meanwhile, over in the rich guys forum...

Excuse me but I find the “black as greyâ€-discussion a bit overrated. I have spent much of my time in cinema theatres and the black isn’t “blacker†in an ordinary theatre than from my TW100 at home.


I have also noted that black isn’t black on an ordinary TV-set either. If you move up close enough you will discover that black is really dark grey on an ordinary TV-screen too.


I admit that black is “blacker†from a CRT or a DLP but is it more film like? I don’t think so, but I must admit that a picture with deep black level and vibrant colours is very impressive and seductive, film like or not...


I guess that “TV like†would be a better description of the image quality that some describe as “film likeâ€. CRT projectors are still superior when it comes to deliver that kind of image and DLP is fast catching up.


I would also like to point out that that I find most LCD projectors, projecting towards a normal white screen with factory settings, producing an unacceptable image when it comes to black level and details. But the combination of proper projector, grey screen, filter, calibration and light control etc. can and will produce a very film like picture. There is no doubt about that because I have the privilege to watch one every night

All projectors have problems in one area or another.

Try “wow my CRT projector really kicks ass, look at those deep blacks, can you guys come back in half an hour after I fix the convergence!â€.

Black level is definitely NOT the only issue, it is not even the most important in my opinion. Black does not exist, there are only levels of grey.


I look at it this way – two years ago the best contrast available on a digital projector was about 200:1, and a lot were muddling through at 100:1 or less. People still bought them an used them for viewing movies. Take for example the venerable Sony VW10 – out of the box it has a real ANSI contrast of about 90:1 (Correct me if I am wrong ;-), but if you feed it with a nice bright image it looks great. Now as the brightness of the image drops, you will start noticing that the black is more grey than black and it becomes a problem. Poor black level doesn’t make all images look bad, just some of them.


Just to throw so figures in, let us assume that at 100:1 contrast you can watch 90% of all movie images without noticing a problem. At 200:1 you get to watch 95%, at 300:1 98% and so on.

OK these remaining few percent of scenes might be annoying but as contrast increase, they occur less frequently. Eventually there will be a point were only the most critical 0.5% of scenes are showing a lack of detail in the darkest of corners.

bgl90042


The 98% was just a figure, there are no statistics packed behind it. Maybe it is 99% maybe it is 60%.


That 2% might also be the only 2% you are interested in, so it is more significant, other people may only watch animations and then the 2% probably vanishes off to zero.


I have looked at buying a CRT projector before and I don’t see them being given away. Yes you can get a low end refurbished projector cheap, but I don’t want one. Now if we were talking top of the range Sony G90 for a few hundred dollars I would say yes, but I haven’t seen one. The ones going cheap (At least here in Europe) have small tubes, low lumens, low resolution and fixed TV frequency. Maybe the market in the US is different.


Liam

Well, I don't believe the over 5,000 is a rich man's forum. I spent most of my time here in the under 5K forum when looking for a projector. The one I chose after a year of research and demonstrations was a direct result of what I read on this forum.


I went to look at the NEC LT260 after reading about its great picture. When I compared the picture from the 260, a DLP, to the image from the TW100, I simply liked the 260 better. However, when trying to get good processing and a little "future proofing" I decided to move up one more notch to the HT1000 (which although it lists over 5k actual fact is less than 5K especially after the rebate from the manufacturer).


The HT1000 offered premium video processing through the Faroudja circuitry, better colors through the improved color wheel and the abiltiy to process up to 1080P signals. I have no need to use a HTPC now and was able to put together a very simple to use theater which is important to me for the wife and kids to be able to use it.


Debate about technologies is fruitless, in the end, as much comes down to personal perception and I urge you simply to get out to see them all and decide for yourself.

Basically, we HAVE to deal with "TV Like" images. This is the reality of the consumer market.


The odd piece of HT gear will be set up properly..but have no software to use with it, due to the fact that all software is slated toward the average user, that expects a mis-adjusted image as the standard fare that they understand. They use it on their standard 'mis adjusted' cheap gear.


As PJ prices DROP, you will see more mis-adjsuted gear coming straight from the factory, completely waaayyy out of whack. Annoying the crap out of all of us who want properly done gear. The best you can hope for, is that a proper calibration set-up has been put into the PJ in question, as a 'movie' mode of some sort. (proper color, proper tint, proper black level and gamma, etc. Hopefully the PJ in question can actually do it. At this point, most cannot, so mis-adjustment is the only way to 'romance' your brain. Better PJ's are coming, but one can only hope that the nightmare of mis-adjusted crap will no longer reign..but that is not likely.


Facts are... that the majority rules, and the majority sees film like as 'TV like'. This is all they know.


For example. (related to me, in person)


Here's one for you that explains it clearly:


A Screen manufacturer walks into a high end A/V shop in the Toronto area (Ontario, Canada).


He TRIES to sell the shop in question on a screen that ---PROPERLY-- reproduces black level detail, and color purity.


He SHOWS them the differences between the (high profile) screen that is on their wall, and the product that he manufactures.


He SHOWS them, CLEARLY, easily, the differences between the two, and that his screen is OBVIOUSLY much more correct.


The projector in use is brutally mis-adjsuted, so as to look like the '5 minute romance' set-up that is used to appeal to the masses as what represents a 'proper image fidelity'. (The DLP projector looked exactly like the un-calibrated CRT RPTV that was in the same room!! This is what people expect!!) The screen in question, (on the wall) exaggerates this difference, and allows the 'not quite good enough' contrast range on the DLP PJ in use, to be mis-adjsuted so the colors 'pop',and there is falsified depth to the image. Depth that is not really there, just seemingly there, because the black levels are mis-adjsuted, and there are NO details in the blacks. Colors are falsely saturated, etc....


The store staff and owners all agree that the product being shown is superior to the one on the wall. The differences are obvious.


The owners and staff all say that the screen will never sell, as the customer expects the falsified 'pop' in the image, due to brainwashing about what actually is right, and depth of belief in the screen that is on the wall.


The manufacturer leaves in utter disgust, as he is trying to bring people the proper image, but has to fight with everyone's false expectations about what is right.


True story.

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Yes blacks have been the achilles heel but from my view I want to re-create the cinema experience in my home. That means I want incredible high contrast of 2000:1 and very high resolution and very dark blacks (not complete black). The HT1000 I suspect creates very dark blacks and not CRT blacks, as Ive seen quite a few DLP's and have always thought their blacks were way overrated considering you have to put up with rainbows occasionaly when watching content. Give me WSXGA and 2000:1 LCD projector with deep blacks and Ill be the first in line to buy it for £3000.

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I dont really understand your analogy, you could also say DLP projectors give an awesome 'film' like picture but I see rainbows occasionaly and/or get headaches after a long period of time. Contrast and resolution is more important than CRT like blacks.


I felt that DLP generally gave me more eyestrain for some reason, some people are not affected by DLP technology which is why you should always demo a projector for at least a weekend. The technology will get better and when they find the solution to the rainbow effect then more people will probably take up the technology. Although by that time laser based projectors may be out, who knows what the future brings. LCOS maybe the future of projectors, we really cannot say for sure. All I know is that I saw half a dozen rainbows when I viewed two movies in succession on a Sharp 9000 DLP. Maybe this NEC HT1000 is better in this respect?, I do not know until I demo it myself.

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I had a look at this more sophisticated discussion you were referring to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=191733 . I must say I was underwhelmed with information, I much preferred reading this thread http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...threadid=54668 which went into more real world details about the projector. Some people prefer to buy cheap projectors every year or so rather than splash down £5000+ every 3 or 4 years. Technology moves at a very fast rate imho.


I didnt read the threads which got pulled but seriously in your last paragraph you are suggesting that 'discussion is generally higher and more sophisticated in the >$5000 forum' and are now saying 'they are more successful'. Maybe in the

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Oh please, how necessary is it to stereotype our sophistication by how much we want to spend on a projector? If you feel part of the country club set by participating in the over 5 forum - enjoy yourself.


But ANY time you move up to loftier priced catagories for ANY kind of product, you can always expect abundant rhetoric, highly technical B.S., and the promise of in-the-know status for the extra dollars.


For proof, go to your local high end stereo store, and compare the quality of rhetoric and head spinning engineering jargon for a $500 set of cables compared to what you'll hear about Monster cables at Best Buy. No mystique - no sale.


All that said, from what I've read here, if the HT1000 was in my budget I'd do whatever necessary to demo one, even WITH my DLP headache problems. It sounds like a heck of a projector for its price.