AVS Forum banner

21 - 40 of 386 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by ptlurking
Tom_B,

My 51" Sony developed very mild burn-in after about 12 months of viewing (90%) with the gray bars. Its only noticeable on very light backgrounds.

Most people can't see it...but its there.

YIKES!!!


That's terrible. I was hoping new sets were much better than this. As in, if one put up with gray bars then you would get at least 3 years before seeing any burn-in. I wouldn't even consider three years to be stellar performance.


Darn ... I had a good price negotiated on a new Hitachi 51s500.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
YIKES!!!


That's terrible. I was hoping new sets were much better than this. As in, if one put up with gray bars then you would get at least 3 years before seeing any burn-in. I wouldn't even consider three years to be stellar performance.


Darn ... I had a good price negotiated on a new Hitachi 51s500.

I wouldn't let one persons bad experience ruin you for a good deal on a very good TV. It might be a case of bad luck or it might be a case of contrast not being set low enough, or perhaps something else entirely - there are many factors involved.


I definately wouldn't let that ruin you on a CRT. I'd be quite willing to bet that for every person that experienced burn in after 1 year, there are 20 who don't experience any burn in after 7 or 8 years ( of those who have their tv's calibrated right - no one on AVS would be dumb enough to leave the contrast set super high I'd imagine ).


Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
394 Posts
How common is it to have burn-in from watching too many 2.35:1 movies? I have my contrast and brightness pretty low but am still worried about it. I watch about half dvd's and half television. I always use the stretch modes for television but it seems like 90% of my dvds are 2.35:1. Should I be worried?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,299 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by david118383
How common is it to have burn-in from watching too many 2.35:1 movies? I have my contrast and brightness pretty low but am still worried about it. I watch about half dvd's and half television. I always use the stretch modes for television but it seems like 90% of my dvds are 2.35:1. Should I be worried?

The only case of 2.35:1 burn in I have heard of was at a specialty hometheater shop that was using a 2:35:1 DVD in a contiinuous loop as a demo. If your contrast is set properly and you use the 4:3 stretch mode, it is not a worry.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
Actually this issue does freeze me on buying an HD set. I really like the newest Hitachi's and Mits. Love the picture quality. But as I can't stand to watch 4:3 stretch modes & a good 60%-75% of my viewing is of 4:3, I don't have confidence that I could make it more than 6-12 months before visible burn-in appears. When I first heard of the use of gray bars, I thought they might do the trick. But no one ever guarantees that they do.


I just watched a bit of 4:3 stretch again this weekend. It was closeup of a couple kissing. The center of the screen looked pretty good - using the newest stretch modes where the center stays very close to 4:3. But as the edges are aggressively stretched, this had the effect of elongating both of their heads so that they no longer looked human. My wife, being a person who focuses their attention on the center/action, didn't even notice it. To me, the weird distorted image just jumped off of the screen at me.


I'm looking over my room to see if there is anyway of keeping my present tube 4:3 set to use for SD and using the RPTV only for HD and DVDs. But I don't think I can make both fit in a way that they would both be usable. Otherwise it's waiting for the next generation of DLP/LCD/D-ILA sets.


As to 2.35:1 burn in, it is everybit as susceptible to burning-in as 4:3. It's just that most people won't watch that much 2.35:1 to burn it. If 75% of one's use is 4:3 or 2.35:1, they have the same issue to deal with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Tom,

There are some technologies which will not have burn in:

i.e.

DLP

Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)


There are many potential causes for image burn in, but in projection this can be mainly attributed to the accuracy of the voltage applied to the display.


Roland
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,013 Posts
on 4x3 material I use the zoom on my hitachi not the stretch. i agree that the stretch is crap. the only draw back is that you lose some picture at the very edges of the original signal, but the picture stays in the right proportion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,214 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by rolypoly
Tom,

There are some technologies which will not have burn in:

i.e.

DLP

Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)

. . .


Roland

I didn't realize until after I had bought my DLP, a 50" RCA, that DLPs are not subject to the dreaded burn in problem. I bought my DLP only because I saw it standing next to an LCD HDTV on the dealer's floor and thought that its PQ was significantly better than the LCD's.


The DLP's immunity from burn in has proved to be a boon to me. The horizontal distortion caused by stretching and the apparent loss of resolution caused by zooming bother me so I am grateful that I can watch 4:3 material in native format and not have to worry about burn in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
One reason I would go for DLP is also the immunity to burn-in. I know I would take care of a CRT set because I paid for it. But I am currently living with a roommate that may not do the same. I am not saying that he won't take care of it,but, i'd hate to come home and see him playing a sportsgame with the contrast up and having all the stats permanently on my screen :-/


As of now, it doesn't matter, cuz i don't have enough money for even the cheapest CRT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by rolypoly
Tom,

There are some technologies which will not have burn in:

i.e.

DLP

Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)

Yes, I am aware of this.


But none of them can delivery a picture equivalent to say a Hitachi 51s500 for $1600.


I love the image that a well-adjusted CRT-based RPTV can throw up. The price is acceptable to me. I don't care much about whether the set weighs 80 or 240 pounds, or if it is flat enough to hang on a wall.


So the only thing stopping me from buying is the 4:3 issue. Well, and my budget as I can address the 4:3 issue by throwing a lot more money at the solution. But even there, it is my opinion that sets like the Hitachi and Mits produce a better picture than what I've seen from Samsung DLPs. So in that scenario, I would spend twice as much to get a set that doesn't burn in on 4:3 material, but produces an inferior picture on all widescreen material. Another tough choice to make.


This is why I was hoping that the anti-burn-in technologies employed by current CRT-based sets had become more effective. I could easily learn to live with gray vertical bars if they allowed me to watch native aspect 4:3 material without the fear of burn-in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
307 Posts
Hi Tom,


I notice this 4:3 issue alot - what is it? If it is discussed at the top of this thread, I must have missed it. Could you point me in the right direction to find out what this 4:3 issue is with CRT?


thanks alot!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
In a nutshell the 4:3 issue is:


Most TV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 4:3. That is the aspect ratio of a standard tube TV.


HDTV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 16:9. And thus this is the standard to which "widescreen" HDTV sets are made.


Movies can be in 4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2:35:1 or other formats. Most tend to be 1.85:1 or 2.35:1.


So on a standard 4:3 TV, all widescreen material will be displayed with black bars on the top and bottom. The wider the source aspect ratio, the smaller the video image is and the wider the black bars.


On a 16:9 HDTV set, 4:3 source material will not fill up the screen horizontally. So it will have vertical black bars on each side of the image. Note this set will also have horizontal black bars when viewing 2.35:1 material, however those bars will be smaller than when watching on a 4:3 set. Technically a 16:9 CRT could be burned by too much viewing of 2.35:1 material, but most people won't be watching this 75% of the time.


The problem is that some technologies are susceptible to "burn-in" when they are heavily used to watch material that has "black bars" on the screen. Actually the image area is burning in and the black area is unused, which can eventually result in the black areas being a bit brighter when you do use them. For example, if you have a 16:9 HDTV and watch a lot of standard TV 4:3 programming. Eventually when you watch HD programming that fills the screen, the sides of the screen, where the black bars existed while you watched 4:3, will now be a bit brighter than the center of the image.


Owners of HDTV sets that are susceptible to burn-in, such as CRT-based and plasma sets, are motivated to prevent this burn-in from happening. In order to try to burn down the "black bar area" evenly with the center image, manufacturers started to project gray bars instead of black. So those areas of the screen were not completely inactive. The effectiveness of this is what I've been discussing in this thread.


The other alternative is to stretch the 4:3 image so that it completely fills the screen. Early on manufacturers stretched the image evenly across the screen. In recent years they have employed different algorithms, usually leaving the center close to 4:3, so that the center of the action is the natural aspect ratio, but this forces the sides to be more aggressively stretched. A stretched image has no black/gray areas and so this burn-in concern is completely addressed. (Other burn-in issues exist, such as station logos, game/computer fixed images, and overly bright settings.)


I find these stretched images objectionable because they do significantly distort the original image. On a 57" display the image is stretched about a foot to fit the 16:9 screen. However many (most?) HDTV set owners seem to accept this.


There is a third alternative - don't watch much 4:3 programming. If your use of the set for 4:3 is down in the 10%-20% range, then it is unlikely you would see any burn-in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,165 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil


My question is as follows:


Given that one has a calibrated CRT run at recommended contrast and brightness, then what are the chances of experiencing burn if 75% of one's viewing is of 4:3 material in its native aspect ration with grey bars? Let's say the set is on 4 hours a day.


There is a 100% chance of this. How long before it becomes noticeable is a different matter.

Burn in is uneven phospor wear which will occour if a static image is left on the screen 75% of the time no matter what color it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
But I never said anything about a static image.


If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.


Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
first post here. I have a Mistsubishi 55311 for a year or sow now and my son likes to watch Disney Channel, I would say an hour a day but is not everyday. Well I have the beautifull Mickey Mouse ears logo 24 x 7 now. what can I do?


Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,539 Posts
I have a 42WE610 (Sony GWIII RP-LCD).

When displaying a block pattern that has white squares, on the left side of the screen, there is slight ghosting of purple and green on the left and right side of the white boxes. This ghosting is only maybe 1/4 of a pixel wide, but is definitely there.


On the right side of the screen, there is a slight ghosting in the same manner, however it is blue and yellow, again, very slight against the white boxes on the left and right sides of the boxes and only about 1/4 of a pixel wide, and viewable only at a very close range (6" or so).


I'm using a DVI connection from my Nvidia fx5900xt. Is this type of colored ghosting normal, or am I having convergence issues that warrants a service call from a tech for my 42we610?


Again, there is no ghost on the white boxes within a 8" or so radius of the centre of the screen, but the ghosting becomes more pronounced as you travel further from the centre.


I've been told this is normal, as it is called convergence drift or something, but want to get some more assurances.


Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
The electronics of the set can only display whole pixels, so if you are seeing something 1/4 pixel wide, it seems it would have to be a convergence issue. As to whether or not it warrants a service call... Is it at all noticible during normal viewing, or only when your run this very specific test? I think you might have trouble convincing a tech it's a problem being a quarter pixel off on the sides of the screen from 6" away while displaying a test pattern.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
Istvan,


I was waiting to see if others who have more experience in dealing with burn-in would respond, seeing none, I'll jump in.


Your logo burn-in is a nasty, and unfortunately all too common, problem. It is surprising that you would have it given that the channel isn't used all that much. Ther reports about burn-in from the MSNBC and Headline News logos and tickers were abundant back after 911 due to the hundreds of hours people left those channels on, even when working around the house, to keep up with the news.


One thing that sometimes lessens or eliminates the problem is to perform a full-screen white-burn. That is, find a way to display a full screen white image (say from a test DVD) for several hours. Or if you have a VCR or DBS receiver that can generate a blue screen with no lettering or symbols on it, then use that and turn up the brightness and contrast to make it pretty bright.


Some who have sophisticated PCs or good image editing tools, can create reverse-burn images, where they capture say a black screen shot that has the logo present, and then create a negative/reverse image of that shot, where then only the logo is black, and then run that screen for a while to even out the picture.


Others may offer more ideas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,387 Posts

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
But I never said anything about a static image.


If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.


Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.

The grey bars are static in that they are present and unchanging for a significant portion of the time. Grey is quite a bit better than black bars. That said, if it's always on there and the rest of your 4:3 image doesn't average out to the wear caused by grey - someday you will notice a difference. It could take 15-20 years depending on the disparity(well beyond the life of the set - and the disparity is the key reason why black is bad and grey is much more neutral as all television images have some degree of light whereas black has none). With brightness and contrast maxed while watching only 4:3 dark scenes it could take a lot less time than that. There's really no quantitative measure. The risk is lessened but not totally removed and a lot of it depends upon your viewing and how you setup your display.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,755 Posts
If implemented correctly the gray bars are not unchanging. Sets can be programmed to change brightness based upon how bright the scenes are in the 4:3 area. And the grays can have varying black and white "patterns" within them ... sort of like a very fine pitch "snow" pattern.


The data I've seen is that even when displaying gray bars, those areas of the screen are still burning in less than the 4:3 area. Thus the burn-in becomes visible when the gray bar areas begin to be visibly brighter (i.e. have less burn in than the rest of the screen) on full-screen images. I've yet to see a single report in any forum where the gray bar area was dimmer (more burned-in) than the 4:3 area. It's theoretically possible, as you describe above.


What I've been trying to find out is if a set is properly set up with AVIA/DVE, then how much is the risk lessened? Does it take 3X as long? 5X? Seems like it would lessened considerably vis a vis black bars.
 
21 - 40 of 386 Posts
Top