the situation regarding the eveness of the rolling of the paint. It will stop false 'edging' with each pass, due to the fact that it will hold the canvas perfectly flat as a painting surface.


Mr "W", by the way, appears to be breaking out in hives from the stress.


If you find a GLIDDEN paint distributor, then you will find the pearlecent powder igredient. Be careful with it. You will be breathing pure death around that stuff. Pure carbon black can also be found as LASER TONER. Great stuff, due to the exact, controlled particle size. Once it 'impregnates' a mixture, it can be counted on not to change in character due to mixing.


Mixing speed and time must be exact each batch.


If you wish to share results, this must be included as information.


Your exact last request there, was going to be mine as well. It could only have gotten worse.


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---Place Signature Here---

Noah,


The tile board was $9.89 plus tax. It is on the same aisle as the wood trim at "my" Home Depot. The board has one side that looks like a corrugated card-board and the other side has a glossy white, plastic looking, type of finish (but it is too glossy for a projector, it would reflect too much) I suppose it is for paneling walls in bathrooms or kitchens, since it was next to the wood paneling. I had a Home Depot employee cut it to a 86" length, since 86" x 48" is a 16:9 ratio (although my projector has a 4:3 aspect). I figure I can use YXY or something on an HTPC to scale. I don't know because it has not been completely built yet and I don't have it. I have commissioned Wayne (XCEL) on the HTPC forum to build it for me, since he knows what he is doing. I digress...


You have to put some latex primer coats on the glossy side so that your white paint can stick to it. And, if you want to use the cardboard side, you obviously have to prime to smooth the surface out. I got the premium primer, at Home Depot, the product name was "1-2-3 Primer".


With regard to the top coats, even with the Floetrol-thinned paint it will not be perfectly smooth. I believe that is just the nature of the application equipment. I used the Purdy White Dove smooth surface rollers. I have never tried a spray paint machine; it would probably make a smoother finish. I painted two coats of the white paint on top of two coats of primer on the glossy side. On the rough side, I painted three coats of primer and five coats of silver/grey. I wish that I had done about five coats of primer on the rough side. I recommend more than three coats of primer on the rough side because I can still barely see the original surface. I used a new clean Purdy roller for every coat just to be safe. That was the biggest expense at $3.35 for each roller. I probably could have reused a thoroughly cleaned primer roller on the rough side.


I am also framing it with 1"x2" poplar wood trim painted black and with a groove next to the screen so that it can hold black card board masks. I am hoping this will help give a shadow-box effect which supposedly will fool the eye into believing that it is a bigger picture than it already will be. Of course the frame is taking 1.5" off of the the perimeter so the screen's final proportions will be 83"x45". I am hoping that it will be sufficient size since I will be sitting 11' away from it. It should be, but size and distance is a matter of personal preference and another thread indeed.


It is not perfect. But considering the low cost, and the fact that I don't know yet what size of screen I really want, and that I will have two sides with two different paint colors, I thought it would be a great way to start. Mr Wigggles gets all of the credit. He was the first to tell me about the tile board, and I followed his advice. He is a very helpful person indeed, despite his fun posts. -Pat


PS. Don't give up on the canvas just yet. You have to expect to spend some money on several coats of paint. I think you are doing a better job with the canvas than I would have. Besides, you have to accept the occasional mistakes while experimenting and learning. It is the way of these things and only natural. Keep up the fight! It's for a great cause. The Movies!


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they used to call it, "the silver screen"


[This message has been edited by paddy (edited 11-10-2000).]


[This message has been edited by paddy (edited 11-10-2000).]

Thanks Paddy,


Although it is aparent to some extent that the dark fiber board is showing through, I did not have the same problem. I used Behr's own primer/sealer. I did two coats of it and three coats of eggshell ultra pure white and I think it is pretty much as bright as it gets.


I would also like to further describe the not completely smooth surface we both have for the thousands who might be reading. The micro bumps are subpixel in size and really aren't much of an issue. However, you can "buff" or sand them donw if you have 2 or more coats.


I haven't done it yet because I don't think it will help all that much. (For a flat gain surface I am pretty darn happy with what I have.) But for glossier surface these micro bumps might actually help diffuse a potential hotspot.


With this in mind, I am a little greedy. I will be getting a sample of Da-lite's perlescent screen surface which has a gain of 2.0. If I like what I see, I will try and copy it with a coating of higher gloss paint on my current screen. If I think the da-lite is unbeatable, I will order it cut-to-size which is actually quite affordable ~$10/square ft. I will then mount it on top of my current screen which is flexible but sturdy (i.e. I can curve the screen a little more or less if I need to).


Bottom line: whatever happens my experimenting will not be fruitless.


I will keep you informed. I should be trying this comparison next weekend.


-Mr. Wigggles


Ps. Kelliot, a screen that has gain gets the extra output by reflecting more light back to the center viewers and less to the side viewers. Let's call this "reflective gain". There is also gain associated with the color of the screem. For pure white this would be 1.0 and then lower for other shades of grey. For lack of a better term, let's call this "whiteness level". All screen's can be aproximated by these two factors. It would be possible to make a grey screen that had a reflective gain of 2.0 and a whiteness level of .4 which would equal .8 total for on-axis viewers. Without the material infront of me, maybe this is what Da-lite did. Anyway, for your particular viewing situation a screen with some reflective gain might be good. Day light coming from your side windows would bounce across your screen and hit the wall on the other side while less of this light would be reflected back to the viewers which are more centrally located. Just a thought.


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The Mothership is now boarding.


[This message has been edited by MrWigggles (edited 11-11-2000).]


[This message has been edited by MrWigggles (edited 11-11-2000).]

MrWiggles,


Can't agree more with the definitions. I would prefer to call it reflective gain and absorptive attenuation to describe the physics more accurately, but that's just semantics.


The problem with that argument is that I my gray Dalite sample doesn't seem to have much reflective gain. One side seems to work better than the other and it is slightly shinier but its still dark. I have a Kodak gray card for comparison under diffuse ambient. The gain of the Super Wonder Lite is very obvious.


It is still just too dark. The DaLite Super Wonder Lite is just a little too bright and susceptible to texture-related distortion. The Gray DaMat is a matte gray version of a matte white.


Ralph Lauren Candlelight Silver from Home Depot comes very close to the Super Wonder Lite but I could never get it uniform. I even used some lamp black to darken it some.


If Dalite just threw a little aluminum powder in the Gray DaLite Mix and removed some of the lamp black, it would start coming close to ideal. Then I'd just buy it from DaLite. (or Stewart or Draper or Vutec if they do it).


Also, it doesn't take a lot of gray to begin to improve the image. I have (best estimate) 1300 lumens into 100" diagonal right now with a 75% gray. Note that I'm using fabric because it was much more uniform than my paint. The back side of the fabric is vinyl and almost the same color as the gray DaMat. The weave is not perfectly uniform and that shows under certain conditions. It still looks pretty decent for the price and I'd never trade it for white.


The gray helps a lot and I still can watch with some ambient. With the Gray DaLite, I'd need a G20 DILA for the ideal image, but its a bit beyond my budget. I'm hoping for the Panamorph to fold the brightness from 4:3 into 16:9 to get some help.



------------------

Ken Elliott

KBK,


I discovered the need for a supporting surface beneath the canvas after my first coat and have since been using a large coffee table that just fits in between the framing boards. It does help keep the paint even and smooth, especially with a roller.


Unfortunately the only Glidden dealer in town (the not so well stocked Menards) doesn't carry the pearlescent powder, but I think the pearlescent medium will have the same sort of effect. In my test strips I haven't had the best luck in mixing the medium with paint. It doesn't add the expected pearlescence (maybe that's where the powder would work better) so I was planning to use the medium itself as a top coat, heavily thinned with Floetrol.



Pat,


No, I'm not giving up on the canvas yet. It's good to know that there's a solid, cheap surface material in tile board, though.


Quote:
Mr Wigggles,


I'm a little surprised to hear you recommending eggshell and glossy paint. I've always thought that flat/matte is the only thing that wouldn't result in hotspotting. It makes sense that more gloss = more gain, but the nature of gloss seems to produce a more specular rather than the desired diffuse reflection. I'm rethinking my next few coats of paint. Do you think adding in a few layers of a bright white gloss or eggshell paint would help add gain while still avoiding hotspotting?


Here's what I've done so far:

1. Mautz 100 flat white latex

2. 2nd coat of Mautz

3. Thinned matte gesso


At this point I was planning on just finishing with thinned pearlescent medium, but with the surface texture as rough as it is and light still leaking through the canvas, I'm not sure I'd be happy with the result. Any thoughts on adding a coat or two of gloss or semi-gloss/eggshell followed by some matte gesso (to tame down the gloss) before the final coat of pearlescent medium? I think the gloss might address my concerns by smoothing the surface a bit and preventing leaked light.


On the other hand, I'm still wondering if eggshell would produce too much added texture and gloss would cause hotspotting. Well, I guess that's the nature of experimentaton.


Noah

I tried my grey paint screen today, and I don't really like it much. I tried a "torture" test and projected the Antarctica snow scenes in The X-Files and the snow looked blue, even when the brightness was boosted way up. I suspect it is because the grey paint I selected was mixed with a blue hue. I will have to have a grey made that has only white and black in the formula. I seem to remember a thread about a guy that went to Home Depot and kept having the attendant mix a little more and more black into the white paint until he got the grey he wanted.


As a side note: I found that my viewing room's dimensions are not going to cooperate with my UP1100 projector. The distance from the projector's position to the screen is causing the image to be too big. I knew it would be close, but unfortunately the 45" height of my screen isn't enough. So, I either have to move the projector out away from its shelf and more into the room, or move the screen closer to the projector, which will put it too close to the viewing area. Problems, problems, problems...


Of course I could always buy a commercial screen that has larger dimensions, but that would take some personal pride and accomplishment out of my endeavor. -Pat


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they used to call it, "the silver screen"

Quote:
KBK,


My goal in trying to reduce the light that seems to be leaking through the screen was to increase gain. In my mind if light passes through the screen it is not being reflected back to the viewer and gain is reduced. My weak understanding of physics suggests that black paint on the reverse of the screen will not reflect this leaked light but absorb it. I don't want a fully opaque canvas if light is being absorbed rather than reflected. I would guess that additional coats of paint applied to the front of the screen would help reduce this leakage, or perhaps a more reflective coat on the reverse. I wonder if a metallic silver layer sprayed on the back would result in increased reflectance. Any thoughts on that? I would guess that a fully opaque material such as drywall or tile board has a early advantage over canvas or other fabrics. On the other hand, simply because light does not pass through a material doesn't mean it is reflected.


Hmmm, well I'm thoroughly confused. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/confused.gif


I guess the leaking light is just a sign that I need more coats of paint on the front to reflect it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but more coats on the front versus a black coat on the back seems to be a choice between reflection and absorption. In seeking high gain, reflection is the obvious choice.


Noah