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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
so i'm trying to decide between these two tower speakers:


Martin Logan Source

Definitive Mythos STS Supertower


and these two center speakers:


Martin Logan Matinee

Definitive 3-Way Center channel with subwoofer


The problem lies in the fact that I dont have access to the STS towers and the Matinee so I have no idea how to compare. They'll be used for all around usage I guess. I also know that the electrostatic does cause the MLs to be much more directional. Im just trying to see which ones would sound better and why.
 

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xanavi -


The ML's are a wonderfully transparent speaker, but as you mentioned, the ML's are very directional, so if you aren't in the sweet spot, all you hear is the closest speaker. Which is fine if you are the only one listening. But there's another problem with small ESL panels (the panel in the Source is considered small), they dynamically compress at levels not really suitable for HT, well for action flicks anyway. Small ESLs are fine for low to moderate volumes and minimalist recordings, but not things like rock at higher volumes. The sound becomes congested and harsh. To get decent dynamics from and ESL, you need to go with a big panel. The reason: that thin piece of film only moves a small, small fraction of an inch to produce sound. Since it has so little excursion, the only way to get decent output is to compensate with surface area.


The DefTechs are a better fit for a dual purpose system, assuming you like the Def Tech sound...
 

· The Village Idiot
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Unless you have a better than average AVR or amp to drive the Martin Logans you might want to cross them off your short list.


And you could not have picked two speakers with less in common it would seem. The ML go down to 73hz - the Def Techs down to 16hz according to DT website.


For just music the MLs would be great - as you noted already they are very directional - for an all around speaker I'd pick the DTs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
hmm interesting. yeah i figured the source wouldnt be as good cause they seemed to be on the lower end for ML. Say I could get the purity instead? what would you suggest? i realize they're really different speakers but ive got my dad wanting the deftechs and my mom wanting the MLs. so i'm conflicted.


i dont have an amp currently but i am using a pioneer elite VSX-94TXH AVR. its currently powering polk audio LSi15. i really like the pair. which would sound closest to those?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanavi1130 /forum/post/16884586


so i'm trying to decide between these two tower speakers:


Martin Logan Source

Definitive Mythos STS Supertower


and these two center speakers:


Martin Logan Matinee

Definitive 3-Way Center channel with subwoofer


The problem lies in the fact that I dont have access to the STS towers and the Matinee so I have no idea how to compare. They'll be used for all around usage I guess. I also know that the electrostatic does cause the MLs to be much more directional. Im just trying to see which ones would sound better and why.

Hi,

I use all ML speaker system,the Source goes down to 43hz and it depends on % music listening/HT and quality of electronics, amp must be good(1.6ohms at 20kz) and size of room and the use of a high quality sub(or 2) is needed(all systems need this too).

ML speakers are very revealing of upstream electronics amps are stressed must use a power amp,avr will not cut it and as has been said ,small panels not for very loud levels over 105db,most people listen to HT at -10db from ref so will be ok,as long as you don,t want rock concert levels.With music and movies they can be wonderful and are less efficient than most conventional speakers(87db/watt to 89db/watt or less) just need bigger amps

Regards victor.

MY SYSTEM.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136036
 

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Personally, I wouldn't go ML ESL unless you can get the Spire, which are $8995 / pr. I owned the ML Aeon i's, which have the same size panel as the Vantage ($5700 / pr) and they were great for jazz and vocal recordings, but not very good for rock or action movies.


You also need to make sure that you have at least three feet of open space behind the speaker because the panel produces sound from the back as well as the front.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge /forum/post/16885287


Personally, I wouldn't go ML ESL unless you can get the Spire, which are $8995 / pr. I owned the ML Aeon i's, which have the same size panel as the Vantage ($5700 / pr) and they were great for jazz and vocal recordings, but not very good for rock or action movies.


You also need to make sure that you have at least three feet of open space behind the speaker because the panel produces sound from the back as well as the front.

Good point need room but with treatments behind can be used closer than recommended.Victor.
 

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dump the ML's or Def Tech.


Listen to the Magnepan's. If you are going to spend so much, try the Magnepan 1.6.

Only some $1800/pair. You dont need a sub for music. You could add a sub for movies. I have the MG12s and I dont use a sub for music. The center channel CC3 is $995. The maggies are not directional. CC3 is curved so no need to sit in the middle. One excuse people always give is that the maggies need a lot of space. Well unless you are putting them in a den, you should be fine. if someone is going to spend several thousand dollars they are not going to live in a studio apartment with no space :)


Why pay a lot of money if you can get the maggies for less and these maggies

sound like $10k speakers. You can put the extra cash to get separates.

I picked up a used RB-1080 in great shape for $600 and Anthem AVM20 V2.21 in

great shape for $585, both from Audiogon. For 2ch music they are great.
 

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BTW Def Tech's specs are all bogus. It is ridiculous that even for

satellites like the promonitors they would put the lows as some 25Hz.

They would put a passive radiator in their boxy bookshelfs and put the specs

as 20Hz. Unless they have a powered sub there is no way they can get that low.


Dump the boxy speakers. They are always boomy. You dont get that boominess with the planar speakers like the Magnepans. You would always have some troublesome frequency but that is the problem of the room and not due to the speaker enclosure.
 

· The Village Idiot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/16885719


BTW Def Tech's specs are all bogus. It is ridiculous that even for

satellites like the promonitors they would put the lows as some 25Hz.

They would put a passive radiator in their boxy bookshelfs and put the specs

as 20Hz. Unless they have a powered sub there is no way they can get that low.


Dump the boxy speakers. They are always boomy. You dont get that boominess with the planar speakers like the Magnepans. You would always have some troublesome frequency but that is the problem of the room and not due to the speaker enclosure.

Each Supertower has a 300 watt sub built in.

I've been the route of having built in subs in a tower - never again. The problems associated with where to put them to sound good does not jive with where the rest of the speaker sounds best for imaging.


By 'boxy' speakers I presume you mean ported? I'd agree on that. I now have a dual 8" sealed tower design - Emo 8.3s. Very nice sounding speaker - nice tight bass - clear precise highs and killer mid range. And I use a large sub.


Planars are great sounding but off axis they don't image well. IMO they are best suited for an individual's setup.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/16886192


Each Supertower has a 300 watt sub built in.

I've been the route of having built in subs in a tower - never again. The problems associated with where to put them to sound good does not jive with where the rest of the speaker sounds best for imaging.


By 'boxy' speakers I presume you mean ported? I'd agree on that. I now have a dual 8" sealed tower design - Emo 8.3s. Very nice sounding speaker - nice tight bass - clear precise highs and killer mid range. And I use a large sub.


Planars are great sounding but off axis they don't image well. IMO they are best suited for an individual's setup.

what do you mean by they dont image well off axis? Is that a general comment read from some magazine or in particular about MG12's or Mg16's based on your listening experience.


A 2ch system is supposed to be for 1 listener as the center seat is the best location. Also I dont have the speakers facing directly my ears. They are always off-axis to my ears and I dont have any issues with the imaging.

In fact when I watch news etc with the 2 MG12s in phantom mode the voice is dead centered.


Also a major advantage of planar speakers IMO is their light weight. I dont have to worry about hauling a 60lb boxy speaker. I can just lift my MG12 without any effort. How much does the Def Tech super tower weigh? Like 100 lbs each?


I have heard Def Tecs and they are really over priced compared to their performance. IMO the promonitors are the only onces that do justice for their price. Rest are all ridiculously expensive and there are many other brands (box type) that are cheaper and sound better. Similarly ML's are also overpriced planars. Magepan would be a much better alternative if one is looking for planar/quasi ribbon type speakers.


The OP should give the Magnepans a listen before dropping $5k or 6K on the ML's
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/16887127


what do you mean by they dont image well off axis? Is that a general comment read from some magazine or in particular about MG12's or Mg16's based on your listening experience.


A 2ch system is supposed to be for 1 listener as the center seat is the best location. Also I dont have the speakers facing directly my ears. They are always off-axis to my ears and I dont have any issues with the imaging.

In fact when I watch news etc with the 2 MG12s in phantom mode the voice is dead centered.


Also a major advantage of planar speakers IMO is their light weight. I dont have to worry about hauling a 60lb boxy speaker. I can just lift my MG12 without any effort. How much does the Def Tech super tower weigh? Like 100 lbs each?

My 7001's weigh well over 100lbs each.

I carefully moved them around untill I got the soundstage locked in then spiked them in place. Unless you consantly move your speakers around, I don't see weight as being an issue.
 

· The Village Idiot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/16887127


what do you mean by they dont image well off axis? Is that a general comment read from some magazine or in particular about MG12's or Mg16's based on your listening experience.


A 2ch system is supposed to be for 1 listener as the center seat is the best location. Also I dont have the speakers facing directly my ears. They are always off-axis to my ears and I dont have any issues with the imaging.

In fact when I watch news etc with the 2 MG12s in phantom mode the voice is dead centered.


Also a major advantage of planar speakers IMO is their light weight. I dont have to worry about hauling a 60lb boxy speaker. I can just lift my MG12 without any effort. How much does the Def Tech super tower weigh? Like 100 lbs each?


I have heard Def Tecs and they are really over priced compared to their performance. IMO the promonitors are the only onces that do justice for their price. Rest are all ridiculously expensive and there are many other brands (box type) that are cheaper and sound better. Similarly ML's are also overpriced planars. Magepan would be a much better alternative if one is looking for planar/quasi ribbon type speakers.

I've heard planar speakers before. Off axis they don't image very well IMO. Based not just on my experience but many others agree with this observation as well. They sound great set up correctly. Most casual buyers won't bother - and thats the rub with them. I stated my opinion - I don't state opinion as fact.


The OP stated the new speakers will be used for general use IIRC which I would presume includes home theater use. I wouldn't recommend them for HT use.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 /forum/post/16887201


I've heard planar speakers before. Off axis they don't image very well IMO. Based not just on my experience but many others agree with this observation as well. They sound great set up correctly. Most casual buyers won't bother - and thats the rub with them. I stated my opinion - I don't state opinion as fact.


The OP stated the new speakers will be used for general use IIRC which I would presume includes home theater use. I wouldn't recommend them for HT use.

I still dont understand what you mean by they dont image well off axis.

Anyway it is your opinion not a fact to me unless I experience the same.


I use the Magnepans for both movies and music and they are great for both.

The OP should try listening to the Magnepans then decide. The Magnepan dealer at my place was great. He let me borrow all of them.
 

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what I hear from my Magnepan planar speakers is pretty much what is said below.

Magnepan speakers also radiate sound both from the front and rear like mentioned

below. Give them a listen and then decide. There is no better way to buy a speaker

than listening to it for several hours in your room. Not all dealers would let you

borrow the speaker for home auditioning.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Polar Response Patterns

Sound radiates from a speaker meaning that it moves out from a starting point into a given space. Direct radiating speakers project sound in a single direction, and are referred to as "unipolar." Conventional speakers are unipolar.


The NlightN is a "dipolar speaker" that radiates sound from the front and rear of the panel, out of phase. Dipole speakers provide a very open, enveloping soundstage without allowing you to pinpoint the location of the speakers themselves.


With sound waves coming from both the front and rear of a speaker, the sound waves are not all directed at the listening position. Some of the waves are reflected off walls and other room boundaries before reaching the listener. The resulting sound is spacious creating a wide soundstage and a larger sweet spot than direct radiating designs. The sound is more diffuse or spread out through the listening area.


Dipolar speakers generate sound to the front and rear with very little information emanating to the sides of the speaker. The sound waves reflect off walls, ceilings, and objects in the room before reaching the listener. The resulting sound field is broad and enveloping, and the speakers themselves are very difficult to localize or find by ear.


Surround Sound Applications

The revolutionary NlightN Flat Panel Speakers are perfect for multi-media use and enhance the surround sound experience by producing a larger stereo "sweet spot." The speakers have mounting holes and can be hung on the wall, like a picture frame, as the perfect audio complement for a plasma display television.


Flat Panel Speakers are perfect for home theatre, since the inherently diffuse nature of their sound radiation assures the required surround-channel diffusion. Listeners are not conscious of the surround speakers as distinct entities. Because of their wide directivity, NlightN speakers can be placed around a room in a much more flexible way. This is particularly valuable given the growing acceptance of DVD technology with its associated 5.1 audio systems.


Since the NlightN speakers have a flatter power output across the entire frequency spectrum and produce a more uniform radiation pattern (where the off-axis sound is more similar to that of the on-axis sound), a careful alignment of speakers is no longer necessary.


In a conventional surround-sound speaker system, there is a specific focal stereo "sweet spot" that is created by the placement of the front, rear, center and bass channels. Anyone who sits out of the stereo "sweet spot" will not receive the true surround sound image. The sound will be dominated by a left, right, or the speaker nearest to the individual.


Flat panel speakers create a diffuse sound field, which eliminates the effects of a dominant sounding speaker. It is more difficult to perceive sounds from a specific direction or location. The result is a much-improved home theater presentation with fewer stereo "sweet spot."
 

· The Village Idiot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi /forum/post/16887369


I still dont understand what you mean by they dont image well off axis.

Anyway it is your opinion not a fact to me unless I experience the same.


I use the Magnepans for both movies and music and they are great for both.

The OP should try listening to the Magnepans then decide. The Magnepan dealer at my place was great. He let me borrow all of them.

I've never heard them so I can't pass judgment on them. Only what I've heard from listening to a couple of ML models - electrostat models. I liked them but ended up getting a more 'traditional' speaker - Emotiva ERTs. They needed to do HT and 2 channel and the ERTs do that very well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
wow i dont understand half of this stuff T__T. i have to research what you guys are saying lol.


as for price, i get them all around 50% off cause i work at best buy. thats why i'm limited to these. so for prices, im kinda like w/e.
 

· The Village Idiot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanavi1130 /forum/post/16887703


wow i dont understand half of this stuff T__T. i have to research what you guys are saying lol.


as for price, i get them all around 50% off cause i work at best buy. thats why i'm limited to these. so for prices, im kinda like w/e.

The Martin Logan is a fine speaker. However they are an electrostatic speaker and are notorious for being hard to locate for the best sound. They have a wonderful soundstage - but the listening positions are limited. Get outside of the prime listening position and the soundstage diminishes.


If your parents are willing to take the time to locate them they should buy the MLs. The MLs are a 4 ohm load and need a better than average AVR or better yet an external amp. What do they have for an AVR?

If they want something easy to place and just listen to I'd advise getting something else.


This is of course just my opinion. But there are many who share the same view.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanavi1130 /forum/post/16887703


wow i dont understand half of this stuff T__T. i have to research what you guys are saying lol.


as for price, i get them all around 50% off cause i work at best buy. thats why i'm limited to these. so for prices, im kinda like w/e.

If you don't understand something, ask questions until you do. We don't bite.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
i guess a couple of terms:

ported

planar

flat panel speaker

off-axis


from my understanding, you say the built in subs would cause too much of an issue? why is this? i thought that bass doesnt really matter where its located?


i asked my manager today about the directionality of the MLs and he was like thats definitely true but he said he has some guy coming in from another store saying that its possible to set them up where they're not so directional. is this possible? obviously my manager and i arent experts on this matter so we were curious cause we though that was the i guess "inherent flaw" with the electrostatic speakers.


ive been thinking about an amp but im trying the convince my dad the neccesity of one. ive used one before on shure headphones and the difference is astounding but he hasnt so its hard to convince him the applications of one in an HT setup.


the AVR is a Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH. idk if it helps but like i also said before, im using Polk Audio LSi15s. i was thinking of putting these in the rear and getting new towers. or is that like some big no no?


my choices are kinda limited. so im not sure about the Magnepans. i found out i can special order the ML Purity's and the DefTech Mythos ST (msrp for both is like 1799 and 1999 each respectively though its half off for me
).
 
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