Maudio delta 410 or a revo 7.1?

1381 Views 18 Replies 7 Participants Last post by hdkhang, Feb 24, 2005

zBuff

Discussion Starter · Feb 21, 2005

Hi everybody, I am about to get a new soundcard. And I was wondering which of these 2 are a better choice for HTPC and for Redbook/HDCD/DVD-audio playback. Are they both using the same processor? Any other cards I should be looking at around the $100 range?

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hdkhang

· #2 · Feb 21, 2005

Forget about DVD-A playback if you are considering these two cards.

Delta cards have 6 outputs, Revo 7.1 has 8. Revo has better specs than Delta. Revo has the bass output trimmed -6dB.

If you don't need 8 channels, the Revo 5.1 is better than the Revo 7.1.

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

Jonathan DA

· #3 · Feb 21, 2005

The Delta 410 is an 8 channel card not, a 6 channel card. The Delta and Revos use different processing chips. While the Revo is spec'd better, I believe most people say the Delta has a slight edge in perceived sound quality. I've listened to both and can't say I heard a difference. However, that was in two different systems. I have not had a chance to do an A/B comparison. I use a Delta 410 in my system. The only complaint I've had is that the output is too low to directly drive my Adcom amp without a separate preamp. I get sufficient volume if the slider is maxed out, but as soon as I move the slider down just a bit I get a drastic volume drop. I believe M-Audio has the outputs locked at -6dBv.

zBuff

Discussion Starter · #4 · Feb 21, 2005

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

So they use different chips, I wasn't too sure because I know the REVO uses the Envy 24HT but I've read in some sources that the Delta 410 uses to the same, most sources don't list the chip.

So given that I'm probably going to replace the op-amps in either card I get anyway, which one has the better core processor and DAC? So the output volumes are quite low are they, has ne1 documented board modifications to increase it? I don't as of this moment have a preamp before my amps. I'm using LM3875 Gainclones with a passive volume control (ie pot) I guess if it's really too low I could modify my amp in increase the input gain.

DVD-A I remember reading somewhere in this forum that only the creative cards support DVD-A. But isn't this just determined by the DVD player software as opposed to any hardware constraints (oh except being able to out 24bit/96khz)

I would want 8 channels in any soundcard I choose. Any other options out there you guys would recommend in the same price range?

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Axel

· #5 · Feb 22, 2005

zBuff;

You have pm

____

Axel

Sinobi

· #6 · Feb 22, 2005

M-audio is working on a solution for dvd-audio according to there website.

It's NOT a good idea to change the opamps on the revo.

It's been tried, with less god result, and the original design is simply perfect.

In fact it's better than AKM's (they supply the d/a converters) own reference board, according to Cliff Watson.

I drive my amps directly from the revo with no problem, but not much headroom.

Henrik

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hdkhang

· #7 · Feb 22, 2005

My bad... don't know what card I was thinking about when mentioning that 6 channels misinformation on the Delta... my apologies.

As for DVD-A, it requires a hardware chip to be present in order to play DVD-A at full resolution. Otherwise you would just use WinDVD/PowerDVD and play DVD-A using your Revo/Delta with reduced bitdepth/resolution. The exception being if the DVD-A disc you are listening to does not incorporate any copy protection. This is what I gathered so far.

If you want to drive the amps louder, go with say the Delta 1010lt or the 1010.

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

zBuff

Discussion Starter · #8 · Feb 22, 2005

Sinobi, I hear your point of view, but it been done by a lot of other people with a contrary outcome.
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...3&page=1&pp=20

In the end it's something I've done before with good results in CD players with good results, and something that I can easily reverse if I don't like the changes.

I never believe in consumer grade "perfection" anyway, especially when it comes to audio, compromises are always made with regard to costs, production and availability. Remember reference doesn't equate to "best design" otherwise there would be all those graphic cards out there that far outdo "reference" boards.

Duy-Khang, interesting I didn't know it worked that way, guess I've got some reading to do, hmm I wonder if you can "break" the copy protection, like on DVD video discs.

I'd love to get a delta 1010lt or a 1010 unfortunately it's more than twice at what I'm looking to spend

zBuff

Discussion Starter · #9 · Feb 22, 2005

Something else nice about the 1010s I just noticed they have wordclock.... very nice. Pity they only have balanced inputs for the Mics though and not balanced lineins and lineouts aswell. But I'm sure you would be talking about way bigger biccies for a card that had them

Cliff Watson

· #10 · Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by hdkhang
Forget about DVD-A playback if you are considering these two cards.

Delta cards have 6 outputs, Revo 7.1 has 8. Revo has better specs than Delta. Revo has the bass output trimmed -6dB.

If you don't need 8 channels, the Revo 5.1 is better than the Revo 7.1.

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

I recently posted this data over on the TheaterTek forum to explain the difference between consumer and pro soundcards. The Revo is a Consumer and all Delta cards has a setting for both consumer and Pro levels and none of them have the sub channel lowered by -6dB.

The setting for Consumer is â€“10dBV and for Pro is +4dBu. dBu and dBV are voltage ratios relative to 0.775V and 1V.

The conversion are as follows;

+4 dBu converts to;

1.782 dBV

1.736 Vpeak

1.228 Vrms

30.14 mW Power

14.79 dBm

-10 dBV converts to;

-7.782 dBu

0.4472 Vpeak

0.3162 Vrms

2 mW power

3.01 dBm

The original bass management driver did have a 6dB pad to prevent clipping the sub channel on the DAC when using a crossover on the other channels. After about 6 months that was fixed by including a dynamic peak limiting algorithm for the summed sub channel output.

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hdkhang

· #11 · Feb 22, 2005

With Cliffs clarification (my confusion stems from M-audio placing the Delta410 not in their pro section, they have since removed it from their website as well I see), you should get the same volume output with the Delta410s as you would with the 1010's. So no need to spend more...

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

Sinobi

· #12 · Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by zBuff
Sinobi, I hear your point of view, but it been done by a lot of other people with a contrary outcome.
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showt...3&page=1&pp=20

In the end it's something I've done before with good results in CD players with good results, and something that I can easily reverse if I don't like the changes.

I never believe in consumer grade "perfection" anyway, especially when it comes to audio, compromises are always made with regard to costs, production and availability. Remember reference doesn't equate to "best design" otherwise there would be all those graphic cards out there that far outdo "reference" boards.

I too have often replaced op-amps in CD players ect.

In the following link you'll see people thinking the same as you:
http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...hreadid=280246

BUT

read this before going any further:
http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/s...hreadid=285366

Here Cliff Watson tries out the mods in the only serious listening test I have seen so far.

I am so convinced Cliff is correct that I have stopped thinking about that kind of modding on the revo...

What I have done instead is make a PCI extender cable (tough job) to move the revo outside the PC into it's own noise-free box.

I then soldered 99,99% pure silver solid-core wires from the soundcard to some high quality rca connectors to get rid of the minijacks.

I have also tried removing the +/- 12 V in the PCI cable and connect 2 12 V batteries instead.

This is because revo have it's own regulators on-board for regulation the 12 V to use for the converters and the analog stage.

This way the converters and the analog stage gets a clean supply.

THIS really works and is in every way common sense.

I have just got my hands on 2 12 V regulated power supply's from the military

used for ultra sensitive radar receivers (so they are VERY noise-free),

they are going to replace the batteries very soon (easier to deal with).

Attached is a pic of the job, but before I made the battery mod

(batteries are attached through the black neuritic in the corner)

Henrik

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zBuff

Discussion Starter · #13 · Feb 22, 2005

Thanks fo the extra info Cliff and Duy-Khang, so I guess all else being equal the 410 is the card for me.

Sinobi, wow I must say I'm impressed at that modded Revo, so what are the results? a drop in the noise floor and distortion values?

Sinobi

· #14 · Feb 22, 2005

Well I haven't measured it,

only listened to it, before and after.

The gain is in all areas, but mostly in transparency.

Henrik

hdkhang

· #15 · Feb 23, 2005

Wow!!! Sinobi that looks like a bit of work and care involved there, don't think I'd bother putting that effort into a card at the Revo's prices (but I can surely understand the pride of a job done by oneself and a job well done at that). This is the reason I'm looking into getting the Delta 1010, because it has a breakout box that keeps it free from the PC, has individual connectors for each channel and looks rather cool if ya ask me.

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

mikerine

· #16 · Feb 23, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan DA
The Delta 410 is an 8 channel card not, a 6 channel card. The Delta and Revos use different processing chips. While the Revo is spec'd better, I believe most people say the Delta has a slight edge in perceived sound quality. I've listened to both and can't say I heard a difference. However, that was in two different systems. I have not had a chance to do an A/B comparison. I use a Delta 410 in my system. The only complaint I've had is that the output is too low to directly drive my Adcom amp without a separate preamp. I get sufficient volume if the slider is maxed out, but as soon as I move the slider down just a bit I get a drastic volume drop. I believe M-Audio has the outputs locked at -6dBv.

Sounds like you haven't found the consumer/pro switch on the hardware setup tab. Set it to Pro and the 1.2Vrms output is is more than capable of solely driving an amp to reference level. The consumer setting is only .31 Vrms.

Mike

hdkhang

· #17 · Feb 23, 2005

All this talk, makes me wanna get my hands on a 1010, only problem is over here in AUS, the cheapest they would let one go for is about $1200AUD, compared to what I can get after exchange rates in the US that's twice the price!

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

zBuff

Discussion Starter · #18 · Feb 24, 2005

Duy-Khang,

sometimes sucks living in this par of the world huh. You can always import, good with the way the exchange rate is at the moment, providing you can find a delar that will ship international. Let me know if you find any good places to get computer parts from.

hdkhang

· #19 · Feb 24, 2005

Yeah well there are two dealers from whom I can get the 1010 from overseas, just sitting on the sidelines for a bit waiting to pull the trigger. I wouldn't buy any other parts from overseas though, transit accounts for the majority of defects in hardware, and with the trouble of getting things RMA's and what not, it isn't worth the hassle. Digital Cameras I might consider though, we get ripped to shreds on those prices... and PC speakers as well... sigh.

Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

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