AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,971 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It occurred to me that we never started a dedicated thread for this robust product.

While I have never figured out how to efficiently use this for repairing the shaky 3D video, it does work well for stabilizing 3D that is separated into left and right files, repair them each using the same settings and then pair them back into a 3D file again.

Using Mercalli for my Nabi twin cameras was fairly quick since I'm shooting twin cameras so I have a left eye and right eye file set for starters. However, what about video from my 3D camcorders?

The first step would be to separate the video clips into left and right eye files then port them into Mercalli and stabilize the clips.

So what are you all using to render a single m2ts 3D file from your camcorder to a twin pair for Mercalli?

Currently I use Vegas and have to do two renderings to an MP4 2D file. This can become very time consuming. Does anyone know of a tool that will separate the m2ts 3D clip into the left and right without rendering? I currently have a project with 80 small clips and just the handling of these in Vegas is quite a time consumer. I could handle each separately rendering twice, but a faster way is to put all the files on the timeline and then render to one big file for each left and right. Then stabilize the two in Mercalli, finally pair them back together in Vegas Pro and then split the big clip back into the individual scenes.

I understand that Edius and other editing software has an image stabilizer that works with 3D, but I have Vegas Pro and it's stabilizer stuff built in is nowhere near the quality of Mercalli. especially with CMOS wobble corrections.

Wolfgang- do you know if Vegas Pro can batch render multiple timeline selections to produce a number of files unattended? That might be one solution to streamlining the process.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,634 Posts
Don, I did a test with Gopro in Edius--using the 3D subfile that is created from L/R videos, and I must say, the difference is minor. In fact, you save the intermediate render so the images are cleaner. I don't want to muddy your waters, but the Edius Pro 7 trial is 30 days and you get the full app. You might try it, and see what you think. That said, if you really have a crazy walking video like my gopro videos walking down the driveway, or to avoid wing flapping on extreme wide angle, then Mercalli is better.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,971 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Bob- I have yet to see an example of Edius stabilization before and after of 3D video.

As I said, this is not about dealing with Nabi where the left and right are already separate, ( same with Gopro 3D system) the specific question is how to more efficiently separate the 3D m2ts file from the camcorder into left right file pairs to use with Mercalli.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Don, the only way I know of to do it is with Edius separate L/R which does it in one operation. However, having both Edius & Mercalli, I'm of the opinion that with my camcorder content, I'll probably never have to use anything but Edius. It's very, very good. With GP, only occasionally will it be needed.

On an unrelated note, I've discovered that the Mercalli CMOS settings can be VERY counterproductive. In some experiments I did from content of a 2D 1080 60p 3 chip camcorder, those CMOS settings actually ADDED wobble and jello, when I disabled them all, it looked really good. Again, there are probably times when these settings would be helpful, but I suspect that much of the time, they may create the very problems they were intended to solve.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,971 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Barry- The GoPro, as I see from Bob's and many other owner's video with the GP3, the CMOS problem is pervasive. So much so that my son in law who loves his GP suffers with it and I have volunteered to do correction for him with Mercalli. I continue to use it for all my sources now. As you know I'm most excited with the ability to use it for the steadicam look when walking over rough terrain such as the Darwin Falls hike using the Z10K. I just finished correcting video shot in Belize where it was all handheld and using "Rock Steady" Vibrations wobble with avoid Border settings and it looks near tripod settings. If I don't use the vibrations wobble correction ( aka CMOS fix) the video will have horizontal lines vibrate like a plucked guitar string, even with the Z10K and the TD10 clips.

Now, about the competitor, Edius. If I did bring that tool in, I cannot see me going back to grade school as an editor, starting all over again. After 15 years working with Vegas Pro and it's Sonic Foundry predecessor, even teaching it to student editors who worked for my company, I don't want to give up all the years of training and experience. Frankly, I see those who do embrace it have little advanced editing experience with Vegas, the original 3D editor, or are experienced editors but had an incentive because Vegas didn't support their favored camcorder, the JVC TD1. Edius offered them a much better way than dealing with all the convoluted pre processing. So, for that advantage, they made the choice and began the learning curve. I don't have that incentive. I may check out the trial Bob suggested for this split L/R and use edius as a utility, but there will have to be some major game changer with Vegas Pro for me to switch to Edius. Sorry, Barry, you won't be earning your commission from a sale to me on this one. 15 years of experience with Vegas Pro is too much to lose. :)

You know it wasn't too many years ago that my peers were all trying to get me to buy Avid. Then a half dozen years later, to get with the real editors and go Final Cut Pro. OK, I did try FCP at the pro level and put $5000 into an FCP system. I tried to learn it and discovered it was so isolated in the APPLE world, I had too many problems in my story board that even the experts told me I needed to adjust the story so FCP could handle the editing. I hired an FCP editor who came with great resume and ended up firing him as a complete hack 6 weeks later after he cost me a client. He blamed it on the client's complex story. I did recover by starting all over on Vegas Pro and finished the project in a week. I sold the computer and FCP package to some newby wanting to go into business but insisted using a Mac and FCP because he was a PC hater. He closed his business after only one year. The point is, I have tried the competitors and they don't have the flexibility for MY needs that Vegas Pro does. VP is not perfect, but it keeps getting better.

You know, maybe a letter to Mercalli programmers would be in order asking them to support 3D m2ts files. That would solve the problem. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,215 Posts
Wolfgang- do you know if Vegas Pro can batch render multiple timeline selections to produce a number of files unattended? That might be one solution to streamlining the process.
There are scripts in Vegas that will allow that I think.


Have you tried the Vegas internal stabilizer - what is a Mercalli version too?


I tend to avoid Mercalli - since my experience was not so good with stabilizing - at least not with interlaced footage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Don, I definitely like Mercalli, however it has many complexities. The way it behaves with some camcorders, may not be the way it might behave with others using the same settings-IMO. It is certainly very scene and lighting dependant also. I think it is capable of nicely stabilizating virtually anything, but certainly not with as much of a one size fits -almost- all ability that Edius seems to have. It just means that it will require a lot more trial and error learning curve to master it. That's OK with me too. Hey, we're retired, and have time on our hands! But, to me, all these programs are just tools, no different than the ones I have in that big red tool chest of drawers in the garage. I reach for the tool that will be the easiest and most efficient for the task at hand. For most things, the Edius tool will be the easiest and most efficient one, for some the Mercalli tool will be required. Definitely, no buyers remorse there. For you, if you think that Edius will offer a few new tools you can use to make your work more efficient, then get it, if not, then no. You're obviously very skilled at using Vegas- your main, favored tool. This isn't an all or nothing situation just more tools.

By the way, I couldn't agree more about that Rock Steady setting. That one is the ultimate in image stabilization. Close as you can get to a tripod. Simply AMAZING!

As for getting Mercalli to support 3D .m2ts files- .3D .mp4 also, please- it might be worth a try to lobby them. But, the way I look at the 3D editing situation is that, we are sort of red headed step children, are few and far between, and none of these people will probably go too far out of there way to help us- boo-hoo!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,971 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Well, I'm not against buying Edius if I think it can be used for something really necessary, like I do with PD13 using it for just authoring 3D menus when I want to make a 3D BD. It basically replaces my DVD Architect which I haven't used in several years.

But I repeat, I can't see myself using it as a basic editor. Too much invested in Vegas Pro. And just because we're retired, I know I don't have all that free time on my hands. We continue to joke around here that we can't figure out how we ever had any time to work a job as we're so busy with retirement projects, travel, and keeping the passive income flowing.

Besides, buying Apple watches for us is higher on the priority list next month than buying Edius. :) So I better get back to work, or play, or whatever you want to call it. :)


Back OT- I scrapped the Mercalli rock stable setting for the latest YT video, Altun Ha, since it didn't look right. Reverted back to a lessor stable setting and then benefited with wider angle scenes and less crop. Basically I used Mercalli for correcting image blurs on the pans. I do spend more time experimenting with Mercalli than I would like. If I can free up some time I really should take Bob's suggestion and try a trial run. BUT, I now have a video that has a bunch of left right left minor pans, back like handheld look. It was a trade-off. I did use a monopod so the vertical movement was non existent at least.

Meanwhile, Thanks Wolfgang for the idea on scripts. I forgot all about Vegas scripts. I'll do some research in that direction. But, last I tried Vegas stabilize it was nowhere near as good as Mercalli. Worked much like the crap they do on You Tube. Plus, I really like how Mercalli fixes the SMOS errors on pans and tilts. The video never goes out of focus on pans and tilts with Mercalli. ( Wobble / Vibrations correction setting) Everytime I try a test without it, I always end up going back to it even though it adds greatly to rendering analysis time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,965 Posts
Bob- I have yet to see an example of Edius stabilization before and after of 3D video.

As I said, this is not about dealing with Nabi where the left and right are already separate, ( same with Gopro 3D system) the specific question is how to more efficiently separate the 3D m2ts file from the camcorder into left right file pairs to use with Mercalli.
I recently posted a comparison of stabilization, showing the original video, the Mercalli trial, and Edius - from an original TD1 clip. I think it was in the Vegas thread. I shrank them all down and ran them in one video. It was 2D, for simplicity sake. The results were very similar between Mercalli and Edius. I'll try to find that link and post it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,965 Posts
Bob- I have yet to see an example of Edius stabilization before and after of 3D video.

As I said, this is not about dealing with Nabi where the left and right are already separate, ( same with Gopro 3D system) the specific question is how to more efficiently separate the 3D m2ts file from the camcorder into left right file pairs to use with Mercalli.
I have the JVC specific version of this program from Pixela. It comes free with the JVC HMZ1 camcorder and works only with its clips. It does a great job of splitting left/right pairs quickly and with virtually no loss of quality. Unfortunately, this software without the camera is $800. :eek:

The much cheaper choice is MVC to AVI. I used it in my early days of editing 3D.

Of course, there's Edius, which also works well but takes a lot longer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Not to muddy the waters, but I just received this email. Can crossgrade to this. Contains a full version of Mercalli V4 and New Blue Premium. It also does 3D and bluray. http://www.magix.com/us/video-pro-x...x7-music-maker-movie-score-edition/functions/
Looks kind of interesting. A bit vague on 3D. It mentions SBS but doesn't say if full or half frame. No mention of any MVC or any other muxed options. It would be nice to have more info about all this. It does have a free trial so maybe worth a look. It does appear to be real Quick Sync friendly. Would you like to volunteer to be our guinea pig here and report back? :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Hello I am French and I always read with pleasure.
I know Magix Pro and I have the version of X6.
3D not fault it has any output options
MVC, Side by side 50% and 100%
The X6 version, I am stabilizer Mercalli 2.
I use it mainly for my Fujifilm Real 3D W3 3D clips
I do not use stabilizer with the clips of my TD10E.
I also like Vegas Pro 13 software, Cyberlink PowerDirector 13 and Pinnacle Studio 18
The best stabilizer in 3D is Vegas Pro 13 then Mercalli 2 and PowerDirector.
Pinnacle 18, the stabilizer does not deal with 3D.

I also small camcorder Sony Bloggie 3D, which is equipped with a CMOS. The format and side by side 50%. The best results are with stabilisatio Vegas.
Best Regards
Jacques Mariaud
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,965 Posts
Hi, Jacques, and welcome to the thread. Any info you have on these 3D packages is most welcome.

I'm not sure if you're saying that Magix Pro X6 has MVC output, or not. It sounds like they don't from the ad I saw. Sounds like it has SbS and anaglyph, with the ability to burn either of those formats to Blu-ray. Can you verify exactly which formats it will burn to disc.

Several of us are using the stabilizer built into Edius. IIRC, Don Landis isn't a big fan of the stabilizer in Vegas, but likes Edius and Mercalli.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Good evening Bob
For us in France Magix is fairly well established.
Outside my Sony TD10, I have small camcorders, Fujifilm W3, Aipteck 3D Sony Bloggie 3D camcorders for these I use the stabilizer Mercalli Version 2.
These small camcorders follow me everywhere and it's like a pen.
Sure, I prefer to work with the TD10 with a monopod.
4K UHD 2D I just equip myself with the camera Panasonic LUMIX DMC-FZ1000.
I hope to buy another one for a rig and making 3D documentary.
I started reading about the synchronizers. The rig will be with a foundation without glass.
For installation in UHD, I use Magix Pro X6 or Vegas Pro 13.
For 3D 4K UHD currently not MVC but my files are rendered Side by side 50% (only one test with PowerDirector 2D to 3D)
Best Regards
Jacques Mariaud
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
Good Evening
The VMC Magix file is identical to the Sony TD10 files (.m2ts multistream).
This is not an MVC same file in Vegas
Blu ray menu is 2D and the introduction movie
Best Regards
Jacques
See PJ
Jacques, unfortunately I don't understand what the French version of those 3D output formats says, but am wondering about the one that says MVC. Is it similar to what Power Director calls MVC?
Also, can that format be used to burn bluray in 720 60p or 1080 24p?
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top