[wtr_wkr]

Can one of you guys that bought a 635 from J&R recently (May05 build date) test it to see if it fixes the Logic 7 problem. (With logic 7 selected, switch channels around, then check to see if you need to re-select Logic 7 or whether it returns to Logic 7 on its own.) It would be nice if you could check the popping problem also.


I figure HK is waiting for new customers to test the new firmware since obviously they do not know how to test audio equipment (or build it.) I just wish their design engineer would move to a different company. Then HK would have nothing in the future and someone else could offer full Logic 7 (under a different name.)


My guess is that he already left and that's why HK is clueless about fixing the design problems.

 

[Megalith]

If you're so tired of it, get a Lexicon.

 

[rrempel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megalith If you're so tired of it, get a Lexicon.

Which is, of course, a Harman company too.


Rod

 

[Sdiver2489]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtr_wkr Can one of you guys that bought a 635 from J&R recently (May05 build date) test it to see if it fixes the Logic 7 problem. (With logic 7 selected, switch channels around, then check to see if you need to re-select Logic 7 or whether it returns to Logic 7 on its own.) It would be nice if you could check the popping problem also. I figure HK is waiting for new customers to test the new firmware since obviously they do not know how to test audio equipment (or build it.) I just wish their design engineer would move to a different company. Then HK would have nothing in the future and someone else could offer full Logic 7 (under a different name.) My guess is that he already left and that's why HK is clueless about fixing the design problems.

The HK bashing has really been on the rise recently...

 

[wtr_wkr]

Good point, HK never had the engineer that developed Logic 7. He works (or worked) for Lexicon.


As expected, HK is using customers to test version:

Dec build date has f/w rev 4.01

Jan build has 5.01

May build has 4.05 and someone thinks it works!!!!!!! (see below)


Note, the x. should be a feature upgrade. The .xx should be the build. So next may be 5.05. Figure HK will keep the same core code in anything new they release, so you should not expect them to release an update until a new model comes out (if one is coming out.) Until then, expect them to issue firmware for customers to test. (This is a common practice these days.)


Re May build (rev 4.05) from other thread: "I have an H/K 635 with May 05 build date. I tried to surf channels and on non-5.1 channels it stays in Logic 7 mode. When I change channels from any channel to a channel broadcasting in 5.1 it switches to either Dolby 5.1 or PLII mode. When I go back to a non 5.1 channel again though it switches to Logic 7 which was previously selected."


"I haven't noticed any of the popping that others talked about when switching channels but I did disable auto-polling when I first got the receiver, since I use optical for all my inputs. "


Could someone test the popping problem on a May build (needs to have auto polling on.)


Now, if one of you guys knows how to load firmware in a 630 AND it includes the option to make a copy of existing firmware BEFORE downloading, we can probably use it to re-program your 635s. (I do not have one yet (I've been waiting for a build with new firmware since it may require a PCB spin to fix problems.)) Ooh yea, does anyone want to check PCB revs? It should be rev'ed even if they just change a component value.


PS re the bashing - HK seems to be a manufacture, not a developer (maybe they once were.) We get the price break and the problems. You get what you pay for. I hope they do not drop full Logic 7 in future releases (like the DPR2005.)

 

[Sdiver2489]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtr_wkr PS re the bashing - HK seems to be a manufacture, not a developer (maybe they once were.) We get the price break and the problems. You get what you pay for. I hope they do not drop full Logic 7 in future releases (like the DPR2005.)

I think that statement is pretty harsh. They have led the way with their EZset/EQ and its ability to reduce the effect of room acoustics on the sound you hear. Their current receivers have all the features many of the other competitors receivers have. There is one problem with being able to hold logic 7 on a digital source when viewing television. Thats not a deal breaker for most people IMO.

 

[wtr_wkr]

You are absolutely right. That's why I'm going to buy the 635. (I already have the repair manual.) And, I hope they have engineers working on new models (because they are obvioulsy not working on fixing old models.) Actually, I would like the next generation 635 with DCDi or a next generation 7300 with full Logic 7 etc (with the 635's DSP). BUT, the forum would need to test their new products before one should buy it and that takes time.


HK only deserves bashing for poor build quality. As someone else pointed out, HK has more problem (build, not audio quality) than all other receivers combined. For me, it's ok because they have a good 2yr warranty. I'm not happy with HK because they are stringing us along (re new firmware) and I have a new HT setup (DVD with DCDi, all new speakers, 1920x1080 res, ...) BUT NO RECEIVER. It all looks great BUT NO SOUND.

 

[dsmith901]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtr_wkr ....., HK has more problem (build, not audio quality) than all other receivers combined.

Can you provide some actual statistical proof of that? If not, I suggest you cool it with the flames.

 

[aydu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsmith901 Can you provide some actual statistical proof of that? If not, I suggest you cool it with the flames.

Just check this forum and compile your own statistical proof. HK has always been famous (or infamous) for great sound quality and flaky engineering and quality control.


Virtually every HK receiver has been riddled with software quirks and premature hardware failures. This is not a flame of HK, but an opinion supported by numerous postings on this board.


As with all forums like AVS, opinions are the currency.

 

[bubbawilly]

I don't see any flaming going on here either. The OP is interested in purchasing the 635, and wants to know if recent build date 635's have fewer bugs than earlier units. He's simply doing his homework. I'm interested as well, so what's the answer???


BTW, you can check virtually any audio forum and see rather quickly the number of problem posts on H/K receivers outnumber the other brands. Those are statistics, and they have been compiled.

 

[lmm]

Last night while watching a DVD (using HTPC), my HK 635 would suddenly turn off. It didn't seem to be "protection mode", since the power switch light was amber, not red. Pressing the power button and it would come back on again.


Any clues? Are there firmware upgrades/instructions posted anywhere?

 

[Sdiver2489]

that sounds like overheating

 

[dsmith901]



Just check this forum and compile your own statistical proof. QUOTE]


Nope, that's not the way it works. The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim, not the one who questions it. Unless you are in Washington of course.

 

[wtr_wkr]

Re Protect/Standby problem. I'm hoping this problem was solved in the 635 design. I would like to hear if the 635 has this problem. It would take time to develop, so if it starts showing up, it's bad news.


For more info, see the thread "Another dead KL AVR630". Here's the best info I've found on this problem, posted by 6volt in a different thread about his 430:


Small World!


Yeah, the random shutdown definitely is a popular failure mode for these receivers.


However, getting it repaired may be the way to actually fix it.


I chatted with the HK rep on their website (a really nice feature.)


He directed me to a repair shop in Virginia Beach as being truly experts.


I called them and was able to get them to let me talk to their service manager and he said they were quite familiar with "classic" protection circuit shutdowns. (I know what he means by "classic." These circuits are used in everything for the last 40 years.)


What is interesting is that he said they were very familiar with the HK problem, it is usually a leaky transistor, and he said that they might be the only place in the country that can actually fix this problem.


I can tell you from experience, that protection circuits are usually the most complex and cryptic circuits in an amplifier. If they have done a bunch of these HK's for shutdown, they have learned the circuit and how to diagnose it and in all probability can fix it.


I was looking forward to sending it in, however, mine just started working perfectly. Leaky components can sometimes self-heal depending on what signals they see.


So I think I have 2 years, huh?


I would definitely try to get mine fixed from these guys rather than get another one which hasn't had the problem fixed. If there is a leaky transistor, the chances are that that production batch of transistors was defective. Once identified, replacement of the buggy transistor is a breeze.


I guess if you wanted to repair it yourself (if you are capable) it might be simplest to replace all the transistors and caps in the protection circuit. But who wants to do that right?


Good luck, get it repaired,

Tom

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbawilly I don't see any flaming going on here either. The OP is interested in purchasing the 635, and wants to know if recent build date 635's have fewer bugs than earlier units. He's simply doing his homework. I'm interested as well, so what's the answer??? BTW, you can check virtually any audio forum and see rather quickly the number of problem posts on H/K receivers outnumber the other brands. Those are statistics, and they have been compiled.

Why not ask one of the sellers for more info..


Do you know about the major AVR brand that had a flaming resistor in its protection circuit..


Or what about the AVR that had overcompensation in the protection circuit and would not drive a loudspeaker that was below 6 ohms..


Or what about the AVR that would lock up when the Zone II feature was used, here the fix didn't come out until the product was discontinued..


Or what about the AVR that had an RS 232 port that was not activated...

Hint... Hint..

These were not HK AVRs but rather is a very prominent Japanese brand very, very often mentioned here on AVS..

As being the best built, the best sounding, the most reliable..


Talk to the installers and very quickly...

One will find out which products are higher rated, more reliable and are supported more strongly..

 

[bubbawilly]

Ask the sellers


We all know that you sell and install H/K, but I'd rather ask the owners (buyers) what they think of a given product, not the sellers.


The buyers have spoken here and on virtually every other A/V forum. I'm quite certain that other AVR brands (all electronics, for that matter) have experienced 'problems,' and they correct them and move on, but H/K is the only brand that I've seen where buyers have described the same or very similar QC/reliability problems for numerous generations of product. But, don't take my word for it. Just ask the buyers, like the OP has done here.


Ask the sellers I know what they'll say. I want the real story, not some reseller's spin.


For a minute I almost took you seriously

 

[keelmoose]

GET REAL! Anyone pretending to use the "statistics" compiled by reading a forum such as AVS is kidding themselves because they are missing the one KEY number needed to compute the failure rate: The actual number of units SOLD. Presumably no one outside of HK knows that, and without it how can you say what the failure rate is? Yes, when products fail people understandably complain, and those complaints stick out in everyone's mind. BUT: NO ONE HERE (except maybe M Code who seems to have mysterious knowledge about all things HK) knows how many of the units are sold both the AVS readers, and more importantly, to the greater marketplace elsewhere, that work just fine.


AND: While it is undeniable that some of the issues talked about here are real failures, others are things that are bugs that, while annoying to the more sophisticated user here, may not be a problem at all to the broader, mainstream user base.


"Talk to the installers" and you'll find that the go with the product that gives them the least headaches and delivers the greatest margins. THAT is what a logical business person would want unless they are a true partisan. Oh, yes, and like in any other business, for the most part, and with the exception of true high-end custom where people buy features, not brands, they sell what customers ask for. Funny thing about that.

 

[avaholic]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know my long history with HK was poor. Loved the sound and features, but in the end, I could not take their poor QC anymore. I was a "glutton" for punishment, each new model that I owned I just kept telling myself it had to get better!

Of all the HK avrs I've owned, only one never had a problem. That was the first HK I ever owned, mk20II about 8 years ago. After that I owned the AVR500 (two that died), AVR520, AVR7000, and a AVR8000. All had various issues. So that is one HK avr out of six that never failed for me over a period of about 5-6 years. I can't remember the members, but there were at least two here on AVS that had a similar number of failed HK's. For almost three years now I have owned another brand (two different models) with absolutly no issues at all!


Btw: about 4-5 years ago I was looking into local HK dealers/service centers/installers. In my area I contacted two such businesses that stopped carrying HK. I was told it was because there were too many problems related to QC!


Sometimes it's a "crap-shoot", I personally prefer not to take my chances with HK anymore.


To be fair, I have also heard of quite a few on this board that have had no issues with their HK's.


Best Regards,

Patrick

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbawilly Ask the sellers We all know that you sell and install H/K, but I'd rather ask the owners (buyers) what they think of a given product, not the sellers. The buyers have spoken here and on virtually every other A/V forum. I'm quite certain that other AVR brands (all electronics, for that matter) have experienced 'problems,' and they correct them and move on, but H/K is the only brand that I've seen where buyers have described the same or very similar QC/reliability problems for numerous generations of product. But, don't take my word for it. Just ask the buyers, like the OP has done here. Ask the sellers I know what they'll say. I want the real story, not some reseller's spin. For a minute I almost took you seriously

You are confusing the terms of seller and installer..


The seller sells only the product and if there are any technical or service issues they are usually referred back to the brand. Also the overhead/expense structure of the seller can vary greatly. But he makes his profit by the one-time component sale.


The installer makes his money on the install labor, so if a product fails a repeat service call is required. And often a loaner or replacement product is required. Yes, we do make a minimal profit on the component sale but if we have to send another technician/truck out to replace an AVR or DVD player the additional labor/overhead expense far exceeds the profit from the sale of a single component.


A good example, is an install we are just finishing up the total cost of the install is about $19,200. And the component costs are slightly over $8500, the other $10,700 is labor including in-wall mounting of a plasma panel, in-wall mounting of audio loudspeakers (4 pairs), mounting of loudspeakers for the home theater room (5.1), pulling of 550' of cabling and custom mounting of the audio/video components. The choice of components was made based upon the customer's system requirements, we could have recommended other audio/video brands besides Harman/Kardon and Infinity but have had great sucess and performance so we went with them. Note that we carry virtually NO hardware inventory as this is purchased through our distributors.


The HK products require significantly more setup expertise as they offer many feature/setup options over the competition.. And often the less experienced consumer becomes frustrated as they are not able to configure these properly. Then they turn to the internet and discussion groups to vent their opinions.. Also the seller type dealer has little incentive and often is not willing to make the customer satisfied by exchanging the unit or issuing a refund, so he just blows off him off. Guess who the customer than goes back to for resolution..

ie.. The brand not the seller..


We have access to several other major AV brands besides HK including Yamaha, Denon, Elite and Marantz but have had incredibly great, reliable performance from HK products as long as they are installed and configured properly..


The problems I noted in my other insert are real ones and entail one of the major Japanese audio brands, read some of the other AVS threads closely and you will be able to correlate which brand we are referring to..


Just my $.02 worth...

 

[avaholic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code Talk to the installers and very quickly... One will find out which products are higher rated, more reliable and are supported more strongly..

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code The HK products require significantly more setup expertise as they offer many feature/setup options over the competition.. And often the less experienced consumer becomes frustrated as they are not able to configure these properly. Then they turn to the internet and discussion groups to vent their opinions.. We have access to several other major AV brands besides HK including Yamaha, Denon, Elite and Marantz but have had incredibly great, reliable performance from HK products as long as they are installed and configured properly.. The problems I noted in my other insert are real ones and entail one of the major Japanese audio brands, read some of the other AVS threads closely and you will be able to correlate which brand we are referring to.. Just my $.02 worth...

C'mon M Code..........,


It's very clear you are looking at "your side of the coin"!


First of all, there are 5 popular AV installers in my area of N. Cailf. guess how many of them installs HK equipment on even a small scale, ZERO!


As far as the HK's requiring "significantly more setup expertise", that is a matter of opinion, and IMHO that is quite an overstatement on your part. I found them extrememly easy to setup over the 6 six years of owning them. Usually AVR's that are sold in Circuit City are not really targeted at custom home installs either. To be perfectly honest I don't think any AVR that difficult to setup, then again I've been a Tech. myself for over 20 years, so I'm probably not your average consumer, but even so please don't try to relate QC problems with HK with setup/configuration issues, that's just plain wrong!


As far as eluding to consumers problems being related to being configuered properly, I guess you would consider the volume intermittently maxing itself out and potentially blowing speakers a configuration issue? Which by the way happened to me on the AVR500 (two different ones) and the 7000. This was a very wide and well known problem with HK avr's for a couple of years across a couple of generations of models. Or how about the avr just completely shutting down during normal playback levels and "dying". This happened to me with the 520, and from what I understand continues to happen with current models such as the 635! Or how about an intermittent loud buzz in the rear channels during DD/DTS playback (happened with the 8000)! Yep all configuration problems!


These "real problems" you describe with another brand is comical in comparison.

Are there any "current" models from this "other" brand that are still exibiting these issues you refer to from awhile back? Across how many different models did these problems occur?? Pretty easy to see what I'm getting at here.


I understand you push HK, and that's cool. I'm glad you have had such good success with their installs, but please don't try to convince anyone here that HK's QC problems are setup/configuration issues.


Best Regards,

Patrick