[JeffY]

Microsoft are working with Broadcom to develop a low cost solution to replace the Dual Core processor found in the current Toshiba HD-DVD players. This will enable HD-DVD CE companies to develop simpler and cheaper players. Several Chinese manufacturers are on hand to manufacture players based on the new design. We should expect to see players in Q2/Q3 this year. Prices of the new players are unknown, however sub £200 might well be a possibility. If they can start to compete with regular upscaling DVD players then competition from Blu-Ray might become irrelevant as people can simply replace ageing DVD players.


Toshiba have announced a mid-range HD-DVD player called HD-A20, supporting HDMI 1.3 and 1080p. The player is expected to support true 1080P @ 24 fps, allowing playback without 3:2 judder. The retail price has been set at $599. A European model has also been announced called the HD-E1P, both are expected in spring 2007.


Onkyo has thrown it's hat in the format wars by declaring that it will make an HD-DVD player to be released some time in 2007. Initially the player will only be available in North America, however Onkyo have plans for the International market at a later stage.


Meridian have announced membership of the HD-DVD Promotion group and are working with Microsoft to develop high-end HD-DVD player designs. I see this as being similar to Microsoft's work with Broadcom on the low cost HD-DVD reference design but instead working on a reference design for the high-end market. I ultimately see this as the way forward for companies like Arcam and Naim to be able to release HD-DVD products without incurring huge R&D costs.


The HD-DVD Promotion group celebrated the winning of the format wars by 2:1 in 2006 by announcing that at least 300 titles will be released in 2007 from 40+ studios. See the following list for some of the up and coming titles. Expect release dates and other titles to be added over the next few days/weeks and throughout the year. http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/list/list.pdf


The HD-DVD Promotion group also announced that it expects a minimum of 1.8 million HD-DVD players to be sold by the end of 2007 and a 40 fold increase in disc sales.


The porn industry which always has a large presence at CES has been very vocal about an apparent snub from Blu-Ray. Some have complained that disc replication costs are an issue, others have said that Blu-Ray replication companies have simply refused to allow pornographic production on Blu-Ray. Either way the message from CES is clear, the porn industry has gone HD-DVD exclusive. The 1st few movies are available now. Knowing how prolific the porn industry can be at producing films, I can see the number of films available on HD-DVD to grow very quickly!

 

[fa8362]

[email protected] fps isn't judder free. 24fps has judder.

 

[Rob Zuber]

This reminds me of that hilarious "Amir interview" thread he created last year, where he said hardware companies were "holding all sorts of talks." That's so exciting! This year's press release should say, "Hardware Companies STILL holding all sorts of talks."

 

[JeffY]



Quote:
Originally Posted by fa8362 /forum/post/0


[email protected] fps isn't judder free. 24fps has judder.

That depends on the spead of the camera, it can look butter smooth.

 

[rlsmith]

To the OP: I think you have given a good summary of the positives.


Personally, I would drop the Meridian paragraph, given the entire scenario of Meridian's involvement. I don't think it adds a lot to say this.

 

[Grubert]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/0


The HD-DVD Promotion group celebrated the winning of the format wars by 2:1 in 2006 [...]

Hah. How would they celebrate that when they didn't release that data?


One forum member (me) had to work it out from figures released by Warner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/0


Toshiba have announced a mid-range HD-DVD player called HD-A20, supporting HDMI 1.3 and 1080p. The player is expected to support true 1080P @ 24 fps, allowing judder free playback.

Robert Zohn has just denied this

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer /forum/post/0


I do not expect 1080p 24 Hz on the A20.

 

[Mr.D]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/0


That depends on the spead of the camera, it can look butter smooth.

shutter angle , "shutter speed " or the actual capture duration is fixed on a film camera( assuming you are doing normal 24fps rather than hispeed or slowmo) so exposure is controlled by varying the size of the open portion on a circular shutter spinning in front of the film gate anything less than about 120 degree shutter angle and you start to increase the likelihood of strobing on fastish movement ( see Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator ) but as Jeffy says nominal shutter angles usually give perceptually smooth movement. ( the motionblur is what makes it look smooth)


On really garbage cameras you sometimes see a reflection of the spinning shutter in the image ( really bad student films mainly).

 

[Mark0]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert /forum/post/0


Hah. How would they celebrate that when they didn't release that data?


One forum member (me) had to work it out from figures released by Warner.



Robert Zohn has just denied this

Yeah, I don't get it either.

Didn't Fox say blu-ray outsold HD DVD in December???

By the looks of numbers on Amazon that seems like a bit of a stretch.

As for the 2:1 number, I'd say it's probably closer to 3:1 or even higher seeing how HD DVD outsold blu-ray by 7:1 according to Blu-ray.

 

[Vern Dias]



Quote:
Didn't Fox say blu-ray outsold HD DVD in December???

No, Fox said BD DISCS outsold HD DVD Movies. Typically misleading statements that permeated the CES fro the BD community, since DISCS Movies .


Vern

 

[Daez Nutz]



Quote:
Originally Posted by fa8362 /forum/post/0


[email protected] fps isn't judder free. 24fps has judder.

AFAIK, the judder referred to here is the stuttered motion caused by 3:2 pulldown. 24fps fed to a display that can refresh at a multiple of 24 (eg, 72Hz, 96Hz) should be able to display every frame for the same amount of time (~1/24 of a second), eliminating 3:2 judder and more closely replicating the look of film.

 

[Big J]



Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY /forum/post/0


Microsoft are working with Broadcom to develop a low cost solution to replace the Dual Core processor found in the current Toshiba HD-DVD players. This will enable HD-DVD CE companies to develop simpler and cheaper players. Several Chinese manufacturers are on hand to manufacture players based on the new design. We should expect to see players in Q2/Q3 this year. Prices of the new players are unknown, however sub £200 might well be a possibility. If they can start to compete with regular upscaling DVD players then competition from Blu-Ray might become irrelevant as people can simply replace ageing DVD players.


Toshiba have announced a mid-range HD-DVD player called HD-A20, supporting HDMI 1.3 and 1080p. The player is expected to support true 1080P @ 24 fps, allowing judder free playback. The retail price has been set at $599. A European model has also been announced called the HD-E1P, both are expected in spring 2007.


Onkyo has thrown it's hat in the format wars by declaring that it will make an HD-DVD player to be released some time in 2007. Initially the player will only be available in North America, however Onkyo have plans for the International market at a later stage.


Meridian have announced membership of the HD-DVD Promotion group and are working with Microsoft to develop high-end HD-DVD player designs. I see this as being similar to Microsoft's work with Broadcom on the low cost HD-DVD reference design but instead working on a reference design for the high-end market. I ultimately see this as the way forward for companies like Arcam and Naim to be able to release HD-DVD products without incurring huge R&D costs.


The HD-DVD Promotion group celebrated the winning of the format wars by 2:1 in 2006 by announcing that at least 300 titles will be released in 2007 from 40+ studios. See the following list for some of the up and coming titles. Expect release dates and other titles to be added over the next few days/weeks and throughout the year. http://www.hddvdprg.com/eng/list/list.pdf


The HD-DVD Promotion group also announced that it expects a minimum of 1.8 million HD-DVD players to be sold by the end of 2007 and a 40 fold increase in disc sales.


The porn industry which always has a large presence at CES has been very vocal about an apparent snub from Blu-Ray. Some have complained that disc replication costs are an issue, others have said that Blu-Ray replication companies have simply refused to allow pornographic production on Blu-Ray. Either way the message from CES is clear, the porn industry has gone HD-DVD exclusive. The 1st few movies are available now. Knowing how prolific the porn industry can be at producing films, I can see the number of films available on HD-DVD to grow very quickly!

Sorry, I read and reread the post, and even responded to it. The basic gist is:
Don't worry your pretty little head, everthing is under control.


In December, they said,"wait until CES, there will be some announcements, and you'll be pleasantly surprised". Needlessly to say, the surprise wasn't pleasant.

Now its" there's lots of info showing HD DVD is doing great, we just can't give it to you".

Where are the Titles?

J

 

[Stewed]

Can someone define "judder" for this newb?


Is that like when I'm watching one of those terrible TNT-HD upconverted movies and the camera pans lateraly in a scene and hard lines (such in buildings) tend to "jump" along with the lateral movement?


I just bought the 360's hddvd player and I'm happy to see the number of movies coming out this year. The porn thing is a bonus I suppose!


Now if only my Hollywood Video didn't cary twice as many blueray movies over HD DVD...

 

[Daez Nutz]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewed /forum/post/0


Can someone define "judder" for this newb?


Is that like when I'm watching one of those terrible TNT-HD upconverted movies and the camera pans lateraly in a scene and hard lines (such in buildings) tend to "jump" along with the lateral movement?

To put it simply, in the context of today's fixed pixel 60Hz displays (which I believe is the most common spec), material filmed at 24 frames per second physically cannot be properly displayed on a TV that refreshes 60 times a second. (Yes I know it there is more to it, but I'm summarizing.) I'm sure anyone will agree that you cannot divide 60 by 24 and get a whole integer, so the de facto solution is to display some frames 3 times, and others twice (hence 3:2 pulldown). The problem is, when you show some frames longer than others, the resultant motion is no longer what the original source material intended. Hence, the "judder." Yes, it is very apparent in slow pans. It varies from person to person, but I am quite sensitive to it. For now, though, realistically, it's a necessary evil. Eventually, displays that are capable of refreshing at a multiple of 24 times a second should eliminate the problem.

 

[fa8362]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daez Nutz /forum/post/0


To put it simply, in the context of today's fixed pixel 60Hz displays (which I believe is the most common spec), material filmed at 24 frames per second physically cannot be properly displayed on a TV that refreshes 60 times a second. (Yes I know it there is more to it, but I'm summarizing.) I'm sure anyone will agree that you cannot divide 60 by 24 and get a whole integer, so the de facto solution is to display some frames 3 times, and others twice (hence 3:2 pulldown). The problem is, when you show some frames longer than others, the resultant motion is no longer what the original source material intended. Hence, the "judder." Yes, it is very apparent in slow pans. It varies from person to person, but I am quite sensitive to it. For now, though, realistically, it's a necessary evil. Eventually, displays that are capable of refreshing at a multiple of 24 times a second should eliminate the problem.

That will eliminate the conversion problem, but film shot at 24 fps can still have judder if there's too much motion between frames (often the case).

 

[Daez Nutz]



Quote:
Originally Posted by fa8362 /forum/post/0


That will eliminate the conversion problem, but film shot at 24 fps can still have judder if there's too much motion between frames (often the case).

Very true, but said judder would also exist in the original source material. 3:2 introduces more stuttering that wasn't present in the film version, and I think we could all do without further degradation of our movies.


Another point to consider is that people have become so accustomed to the look of 24fps that digitally produced images at a higher framerate (eg, 60fps) tend to look somewhat surreal and awry--even though they are technically superior. Not that I'm arguing one way or the other, but it's interesting to note if nothing else.

 

[Stewed]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daez Nutz /forum/post/0


To put it simply, in the context of today's fixed pixel 60Hz displays ....

Thank you so much for that. That's good, now I now that I'm not crazy and also that my tv isn't "broken", heh

 

[Daez Nutz]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewed /forum/post/0


Thank you so much for that. That's good, now I now that I'm not crazy and also that my tv isn't "broken", heh

You're very welcome. Nothing wrong with your TV. Or your eyes, for that matter.

 

[Vern Dias]



Quote:
judder would also exist in the original source material.

Judder is a term used specifically to describe the effect of showing some frames for a longer period than others.


Film does not suffer from judder, although excessively fast pans or motion will result in blurring of the image. However, this is not what we mean when we use the term judder.


Vern

 

[Daez Nutz]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias /forum/post/0


Judder is a term used specifically to describe the effect of showing some frames for a longer period than others.


Film does not suffer from judder, although excessively fast pans or motion will result in blurring of the image. However, this is not what we mean when we use the term judder.


Vern

Tell it to the other guy, I've been trying to discuss judder in the context of 3:2 pulldown this entire thread.

 

[ottscay]

It's obvious who you support, but it's not a bad summary of the positives for HD DVD at CES. Onkyo is indeed good news, although the total lack of details (except that it will be N.A. only and "sometime in 2007") is not terribly promising.


The Microsoft/Broadcom announcement is also good, but also reinforces that no one else is ready for an imminent launch of a non-Toshiba brand player...and suggests that the margins are still razor-thin on current models, if existent at all.


The Meridian thing is for sure good in the long run, but also has an embarassing side considering its demonstration that the HD DVD guys are just as happy to release misleading PR as the BDA is.


In a format war where HD DVD was out (functionally, at least) for twice as long, and had significantly more titels out for most of the year, 2:1 is not very good, especially since the sales gap was either closed or outright lost in the last month. I presume that's why Toshiba did not announc any numbers, because their lead is now gone, and they'll have to work much harder to regain the momentum this year.


The fact that almost no exclusive movies were announced for HD DVD, and that Warner pledged format parity in their releases is a huge blow to the format, and far overshadows the BS "300 movies to come" with no useful details as all.


Announcing that they expect 1.8 million players to sell this year is like Fox announcing they think that BD sales will triple HD DVD sales in Q1 2007. Perhaps worse given how far from the projected 300,000 HD DVD players they were this year (they barely got half, and most of those were addons!). Of course if they can actually do that it'll be phenominal news for the format, and ensure (at at the least) that the format war will last a long time.


The porn industry news is some of the best news or HD DVD, and this is probably the BDA's worse blunder of CES. But perhaps the best news for HD DVD is that they are still here and in the game at CES 2007. The loss-leader A/XA-1 and faster time to market were leveraged well by Toshiba, and MS is clearly in it to win (or, rather, to make sure that BD loses).


Of course, in proportion to what was promised/expected CES was a disaster. Not a single non-Toshiba standalone was announced with a date, and despite lots of hinting, there is no product specs for any player from any other CE manufacturer. Worse, not only where there no defections from the BDA studios, but BD announce a far stronger list of exclusive tites, and Universal was deafeningly silent, as if stunned by the Q4 performance of the competing format.


I don't know the reason for Universal's behavior, or why there are still no products from other hardware vendors that will be released soon, but despite the PRs this can only be seen as a dismal CES. Sorry.