[Hawkmarket]

Or so I’ve heard 10x over by now. I’m 100% movies and will be upgrading soon for atmos. Does this same principle hold true using a Marantz preamp with a separate power supply (Monolith 11 Channel) or does that change the sonic properties vs. using a Marantz AVR with no external amps. I’ve heard it said they all have their own distinct sound so I wasn’t sure if that still holds true in the world of pre-amp.

 

[nathan_h]

I’m short, it isn’t really true of the AVRs (I've had both) and I would be surprised if it is true of the pre-pro (I've only had other brands of pre-pros).

But yes, both companies are under the same company and share lots of tech and resources and yet need a way to market to different consumers so they lean into different ways of talking about how great their product is, and lots of people believe they are different.

I'll bet if this topic gets some attention, you'll have a dozen people making statements about which one is better for some particular thing, and some models measure a little differently in the inaudible spectrum. But between those two I would choose the one with the features I need and move on.

 

[dj7675]

Or so I’ve heard 10x over by now. I’m 100% movies and will be upgrading soon for atmos. Does this same principle hold true using a Marantz preamp with a separate power supply (Monolith 11 Channel) or does that change the sonic properties vs. using a Marantz AVR with no external amps. I’ve heard it said they all have their own distinct sound so I wasn’t sure if that still holds true in the world of pre-amp.

Denon will measure better/more accurate on bench tests (actually quite a bit better). I would always opt for Denon over Marantz for both movies and music. My believe that this Denon is better for movies and Marantz for music comes from 2 things that feed each other...
1-Marantz has spent a lot on positioning/differentiating their product from their sister brand Denon. Take a look at their website, there is a lot info on tuning their sound etc.
2-People repeat this often as if it is true and a fact, when it fact it is not that I know of. I don’t know of any double blind tests that have even shown that anyone can tell them apart or which is preferred. Any double blind level matched tests have anyone seen?
While the Denon’s bench tests much better, the Marantz units may not be audibly enough different for most people in most circumstances to even hear the difference. I would would go for a Denon receiver vs a Marantz pre/pro and either use it in full preamp mode, or just get external amplification for the most important channels. Just my 2 cents!

 

[pbz06]

A good AVR or processor is a good AVR or processor. No offense to anyone, but all those adjectives are marketing speak or just "spoken into existence". The AVR has no idea what signal its playing whether it's a movie or music...any sound characteristics would be based on speakers, settings, room etc. I've never seen any blind test where anyone can tell a difference.

 

[eljaycanuck]

..................

 

[TheoN]

Denon and Marantz have the same parent company (Sound United). However they are separate companies. While they have the opportunity to share resources, the two brands have final voicing that is done by different individuals.

 

[guitarjim]

Look for the number of channels you need. Then, you can look for the number of features you want, including room correction/equalization. Then, buy what is available if you want one now. If you are a gamer, wait until the known issue is resolved later this year. My guess is if you want 7+ channels, you will be happy with whatever you buy.

 

[poopiehead]

I haven't compared them in my HT so I cannot comment on a direct comparison. My sibling likes Denon for his various builds at home/vacation places. I use Marantz in 2 TV areas in my home.

I've been more of a hard core audio guy and didn't choose Marantz for the audio. It was just the deal I found at the time and for my brother it was the same reason he standardized on Denon.

In my exploration of HT/Audio, I've tried various receivers from Yamaha, Marantz, NAD and Pioneer. I've even tried a purer play. Using the Oppo DVD player to decode with 5.1 analogue out to a multichannel analogue preamp (very rare piece) and multi channel amp.

To me decoding is decoding but the difference in all the gear I've sampled is the ability to handle the ANALOGUE domain and my Oppo set up was just brilliant. A cable mess but well worth the experiment. I moved onto NAD (WAF) and that retained a lot of the good qualities. When I wanted Atmos I picked up a Marantz and the sound was "pretty good". Not as neutral over the NAD but the Atmos surround was a step up over the NAD and that was a bigger difference for my needs.

When it comes to listening to music, that slight warmer colouration with the Marantz is welcome actually since I don't really critical listen with my HT set ups. Anything to calm streaming harsh music or modern pop. I leave music to my dedicated 2 channel room. Saying that, my multichannel amps dictates the sound more and the speakers I choose. If Marantz is warming over the HT soundtrack, I'm okay with that.

 

[bgm1911]

I've got Marantz separates (two different 5.1 ch preamps) that I bought for mostly HT work. I'm wanting to get into 2 channel equipment because the Marantz pre AV7705 is so lacking with music. What I mean by lacking is the music is thin, little detail with poor soundstage. What proved to me that the Marantz needs to go is swapping in three vintage analog receivers and just yesterday, auditioning 2 channel separates from Atoll and Rogue audio.

 

[Andy922]

I've had both Denon and marantz. They sound the same

 

[tokerblue]

I've had both Denon and marantz. They sound the same

That's been my experience as well. They sound the same to me.

 

[Krobar]

That's been my experience as well. They sound the same to me.

I tend to find Marantz sounds smoother / duller (Depends on your POV)

Actual measurement of both brands has shown Marantz roll off treble from about 12Khz and are about 3dB down by 20khz; Denon is flat.
Marantz also use slow linear phase filters which increase noise but sound better to some people.

Ultimately the Denons are more accurate but which you prefer will be down to personal taste and component matching.

 

[tokerblue]

I tend to find Marantz sounds smoother / duller (Depends on your POV)

Actual measurement of both brands has shown Marantz roll off treble from about 12Khz and are about 3dB down by 20khz; Denon is flat.
Marantz also use slow linear phase filters which increase noise but sound better to some people.

Ultimately the Denons are more accurate but which you prefer will be down to personal taste and component matching.

I'm sure there's a technical difference since they're separate brands, but I couldn't tell the difference when I had a Marantz receiver and upgraded to a Denon receiver. The differences I noticed were ones from newer Audyssey, digital connection for SACD, etc.

 

[psyduck103]

Say what you may, my Marantz 7702mk2 on music sounds like it died last week. It just sounds lifeless. That's why I layer my systems. The main left and right stereo go through a old Krell KRC and this baby will give you goose bumps. The video L&R come from the prepro to an aux input on the Krell. Am using old Paradigm S8v1 with Adcom 565 monoblocks. I have had this stereo equipment(electronic) for 30 and the speakers for 12 years.

 

[bigguyca]

Denon and Marantz have the same parent company (Sound United). However they are separate companies. While they have the opportunity to share resources, the two brands have final voicing that is done by different individuals.

Parent Company

The parent company of Sound United is Charlesbank Capital Partners. A private equity fund.

Charlesbank | building middle-market industry leaders

Note that a pizza chain and taco shop are in the same group. Charlesbank owns about 95 companies. Final tuning of these companies is likely to extract maximum cash and often to prepare them for sale.

Voicing???

Do you actually believe this voicing claim, that is, some guy sits in a chair and swaps out surface mount resistors? Do you actually believe a private equity fund with a bottom-line focus, pays two guys to sit around and make some sort of minor changes.

The circuit and DAC filter differences between Marantz and Denon have been the same for years. Marantz has the HDAM's that likely add noise and distortion, and non-standard DAC reconstruction filters with no user option to change the filters. What do these "Voicing" guys do? Many of the circuits, circuit boards and components are identical between Denon and Marantz products.

An Improvement at Marantz

This year there has been one major positive change at Marantz. Marantz appears to have added active current sources to the HDAM's in the AV8015. A look at the circuit board and measurements in Audioholics of the AV8015 indicate that this is the case. While current sources may not mean anything to most people, they are a key to the actual level of performance achieved by the HDAM's. The HDAM's in all of Marantz's AVR's and AVP's (including the AV8805) use resistor based current sources. The AV8015 now being an exception. It would be really nice if the AV8805 had better HDAM's, but this doesn't appear to be in the plans. This will likely make the AV8805(A) the last unit to be fitted with this improvement. It will be good when the AV8015 is measured at ASR to verify the actual level of improvement in Amir's standard measurement setup.

The resistor-based current sources are likely the main reason for the worse measured performance of Marantz vs. Denon preouts in ASR. The active current sources require four added transistors at a few cents per transistor per HDAM buffer circuit. This HDAM buffer circuit is two HDAM's and a voltage gain stage to provide gain for feedback. Hopefully these much improved HDAM circuits will spread to other Marantz units over the years.

Now if Marantz would provide a choice of DAC filters in their AVR's and AVP's, the other major complaint concerning Marantz upper level AVR's and AVP's would be addressed. The actual DAC IC's in the Marantz products have these filters already in place. Only putting a different value in a register on the DAC IC, and a slight change in the Marantz setup menu structure would be required to allow the owner to actually choose the filter used. Not allowing a choice of filters, when the filter chosen by Marantz is non-standard, seems pure arrogance.

 

[dj7675]

Parent Company

The parent company of Sound United is Charlesbank Capital Partners. A private equity fund.

Charlesbank | building middle-market industry leaders

Note that a pizza chain and taco shop are in the same group. Charlesbank owns about 95 companies. Final tuning of these companies is likely to extract maximum cash and often to prepare them for sale.

Voicing???

Do you actually believe this voicing claim, that is, some guy sits in a chair and swaps out surface mount resistors? Do you actually believe a private equity fund with a bottom-line focus, pays two guys to sit around and make some sort of minor changes.

The circuit and DAC filter differences between Marantz and Denon have been the same for years. Marantz has the HDAM's that likely add noise and distortion, and non-standard DAC reconstruction filters with no user option to change the filters. What do these "Voicing" guys do? Many of the circuits, circuit boards and components are identical between Denon and Marantz products.

An Improvement at Marantz

This year there has been one major positive change at Marantz. Marantz appears to have added active current sources to the HDAM's in the AV8015. A look at the circuit board and measurements in Audioholics of the AV8015 indicate that this is the case. While current sources may not mean anything to most people, they are a key to the actual level of performance achieved by the HDAM's. The HDAM's in all of Marantz's AVR's and AVP's (including the AV8805) use resistor based current sources. The AV8015 now being an exception. It would be really nice if the AV8805 had better HDAM's, but this doesn't appear to be in the plans. This will likely make the AV8805(A) the last unit to be fitted with this improvement. It will be good when the AV8015 is measured at ASR to verify the actual level of improvement in Amir's standard measurement setup.

The resistor-based current sources are likely the main reason for the worse measured performance of Marantz vs. Denon preouts in ASR. The active current sources require four added transistors at a few cents per transistor per HDAM buffer circuit. This HDAM buffer circuit is two HDAM's and a voltage gain stage to provide gain for feedback. Hopefully these much improved HDAM circuits will spread to other Marantz units over the years.

Now if Marantz would provide a choice of DAC filters in their AVR's and AVP's, the other major complaint concerning Marantz upper level AVR's and AVP's would be addressed. The actual DAC IC's in the Marantz products have these filters already in place. Only putting a different value in a register on the DAC IC, and a slight change in the Marantz setup menu structure would be required to allow the owner to actually choose the filter used. Not allowing a choice of filters, when the filter chosen by Marantz is non-standard, seems pure arrogance.

Thanks for that explanation.

 

[TheoN]

I’ve spoken directly with the senior Denon engineers. Believe what you will.

 

[Maddmaster]

bigguyca, great detailed info. I too at times get disappointed with 2 channel from my AV8805. It does sound thin to me also. I really think it has to do with all the settings Audyssey changes during setup. Like you I have and old 2 channel setup that seems to blow anything new away. A Carver C1 preamp and M500tmkII or Carver M1.0tmkII. The sound stage just comes to life even without an EQ or Sub. It's probably because we hear all the raw signals without any processing is my guess. I do enjoy a lot of music from the 8805 using Auro 3D though. Sound stage is open and comes to life.

As far as differences in Marantz vs Denon, sound quality in like units you'll never hear a difference. It's more about features. He should just pick whichever features he needs regardless of which brand.

 

[truwarrior22]

bigguyca, great detailed info. I too at times get disappointed with 2 channel from my AV8805. It does sound thin to me also. I really think it has to do with all the settings Audyssey changes during setup. Like you I have and old 2 channel setup that seems to blow anything new away. A Carver C1 preamp and M500tmkII or Carver M1.0tmkII. The sound stage just comes to life even without an EQ or Sub. It's probably because we hear all the raw signals without any processing is my guess. I do enjoy a lot of music from the 8805 using Auro 3D though. Sound stage is open and comes to life.

As far as differences in Marantz vs Denon, sound quality in like units you'll never hear a difference. It's more about features. He should just pick whichever features he needs regardless of which brand.

They do sound different. I like certain aspects from each. Depending on what you’re listening to it maybe more or less noticeable. I think the Marantz has a better balance, but some might find the Denon sounds “better”.

 

[Maddmaster]

They do sound different. I like certain aspects from each. Depending on what you’re listening to it maybe more or less noticeable. I think the Marantz has a better balance, but some might find the Denon sounds “better”.

Good to know. Maybe I'll try Denon my next upgrade. I prefer better music sound quality over movies.