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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Fascinating reading in today's New York Times.


An article by Frank Rich titled "The Greatest Story Ever Told", in which he responds to Mel Gibson's remarks published in the Sept 15 issue of the New Yorker. In that interview, Mel Gibson says about Frank Rich: "I want to kill him...I want his intestines on a stick... I want to kill his dog".


Kinda a cross between Braveheart and Mike Tyson there from ole Mel... Lots of Passion, if you get my drift...


And an excellent polemic from Frank Rich in today's NYT. Read it if you can. In it, Rich alleges connections of the right wing Passion campaign to Washington policymakers. This thing has become much bigger than just a movie. It is about political power struggle in the United States drawn along conservative Christian/Jewish lines. The most refreshing discussion I've heard in years.


The bottom line is that even if this movie never finds a distributor due to pressure from the Jewish groups, it will make zillions worldwide when it comes out on DVD, partly due to free advertising from the ADL.


Addendum:


On AVS Forum movies, hardware and circumstances surrounding them are routinely discussed even before the official release. I hope this post adds to the discussion (pointing towards the polemic from Frank Rich which expands the issue at hand into the Washington politics), and won't be yanked.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by wojtek



I hope this post adds to the discussion (pointing towards the polemic from Frank Rich which expands the issue at hand into the Washington politics), and won't be yanked.
I'll give it a day, maybe two. I wish all of you people would stop posting these damn discussions and links about this movie until it hits the theaters. This is nothing but perpetual flaming, theology, politics, philosophy, speculation and the like. Give it up, please!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ALIENS
I'll give it a day, maybe two. I wish all of you people would stop posting these damn discussions and links about this movie until it hits the theaters. This is nothing but perpetual flaming, theology, politics, philosophy, speculation and the like. Give it up, please!!!!
ALIENS, I disagree.


How is this different from the incessant talk on this forum about soon-to-be-released DVD players, plasma displays, or movies? Because it is a difficult topic? Well, then, it's too bad. Nobody should be flamed here, but open discussion should be welcome, I would hope. What scares me is that an even civil discussion on this topic is discouraged by many. This is a big story that is quickly becoming much bigger than any story emanating from Hollywood. Not talking about it is a mistake.
 

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wojtek,

I've yet to see a discussion of a DVD player or plasma display have religious and political implications ( although it gets to the point that AV is almost a religion at times:D ).


One of the most refreshing things, for me , about this forum is that it doesn't deteriorate in to the kinds of discussions you are encouraging.


I would ask you this, what is your motivation for adding another thread on a subject that has had one thread pulled and another closed very recently?


Art
 

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The NEW YORK TIMES? Isn't that paper now owned by The National Enquirer, and Jayson Blair is the Editor-In-Chief?


Seriously, though, a search at the NYTimes on the Web did NOT return this article. Do you know which section it's in (maybe searches only work on archived articles -- i.e., today's stories won't be searchable until tomorrow)?


As for your statements:

In it, Rich alleges connections of the right wing Passion campaign to Washington policymakers. This thing has become much bigger than just a movie. It is about political power struggle in the United States drawn along conservative Christian/Jewish lines. The most refreshing discussion I've heard in years.


The bottom line is that even if this movie never finds a distributor due to pressure from the Jewish groups, it will make zillions worldwide when it comes out on DVD, partly due to free advertising from the ADL.



1. I would not accept at face value the NYTimes' characterization of something like this. Terms like "right wing Passion campaign" and "political power struggle" are in the eyes and interpretations of the writer, and are likely simplistic, perhaps even wrong.


2. I don't think a Sunday School story told in two dead languages with possibly no subtitles is going to make tens or hundreds of millions of shekels or drachmas worldwide -- and the kind of publicity the ADL is giving it is not going to significantly affect the audience draw. What's Mel going to do -- place ads that state: "Feared by Jews everywhere! The movie the ADL tried to ban!!" I think not. If anything, the ADL's activities will likely dissuade some Jewish viewers from going (as if many Jews are going to see this anyway), and likely won't increase Christian attendance. Just my 2 leptons' worth.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by wojtek
ALIENS, I disagree.


How is this different from the incessant talk on this forum about soon-to-be-released DVD players, plasma displays, or movies? Because it is a difficult topic? Well, then, it's too bad. Nobody should be flamed here, but open discussion should be welcome, I would hope. What scares me is that an even civil discussion on this topic is discouraged by many. This is a big story that is quickly becoming much bigger than any story emanating from Hollywood. Not talking about it is a mistake.
You can't compare discussions about soon to be released A/V equipment with discussions about a soon to be released very controversial film which seems to evoke great passions and divides conservative Christians and Jews. Lets get real. I'm not going to repeat the often repeated point about the number of wars that have been started and people who have died in the name of religion ( I guess I just did:)) but there is a reason for that bloody history. Some people are extraordinarily passionate about their religion.


I don't mind the discussions. They are interesting to read but don't pretend it's no different than discussing the soon to be released Sony HD300.
 

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The NY Times makes it hard to get into their web site. This is a reprint of the Rich article in the International Hearld Tribune.
http://www.iht.com/articles/110507.html


Rich says it better than I did in my earlier post. Here is part of what he said:


What makes the saga of ‘‘The Passion’’ hard to ignore is the extent to which his combative marketing taps into larger angers. The ‘‘Passion’’ fracas is happening in an increasingly divided America fighting a war that many on both sides see as a religious struggle. While Gibson may have thought he was making a biblical statement, his partisans are turning him into an ideological cause..

The lines are drawn on seethepassion.com, the most elaborate Web site devoted to championing Gibson. There we’re told that the debate over ‘‘The Passion’’ has ‘‘become a focal point for the Culture War which will determine the future of our country and the world.’’


The "future of our country and the world".? As you can see this subject inflames and insights. People may argue about whether Plasma, Dlp, Lcd or

Lcos offers the better technology but those discussions hardly rival those about the future of our country and the world.


BTW: Rich's article is worth reading.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DOBE
The NY Times makes it hard to get into their web site. This is a reprint of the Rich article in the International Hearld Tribune.
http://www.iht.com/articles/110507.html


Rich says it better than I did in my earlier post. Here is part of what he said:


What makes the saga of ‘‘The Passion’’ hard to ignore is the extent to which his combative marketing taps into larger angers. The ‘‘Passion’’ fracas is happening in an increasingly divided America fighting a war that many on both sides see as a religious struggle. While Gibson may have thought he was making a biblical statement, his partisans are turning him into an ideological cause..

The lines are drawn on seethepassion.com, the most elaborate Web site devoted to championing Gibson. There we’re told that the debate over ‘‘The Passion’’ has ‘‘become a focal point for the Culture War which will determine the future of our country and the world.’’


The "future of our country and the world".? As you can see this subject inflames and insights. People may argue about whether Plasma, Dlp, Lcd or

Lcos offers the better technology but those discussions hardly rival those about the future of our country and the world.


BTW: Rich's article is worth reading.
http://www.seethepassion.com/


This is described on its Web page as "An independent website supporting the movie, "The Passion"" and states: "This website is sponsored by Women Influencing the Nation (WIN) and is completely independent of Mel Gibson, Icon Productions, and the movie The Passion."


The verbiage on the page (I won't quote it) is the kind of faith-baiting we've seen on other issues and Web sites when people at the other end of the political or religious spectrum are described as the anti-Christ or the Beast or as right-wing Fundamentalist Mullahs. I hope Gibson disavows the Web site and asks them to take it down -- but I doubt if he will. From reading the front page of the Web site, even though I am wanting to see the film, I do not think I want to read what they have posted here.
 

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eweiss: Wow, when I saw that you had responded to my post I thought we were in for another heated debate.:) To the contrary, I totally agree with you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn


One of the most refreshing things, for me , about this forum is that it doesn't deteriorate in to the kinds of discussions you are encouraging.


I would ask you this, what is your motivation for adding another thread on a subject that has had one thread pulled and another closed very recently?


Art
The Rich article will apear in tomorrow's NYT. I subscribe to it and get a bunch of Sunday sections on Saturday. Sorry for the misinformation.


I don't think I am encouraging any discussions that would require "forum deterioration" in order to take place. Forum rules must be obeyed at all times. Did I break any?


Has this topic been banned by AVS, in case I missed it?


My motivation to posting is simple: an excellent Frank Rich article which I tried to point out to interested forum members, as well as a big movie-related story IMO worthy of further discussion.


Seems to me, on the other hand, that you are trying to stop any discussions on this topic. What is your motivation?
 

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wojtek,

Audio Video Science Forum : I guess I just misjudged after being around here for 3 plus years what this place is. My motivation is simple also , to hope that this place doesn't become a haven for religious fanatics and extremist political discussions that are inflammatory, and will never be settled but only argued. Perhaps that's a good thing as you see it but not me.


It looks like my hope that this place would and could be a haven from such people will be dashed by those like you who will insist on it being thrown in our faces.


I suppose that ultimately I will fail since it will always be easier to start another thread than it would be to get one stopped.


I had a fifth grade teacher who taught as if class was Sunday school. Despite being raised in a Christian home, the kinds of things and the way they were discussed made me uncomfortable even then. Being able to choose if I was going to have religion crammed down my throat ( my father taught Sunday school in a vastly different way) has been important to me. It is my opinion that keeping religion out of this forum has enabled it to be a more powerful place for EVERYONE. When I see this cloud forming around here, it is ,in my opinion, a diminution of this place .


I hope that your goals are other than what it looks like but I doubt it.



Art
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by DOBE
The NY Times makes it hard to get into their web site. This is a reprint of the Rich article in the International Hearld Tribune.
http://www.iht.com/articles/110507.html


Rich says it better than I did in my earlier post. Here is part of what he said:


... BTW: Rich's article is worth reading.
I agree. It's worth reading. I'd criticize it on a few points, and I don't think he's telling the whole story, or both/all sides of the story, but it corrects the impression I got from the first post here about what Rich and The NYT were actually saying re: the movie, political/religious factions supporting it, etc. Without reading the source documents, interviews, articles, etc., that Rich refers to, I don't know how much of what Rich writes is truthful. E.g., Rich alludes to the nun's writings by writing: "But by his own account, he has based his movie on at least one revisionist source, a 19th-century stigmatic nun, Anne Catherine Emmerich, notable for her grotesque caricatures of Jews," which, from reading lengthy sections of THE DOLOROUS PASSION, is to me a caricature of Emmerich. And I have it from an in-person conversation with a Dallas Theological Seminary professor who saw the screening in Dallas or Houston that the nun's writings play very little part in the movie. Was Rich the guy who tried to crash the Washington, D.C., screening without an invitation, and was escorted out?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
wojtek,

Audio Video Science Forum : I guess I just misjudged after being around here for 3 plus years what this place is. My motivation is simple also , to hope that this place doesn't become a haven for religious fanatics and extremist political discussions that are inflammatory, and will never be settled but only argued. Perhaps that's a good thing as you see it but not me.


It looks like my hope that this place would and could be a haven from such people will be dashed by those like you who will insist on it being thrown in our faces.


I suppose that ultimately I will fail since it will always be easier to start another thread than it would be to get one stopped.


I had a fifth grade teacher who taught as if class was Sunday school. Despite being raised in a Christian home, the kinds of things and the way they were discussed made me uncomfortable even then. Being able to choose if I was going to have religion crammed down my throat ( my father taught Sunday school in a vastly different way) has been important to me. It is my opinion that keeping religion out of this forum has enabled it to be a more powerful place for EVERYONE. When I see this cloud forming around here, it is ,in my opinion, a diminution of this place .


I hope that your goals are other than what it looks like but I doubt it.



Art
Art:


I hear you. However, this happens to be a movie forum, and if a movie is about religion/religious figures, it should be discussed here. Would you ban a discussion on a movie about the Dalai Lama? If there was a movie about Buddha, would you ban it, too? How about Moses? Mohammed? It's a slippery slope, you know. What discussion are people going to ban next?


No one wants religious fanatics in here. If they come here to agitate they will be banned in no time, I'm sure.


My motivation here is simple: I thought the Frank Rich article was definitely newsworthy and I strongly feel that Passion and the attendant developments should be discussed *within the rules of this forum*.


I am a bit troubled by this: "I suppose that ultimately I will fail since it will always be easier to start another thread than it would be to get one stopped". I hope than in your attempts to stop the "offending" threads you will follow this forum's rules.
 

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I have no ability to stop anything here. This is not my forum nor am I a moderator . I think you will find that I've been given the moniker on more than one occasion of the voice of reason on the forum. All I can do is voice my displeasure with the road things appear to going down ( the third thread on this religious discussion).



Art
 

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Interesting essay on the NT/Biblical issues related to the controversy surrounding/attending THE PASSION:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2088417/


Excerpt:

"...it's no surprise that it is nearly impossible to have a constructive interfaith conversation about the Crucifixion. This is already evident in the reaction to Mel Gibson's new movie, The Passion. Not due out until next year, it's so far stirred up much emotion but disappointingly little productive discussion."
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
I have no ability to stop anything here. This is not my forum nor am I a moderator . I think you will find that I've been given the moniker on more than one occasion of the voice of reason on the forum. All I can do is voice my displeasure with the road things appear to going down ( the third thread on this religious discussion).


Art
When a thread starts taking a direction I don't like or that I think is not good for AVSForum, I usually do one of two things:


a) If I'm not all that interested or committed to the topic under discussion, I simply stop reading or commenting on the thread, and let those who do or want to have a stake in the discussion deal with the comments/commentors in their own time and way or let them call in Larry or Dave to straighten things out. But I don't tell them what to do or when to do it.


b) If I have a vital or serious or pleasurable interest in the thread and some things are said and done that I think are wrong or damaging or out of bounds, then I try to let my feelings be known, either on the thread or as a PM to the moderators.


At least I think that's what I do. Sometimes I feel the character of Leonard Shelby (MEMENTO) was partly based on me.
 

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I wouldn’t want to be in the moderator’s shoes when this movie hits the theaters. I’m afraid this will be a difficult and changing time ahead for this forum (DS review) when this is released. We’re dealing in beliefs here, and that is when people will fight to the death to defend what they believe is real. IMO, it’s all real, it’s just how you allow it to play out in your life.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ALIENS
I wouldn’t want to be in the moderator’s shoes when this movie hits the theaters. I’m afraid this will be a difficult and changing time ahead for this forum (DS review) when this is released. We’re dealing in beliefs here, and that is when people will fight to the death to defend what they believe is real. IMO, it’s all real, it’s just how you allow it to play out in your life.
No worse than BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE was... (but that came up as part of the (in)famous Iraq Crisis Forum).


Since this thread is titled "Digital Software Discussion and Reviews," maybe comments about the movie can be postponed until the DVD is released -- and then, like BFC, we can be restricted to discussing only the DVD proper. Or, Larry & Dave can demand that all discussions of this movie be in Latin or Aramaic only. That might keep the flames/fires under control. :D
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by wojtek
Has this topic been banned by AVS, in case I missed it?


My motivation to posting is simple: an excellent Frank Rich article which I tried to point out to interested forum members, as well as a big movie-related story IMO worthy of further discussion.


Seems to me, on the other hand, that you are trying to stop any discussions on this topic. What is your motivation?



Note to moderators, please kill this and all future references until its release date!


The premise of this film is clearly causing passionate debate. The debate of this film is as incinderary as its topic. As an imperfect correlation on my part ; would AVS allow discussion on the politics of slavery from "THE BIRTH OF A NATION" by DW Griffith. Here we are having a heated disussion about the politics of religion. Avs has seen fit to ban any BFC posts;Why not "PASSION"? At least until its release when we will revisit these same issues.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by coug7669
Note to moderators, please kill this and all future references until its release date!


The premise of this film is clearly causing passionate debate. The debate of this film is as incinderary as its topic. As an imperfect correlation on my part ; would AVS allow discussion on the politics of slavery from "THE BIRTH OF A NATION" by DW Griffith. Here we are having a heated disussion about the politics of religion. Avs has seen fit to ban any BFC posts;Why not "PASSION"? At least until its release when we will revisit these same issues.
There are 100 threads of blather about xXx and Star Wars (and can anyone honestly say that the passions that flare up over George Lucas are any less heated in the minds of some people than this one) to keep everyone happy and no one has a gun to their head to click on this one or anything else about The Passion. I tend to think anyone that complains about this thread yet participates in it is being, well, sorry, hypocritical. Larry is working hard to keep things civil and I think the participants are doing a good job as well.
 
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