[NorthTV]

Since I assume this issue would relate to both the JVC and Sony full HD 3D camcorders, hopefully someone has already found a simple solution for making multiple full HD 3D copies on more than one external media device. With the Sony I am able to download 3D video onto a USB connected external hard drive without any problem. However, when I try to hook up a second USB connected hard drive the camera recognizes that I have already downloaded the 3D (and all other) files that were on the camera's hard drive and will not let me do it again on a separate external hard drive. (The files are still on the camera's hard drive.) Is there a work around to accomplish what I am trying to do by simply somehow telling the camera that I want it to repeat the original download to a second USB connected external hard drive?


The advantage of having the same data on two different external hard drives is not only for back-up but also I could then just mail the small hard drive to someone else who has the same camcorder and they could attach it to their camcorder and see the 3D videos I have taken without my having put them into a compromised format that degrades the resolution or reduces the bit rate. You can now get a 750 GB USB connectable hard drive for close to $50.00 - the price of a 16 GB SD card.

 

[markr041]

Why not just attach the first hard drive you copied to to a computer along with a second new hard drive and copy the files from the first to the second? This will be much faster than copying from the camcorder again anyway.


Why is copying a second time from the camcorder directly to a second drive so important when this alternative is easy? I'm sure you are aware of this alternative, so what is the point (I understand why you might want the same files on two hard drives)?

 

[NorthTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 /forum/post/20834598


Why not just attach the first hard drive you copied to to a computer along with a second new hard drive and copy the files from the first to the second? This will be much faster than copying from the camcorder again anyway.


Why is copying a second time from the camcorder directly to a second drive so important when this alternative is easy? I'm sure you are aware of this alternative, so what is the point (I understand why you might want the same files on two hard drives)?

Thanks. Yes, I had considered that alternative but wasn't sure it would work since I have never tried to copy something from one external hard drive to another. I do have multiple USB ports on my laptop so I assume all that would be required is to plug each external hard drive into them though from there I would welcome some basic suggestions as to what screens and prompts I need to go to next.


By the way, a separate question. Anyone know if once on an external media device whether both the JVC and Sony can recognize the Full HD 3D files for playback when connected to a 3D TV? I know another Sony 3D camcorder will be able to use the external media USB connected hard drive to play onto a 3D TV via the camcorder, but can a JVC 3D camcorder do the same with media that was originally recorded on a Sony and vice-versa?

 

[markr041]

"However, when I try to hook up a second USB connected hard drive the camera recognizes that I have already downloaded the 3D (and all other) files that were on the camera's hard drive and will not let me do it again on a separate external hard drive. (The files are still on the camera's hard drive.)"


This is INCORRECT.


1. It is true you get the message first that there are no files to copy if you have already copied all the files. That is just the auto mode check.


2. All you have to do is go into the menu, select copy, select copy to an external device, select multiple copies (not events), and you will get the option to copy all the files again to an external drive, erasing the copy history (not the files).


This is NOT a workaround, a flaw, or a shortcoming of the camcorder. You just need to go into the menu.


I've done this - just for you.

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 /forum/post/20834725


"However, when I try to hook up a second USB connected hard drive the camera recognizes that I have already downloaded the 3D (and all other) files that were on the camera's hard drive and will not let me do it again on a separate external hard drive. (The files are still on the camera's hard drive.)"


This is INCORRECT.


1. It is true you get the message first that there are no files to copy if you have already copied all the files. That is just the auto mode check.


2. All you have to do is go into the menu, select copy, select copy to an external device, select multiple copies (not events), and you will get the option to copy all the files again to an external drive, erasing the copy history (not the files).


This is NOT a workaround, a flaw, or a shortcoming of the camcorder. You just need to go into the menu.


I've done this - just for you.

This is good info markr041. It implies that the TD10 camcorder keeps track of which files have not yet been backed up, and stores this information in the camcorder rather than looking to see if the file is on the drive already.

 

[NorthTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 /forum/post/20834725


"However, when I try to hook up a second USB connected hard drive the camera recognizes that I have already downloaded the 3D (and all other) files that were on the camera's hard drive and will not let me do it again on a separate external hard drive. (The files are still on the camera's hard drive.)"


This is INCORRECT.


1. It is true you get the message first that there are no files to copy if you have already copied all the files. That is just the auto mode check.


2. All you have to do is go into the menu, select copy, select copy to an external device, select multiple copies (not events), and you will get the option to copy all the files again to an external drive, erasing the copy history (not the files).


This is NOT a workaround, a flaw, or a shortcoming of the camcorder. You just need to go into the menu.


I've done this - just for you.

Thanks! Agree with Richard that this is great info. When you say it "erases the copy history" does that mean only for the task at hand and that it will still be there if you don't go into the menu the next time you attach your external hard drive? In other words, does the auto mode check still work so that when you simply want to just add the new files to your external hard drive it will do so the next time around?

 

[NorthTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthTV /forum/post/20834718



By the way, a separate question. Anyone know if once on an external media device whether both the JVC and Sony can recognize the Full HD 3D files for playback when connected to a 3D TV? I know another Sony 3D camcorder will be able to use the external media USB connected hard drive to play onto a 3D TV via the camcorder, but can a JVC 3D camcorder do the same with media that was originally recorded on a Sony and vice-versa?

Any takers on the separate question? (I know, I should have started a new thread.) To further clarify the question, I'm simply asking if I send my external hard drive on which I have downloaded the 3D video taken on my Sony 3D camcorder to someone who has a JVC 3D camcorder, can they play it back through their camcorder onto a 3D TV? Likewise, can I use my Sony camcorder to playback 3D recorded on a JVC that is sent to me on an external hard drive?

 

[Don Landis]

The Sony will see a JVC file as a corrupted file and disregard it just as it would an excel or MS word file on that hard drive. Not sure if a JVC will see a Sony File structure. Doubt it.



Along similar lines, I have a question to see if anyone has done this yet-

I have a 3D project I need to edit in Vegas to render to a single MVC file ( m2TS) using a "render as" template. Once I have that file I would like to export it back to the TD10 memory using PMB to play for others that do not have any 3D equipment or for those who have a 3D monitor I can simply connect to with hdmi and not need to carry a 3DBD around.


I have done this using PMB many times for 2D HD videos that played back on my SR12 but have never tried to reverse the process for 3D and the TD10.


Also, The end file would be larger than 2Gb so it would need to be split into multiple mts files for the TD10 to store it on the FAT32 memory.

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20836878


The Sony will see a JVC file as a corrupted file and disregard it just as it would an excel or MS word file on that hard drive. Not sure if a JVC will see a Sony File structure. Doubt it.



Along similar lines, I have a question to see if anyone has done this yet-

I have a 3D project I need to edit in Vegas to render to a single MVC file ( m2TS) using a "render as" template. Once I have that file I would like to export it back to the TD10 memory using PMB to play for others that do not have any 3D equipment or for those who have a 3D monitor I can simply connect to with hdmi and not need to carry a 3DBD around.


I have done this using PMB many times for 2D HD videos that played back on my SR12 but have never tried to reverse the process for 3D and the TD10.


Also, The end file would be larger than 2Gb so it would need to be split into multiple mts files for the TD10 to store it on the FAT32 memory.

I did a PMB export to the TD10 of a PMB trimmed file which was 9GB. The result on the TD10 card was split files, just as if the camcorder had recorded contiguously, playing 3D.


Didn't test it with Vegas output though, so I wonder if the TD10 camcorder would inter-operate with and properly play back 1080p24 and 720p60 that were bluray compatible MVC, or if PMB would even allow exporting that.


Didn't try any of that yet.

 

[NorthTV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthTV Thanks! Agree with Richard that this is great info. When you say it "erases the copy history" does that mean only for the task at hand and that it will still be there if you don't go into the menu the next time you attach your external hard drive? In other words, does the auto mode check still work so that when you simply want to just add the new files to your external hard drive it will do so the next time around?

Well I made my duplicate copy today by simply attaching another external hard drive and then going into the menu. Going into the menu and following the copy prompts there I was able to confirm that the copy history is erased forever, not just for the task at hand. Since my priority was to get another backup of some important files on the hard drive (including 3D videos of travels in Hawaii, a professional magic show, a wedding, and an Alaska halibut fishing trip in Kachemak Bay and the waters of Cook Inlet) I was willing to sacrifice the convenience of not being able to take advantage of the nice,but not vital, copy history feature. As a matter of fact I actually made a third copy on yet another external USB connected hard drive for someone else who will most likely for the present just be watching the videos in 2D on their computer since they don't have a Sony 3D camcorder to play them back through to their 3D TV. Of course if and when they get access to a Sony 3D camcorder they can watch them in full HD 3D without compromised resolution or altered bit rate. They also have the option of doing their own editing if they so choose.


I am satisfied with this means of making duplicate copies without having to use a computer. I also like the fact that I have a pure copy that has not been altered by the limitations of Vegas with its compromises. While my concern is probably unfounded, I don't have to worry whether there have been any computer induced modifications that might have resulted from copying from one external hard drive to another via a computer.


Obviously this does not allow me to edit as Vegas would, but that is not an immediate need for now and I still have that option available when needed, or hopefully in the future when improved edit and copy means become available. If I have interpreted the manual correctly it sounds like I can selectively delete files off of one of my external hard drives to "edit" by deletion and of course with my other external hard drive I will still retain a complete master copy. It will be some time before I try this, but if anyone here is game let us know how it works out.

 

[Don Landis]

Richard- Thanks for your test results. I have yet to do even that much but you now have confirmed for me that at least the new rendition of PMB can export 3D originals back to the camcorder. Now, all I need to do is figure out the proper rendering that makes a m2ts of the completed veg file. I suppose I need to start by "rendering as" MVC in 1080 60i. Of course that option is not available. I'll try different renderings for something that will work. Even SBS, as I know the PQ will be less but at least getting something in 3D on the TD10 will be better than nothing. I'm thinking that at this time the simple approach may only yield 2D.


North-

I don't think you would need to worry doing a hard drive backup, clone or file copy from one drive to another using a computer. This method of file copy error free has been done for decades. Fact that this is a TD10 as the source doesn't change that. The process of making a clone of your first drive may even be a faster process using the computer and it frees up the camcorder for other things. But in the field and not having a computer to execute the clone the TD 10 second copy is a pretty good option. Glad you figured out how to do it.

Back in May I made a second hard drive copy with just the TD10 just fooling around so I knew it could be done. The only thing I have always subscribed to was to let the TD10 do the drive format. Any computer can do a FAT32 format but setting up the proper file tree on the drive is something that the TD10 will handle and then it is done right so the TD10 can use it.

 

[NorthTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20841077



North-

I don't think you would need to worry doing a hard drive backup, clone or file copy from one drive to another using a computer. This method of file copy error free has been done for decades. Fact that this is a TD10 as the source doesn't change that. The process of making a clone of your first drive may even be a faster process using the computer and it frees up the camcorder for other things. But in the field and not having a computer to execute the clone the TD 10 second copy is a pretty good option. Glad you figured out how to do it.

Back in May I made a second hard drive copy with just the TD10 just fooling around so I knew it could be done. The only thing I have always subscribed to was to let the TD10 do the drive format. Any computer can do a FAT32 format but setting up the proper file tree on the drive is something that the TD10 will handle and then it is done right so the TD10 can use it.

Thanks! Just got back from the Seward Silver Salmon Derby with some 3D video that looks like it is out of "The Deadliest Catch." We had up to 9 foot swells once we reached open ocean. Got a great 3D clip of a Silver Salmon being netted after it was pulled up out of the water on a nearby boat in the swirling sea.

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20841077


Richard- Thanks for your test results. I have yet to do even that much but you now have confirmed for me that at least the new rendition of PMB can export 3D originals back to the camcorder. Now, all I need to do is figure out the proper rendering that makes a m2ts of the completed veg file. I suppose I need to start by "rendering as" MVC in 1080 60i. Of course that option is not available. I'll try different renderings for something that will work. Even SBS, as I know the PQ will be less but at least getting something in 3D on the TD10 will be better than nothing. I'm thinking that at this time the simple approach may only yield 2D.


North-

I don't think you would need to worry doing a hard drive backup, clone or file copy from one drive to another using a computer. This method of file copy error free has been done for decades. Fact that this is a TD10 as the source doesn't change that. The process of making a clone of your first drive may even be a faster process using the computer and it frees up the camcorder for other things. But in the field and not having a computer to execute the clone the TD 10 second copy is a pretty good option. Glad you figured out how to do it.

Back in May I made a second hard drive copy with just the TD10 just fooling around so I knew it could be done. The only thing I have always subscribed to was to let the TD10 do the drive format. Any computer can do a FAT32 format but setting up the proper file tree on the drive is something that the TD10 will handle and then it is done right so the TD10 can use it.

Don, why not try to export a 1080p24 mvc output from vegas to the TD10. Maybe it will work??

 

[Don Landis]

I have that and a few others on my list of stuff to test. Keep getting side tracked on other projects. Wish some others would try these. Hint Hint

BTW- Response from Sony tech support was not too encouraging. I need to get face to face with those guys that know me and I'll get serious answers. Next that will happen will be in January. Are you going to CES?

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20856110


I have that and a few others on my list of stuff to test. Keep getting side tracked on other projects. Wish some others would try these. Hint Hint

BTW- Response from Sony tech support was not too encouraging. I need to get face to face with those guys that know me and I'll get serious answers. Next that will happen will be in January. Are you going to CES?

Maybe CES, though the long standing problem with Sony is the salt water diode.

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams /forum/post/20856322


Maybe CES, though the long standing problem with Sony is the salt water diode.

I clarify that "salt water diode" is a phrase I heard that refers to the apparent lack of Sony's interest in any feedback we might offer for their product development or improvement.


Salt Water Diode: Diode (electronic component) means that information flows only one way, from Japan to those in the USA. Salt water refers to the Pacific Ocean between Japan and the USA.


So "salt water diode," is an opinionated charge of Sony not listening to users, or at least they don't seem to recognize user input if Sony is secretly listening.

 

[Richard Adams]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20856110


I have that and a few others on my list of stuff to test. Keep getting side tracked on other projects. Wish some others would try these. Hint Hint

BTW- Response from Sony tech support was not too encouraging. I need to get face to face with those guys that know me and I'll get serious answers. Next that will happen will be in January. Are you going to CES?

Ok, I took the hint and tried a 1080p24 MVC m2ts file from an iso made with vegas with PMB. PMB recognized and analyzed the file. Playback within PMB stuttered, meaning that the video got stuck and jumped rather than playing smoothly. I did not try to trim this 1080p24 file with PMB.


I attempted to export the file to the TD10 with PMB. The process started and then I got a message that "some files could not be exported." Nice poltically correct response I suppose. It did not work. The 1080p24 file did not appear in the TD10, and the files previously in the TD10 do not appear to have been harmed by the attempt. It was a clean ending to a type of interoperability that is not supported.


Conclusions - Don's suspicion that the 1080p24 output of Sony vegas cannot be exported back to the TD10 for playback is correct. I have previously exported original 1080i60 TD10 files that were not processed by vegas without any issue, and exported files that were trimmed with PMB ok too,


Bottom line: Once you edit TD10 files with Vegas, you have to play them on a player other than the TD10, and PMB will recognize them but not play them correctly. At least that is what happened in this one experiment.

 

[Don Landis]

Thanks Richard for testing that . Now it's on my list of things to send to Sony dev team and to bust their chops about at CES if they don't give us this capability. Hope they will be there. Vegas team doesn't have a big presence at CES. That is why I also try to go to NAB in April, home of the free classes on Vegas.


BTW if you or anyone wants to attend or even thinking about attending CES- better go register on line before the end of the month as the free registration is over on 9-1-2011. I'd register even if only a remote chance you will go and save the fee.