[Health Nut]

What is there not a option for "Two-mono" !!!!!


Why on earth would I not want to use TWO-MONO for 5.0 or 5.1? (rhetorical question)


The cabling would be hideous for me otherwise! To think that you could not send a "two-mono" signal and connect both subwoofers to two 861 XLR analog outputs is absurd! Please tell me that I have misunderstood the sales representative.


The most popular and BENEFICIAL configuration for 5.1 when using two subwoofers, is to have them work TOGETHER! They should handle the LFE channel and/or the summed bass information TOGETHER! This splits the workload evenly between both subwoofers.


I am using five Nautilus 802 speakers and would use a crossover point around 55Hz for both home theater and music. With 5.0 music, both subwoofers would work as a unit!

(side by side in a corner).


Stereo subs makes no sense in a 5.0 or 5.1 movie/music. It is nice that you include that option, however, please tell me that

I don't have to use a bunch of y-cables, when you have extra JACKS on the OA12 cards!!!!! It makes a huge difference to me.


In my case, I would have to make one XLR feed FOUR XLR inputs (2 on each subwoofer). It is reasonable to have a cable split into

2 ends, and use two of these cables. However, I would have to make three Y cables and a custom messy XLR cabling solution...


----- Original Message -----

From: Health Nut

To: [email protected]

Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 3:34 PM

Subject: URGENT: 861 with 2 Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofers



Dear Gentlemen,


I am interested in purchasing a Meridian 861, however, I have some 'problems' or at least considerations that need answers.


First of all, I downloaded your 861 configuration utility. My system consists of the following:


Five Nautilus 802 speakers

Five Bryston 7BST monoblocks (XLR)

Two Velodyne HGS-18 subwoofers (L,R XLR inputs on each subwoofer)


Here is one of my problems:


I want to hook up both Velodyne Subwoofers in mono mode. I am VERY upset to think that I would have to use multiple Y-cables to achieve such a configuration.


I was told that I would not be able to plug both subwoofers via XLR to the 861. You can provide stereo subwoofers, but you cannot provide two mono connections? ABSURD!


First of all the HGS-18 reccomend that both the Left and Right XLR input is used, even if mono. I already would have to make

a y-cable for each subwoofer, to connect the single XLR on the 861 to the left and right of the subwoofer. That would have been fine.

But I was told that you cannot support 2 connections to the 861 for 2 mono subs! That makes no sense for 5.0 or 5.1!


I have 5 full range speakers. If I wanted to cross over all five channels at 55 Hz for the Nautilus 802 and sum that with the LFE channel. It only makes sense to use two subwoofers to share the workload! Who and the heck would want stereo subs for 5.0 or 5.1 ???? Please tell me I can hook both subwoofers to the 861 and send them the same mono signal without having to resort to

a mangled mess of XLR y-connectors!!!

 

[aerialman]

Health Nut,

I agree that the meridian bass management could benefit from some more flexibility. After reading your post I thought a little about your situation. here is what I would do.


I would use the stereo sub option, place each sub in the best location for its stereo speaker and use one xlr connection to each sub. I think the velodyne subs will work with either the r or l input active. yes, it will be louder if you split the signal into both l and r on each sub, but this is overcome with some added volume on the subs amp/ level settings on the meridian. I favor the simplest possible setup which is why I wouldnt go splitting line level signals unless necessary. If velodyne really insists then just split it.


anyhow, now you have stereo subs when you really wanted 2 monos. but since you have the identical speakers all around tell the meridian you have all large speakers. this will send lfe to all the speakers until it hits the protection point. to get to that you use the meridian calculator to calculate values for your N802 woofers. and plug those numbers into the size place in the setup. this is unique to meridian (so fawr as I know). the processor determines how much bass is coming out of it at a given volume and limits bass to protect the speakers. so at low volumes your subs wouldnt be doing very much. however, if you think not enough bass is going to the subs then make the value smaller. of course this is a variable xover so youll have to experiment at a volume level that is normal for you. Although they are stereo subs, with lfe being a mono channel the deep bass should get pretty evenly split.


or you could tell the meridian you have all small speakers and set the xover to your choice (its variable from 30- (i think) 120hz in 1hz steps) but now Im not sure if it will send lfe to the mains or only to the subs.


- jerry


[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited November 30, 1999).]

 

[sspears]

why not make a list of all the features you would like to see for bass management.


and I mean a list of what and why.


There is a separate meridian discussion site:
www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb554699&TL=943871940


The navigation sucks, but they do read the posts.


I have started a thread on there called "better bass management". But no one has really responded.


If you your requests to this site, I will copy and repost over there. (i do not know if they read this site.)


[This message has been edited by sspears (edited November 30, 1999).]


[This message has been edited by sspears (edited November 30, 1999).]


[This message has been edited by sspears (edited November 30, 1999).]

 

[aerialman]

Stacey,

thanks for that link. I didnt know there was a meridian discussion group out there. I checked it out- I think your ideas for improving bass management are right on.


- jerry

 

[Health Nut]

> HealthNut, why not just redirect the 80->120 Hz information from the LFE track to a > second speaker so your sub would not have > to reproduce them? That would seem to

> achieve exactly the effect you are after.


That is the most favorable option in how to deal with an LFE channel. It doesn't have anything to do with my arguement, nor does it achieve the best case scenerio) but I agree this is the best LFE solution. The problem is that all processsors differ in regards to what they can do with the LFE track. Most processors provide the ability to redirect the LFE to the mains, but do

not actually allow you to set a crossover point for the LFE channel as you mention. We all know that the LFE track is a discrete track that contains approximately 20-120 Hz info. The question is what processor allows one to set a crossover for the LFE channel specifically.


From what I understand the Meridian 861 does allow one the ability to determine a crossover point for the LFE channel itself,

rerouting only the HP part of the LFE track to *all* main speakers (that is what Meridian told me), while at the same time having the ability to set all other speakers to small and sending the LP of the five main speakers to the subwoofer.


For example:

The 861 is the only processor that I am aware of, that allows one to set a crossover point for the LFE channel AND still send

the LP information from speakers set to small to the subwoofer. I need to clarify the above with Meridian a little further...


Ideally, I could set a crossover point on the LFE track itself to 50 Hz, while also setting the five Nautilus 802 speakers

to a 50 Hz crossover point. That way everything, including the LFE track is crossed at 50 Hz. I called Theta several

times over the past year, and they caimed that you could not set a crossover point for the LFE channel itself. I need to discuss this further with Meridian...


BTW I plan on using the 2 subs in LEFT/RIGHT mode and put one in each corner. I already rearranged the equipment. I'm just waiting on the second HGS-18 (and the 861 in another month).


Can anyone clarify?

 

[sspears]

With the 561, 565, 568, and 861 you have the option of setting the LFE xover at either 80 or 120 Hz.


Not sure what it does with the info above 80 Hz.

 

[aerialman]

Stacey,

Im not sure how you do this with the 861. I never saw an option for LFE xover- can you explain? I apologize in advance if I somehow missed a really basic setup feature.


- Jerry

 

[sspears]

Its been a while since I read the docs.


The way they used to be, before you select sub xover, was by saying you had an LFE or mono sub for 5.1 sources. If you said LFE, the xover was 120 Hz, mono was 80 Hz. Now it is user selectable 30 - 150 Hz. That is probably not the same thing.


So, it looks like I was wrong. Sorry about that.

 

[aerialman]

Stacey,

thanks. I didnt even realize they had this option. I have mine set up as one-mono for all 3 options. I suppose for 5.1 I could simply say one-LFE and that would mean no lfe would go to the mains? thats very interesting. Im gonna double check my setup later.. thanks! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


happy holidays


Jerry

 

[Health Nut]

HEY!


Here is the deal. I talked with Meridian yeastersay again. I still need to clarify this, however, this is the deal: DAMN!

I just realized something. Nonetheless, let me continue.


Supposedly, setting the subwoofer choice to "ONE-LFE" allows one to redirect the High Pass of the LFE to all 5 speakers at the crossover point provided under the crossover section of the speakers setup utility for "5.1 crossover" If one chooses 50 Hz for the 5.1 crossover, and the chooses ONE-LFE (under Layout), the LFE will get crossed at 50 Hz, sending the HP to all five speakers, and keep the LP to the subwoofer.

IF TRUE THAT WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO DEAL WITH THE LFE INFO! This guaranteees that my subs won't be playing the higher frequency Information of the LFE track. Th only problem is that I just realized the setting was for ONE-LFE... I don't see a TWO-LFE choice? I need to call Meridian again... I'll beat there ear until I have it all figured out and report back. If you guys can do the same, that would be great.


Thanks!

 

[aerialman]

Health Nut,

yes! that makes perfect sense. I will try this setup a little later and I will report back with the result. I think that makes perfect sense! I will use the same dd trailer for verification.



OK- I tried all the variations I could think of and all, with the exception of no 5.1 sub- resulted in the lfe clearly going to the sub- this was easily verifiable because I just observed the woofer on one of my mains. When I discussed my setup with meridian they said that the xovers are for any speakers set to small. I couldnt tell a difference between a mono sub and lfe sub set up. the instructions hint (they do not explain very well) that if you want a sub to handle LFE then select the mono- lfe choice. Im leaving my setup at mono sub for everything. I think you wll be best served with the stereo sub option.


I will contact meridian on monday to see if they can shed some light on this.


- Jerry



[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited December 04, 1999).]

 

[aerialman]

Health Nut,

actually Im not sure thats entirely accurate. From my experience with the 861, I know I can set bass management one of two ways. The first is designate speakers as small and then use the user defined xover or designate speakers as large and then use a meridian variable xover thats designed to protect my speakers and hence re route all low freq info to the sub.



Which brings me to my suggestion for meridian- allow the user the option of including LFE info with speakers designated as large or not. I noticed on the dolby trailer before Star Wars SE ac-3 laserdisc that all the deep rumble info was coming from my sub- I have my mains set to large and the volume wasnt tremendous. In this setup you wouldnt need a separate lfe xover since the lfe would be part of the signal going to the mains and that would get xovered at the same point.


Before I got the 861 I was all worried about how to set it up, and it took a little creative thinking (not too much http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ) but after some time I got it set up and now I just think its wonderful! The only real tricky setup issue Ive had is getting the lip sync just right- I wish discs like AVIA and VE provided a lip sync test.


- Jerry

 

[aerialman]

After some more playing, I settled on using large for the mains, even though they wont roll their bass off to the sub, because the center gets its bass summed from the mains in trifield and the bass is then channeled to the sub at the lower frequencies. I bumped the xover for logic and 5.1 to 65hz and for music its at 58hz. it sounds amazing this way!- after all thats what its all about.


- Jerry

 

[Deniz Mutlu]

2- designating the sub as "one-mono" automatically xovers the center at 80hz for 5.1 purposes- if that speaker is set to large. I believe designating the center to small allows you to use the variable xover.


3- designating the sub as "one-lfe" means that ONLY the lfe goes to the sub- and the center gets xovered at 120hz and the remainder (Low pass) goes to the mains.


==============================================

I wonder if the built in sine sweep generator crosses over the signal to the appropriate settings of any speaker, or does it disregard the xover and give you the entire sweep?


I have all but my side speakers set to large full range and a dedicated sub for the centre (signal split from the centre out). When I engage the sine sweep, the centre sub plays all the low frequency signals down to I think 16hz.


I'll have to try the Stereophile disc with the test tones in Trifield with just the centre sub on and see what happens.

 

[aerialman]

I put some time in last night with the meridian and the low frequency tests on AVIA. Heres what I found.


1- no matter what subwoofer setting I designated I could not get the lfe track to be played through the mains. I was hoping some setup would allow for this. I could get the lfe to come through the mains with no sub.


2- designating the sub as "one-mono" automatically xovers the center at 80hz for 5.1 purposes- if that speaker is set to large. I believe designating the center to small allows you to use the variable xover.


3- designating the sub as "one-lfe" means that ONLY the lfe goes to the sub- and the center gets xovered at 120hz and the remainder (Low pass) goes to the mains.


4- designating speakers as large means they handle the low frequencies and they never roll off to the sub. even with the protection circuit- I tried a value of 1 and no bass went to the sub. If you use trifield the bass that the center handles goes to the sub. the protection circuit just stops low frequencies from being produced by those speakers.


5- even though the center (if set to large) gets xovered at 80/120hz for 5.1, for music there is no xover at all- and if youre using a mono sub it doesnt allow you to employ the protection circuit.


I hope that Meridian makes some changes to how bass management is handled.


I found that the best solution for my setup was to designate all the speakers as small and to xover everything at 55hz. my small rears (they work for my space but they are definately the weak link) can go down to around 80hz so theres a little gap- but better than before when I was told by Meridian to set them to large and use a really low protection number- the bass just was never used! Now even though theres a gap the sub will take over- and for movies (which is all I really use the rears for anyhow) this gives you more impact. My mains can go down to around 30hz but my room has a depression around 50hz and my sub has a parametric eq which allows me to increase that range and even out the response a little. So the 55hz xover there works pretty well. the center can do around 53hz to 55 works there also.



I havent had a chance to watch a movie or listen to music at full volume yet (very late in an apartment) but I will today and I will try putting the mains back at large.


Im writing this from memory, and I could have mis understood something so please let me know if Im doing anything wrong.


- Jerry


[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited December 06, 1999).]

 

[Health Nut]

I just had another lengthy discussion with Norman Steinke at Meridian.


Here is the simple truth according to Norman:


If you pick 50 Hz as a crossover point for 5.1 crossover, you will get 50Hz low pass information to your subwoofer for the LFE track *and* any speaker set to small analog, regardless of the settings under LAYOUT.


Using left-right under layout gives me the advantage of having stereo subs when in 2.0 music. While in 5.1, using left -right basically will do the same thing as a TWO-LFE

setting (if they had such a setting). However, the advantage of left-right vs

'TWO-LFE' is that I can send each subwoofer different time delay information. If I have one in each corner or side-by side, this would not make a difference in delay since they would both be equi-distant from the listening position. However, some people prefer to set subs according to the rule of thirds, or various other positions that may not have both subs equi-distant from the listening position. Left-right would allow one to set the distances seperately and therefore the appropriate delay for each subwoofer.


Here is my scenerio and what should happen:


I have five Nautilus 802 speakers with two HGS-18 subwoofers, one in each corner.


(I was considering two side by side in one corner, but decided that I had subwoofer headroom to spare. Besides, when you pick left-right, the LP of the LFE gets divided evenly between the left and right subwoofer).


I now choose a 50 Hz crossover point for "5.1 crossover" in the speaker setup utility. Next I choose "Two-left,right" under speakers/layout.


If I choose large analog for all 5 speakers, then all five speakers will be playing full range plus the LFE info above 50 Hz.


If I choose small analog for all 5 speakers, the speakers will still play the LFE info above 50 Hz, but now the subwoofers will be playing bass from the LP of the LFE *plus* the LP (at 50Hz) of the other speakers set to small analog.


However, we have a front left and a front right subwoofer. I imagine that the LP information gets summed together and divided evenly between the left subwoofer and the right subwoofer, with appropriate level (volume) adjustments factored in.


For 2.0 CD music I get stereo subwoofers.

In some ways it would be nice to see these two subwoofers share the load of the same signal, but stereo subs also have an advantage.

 

[aerialman]

Health Nut,

unless my unit has some kind of flaw, I have to disagree with what they told you. I tried the avia lfe track sweep test and there was absolutely no lfe present in any channel except the sub- this was with speakers set to large or small. When I get a chance, I will call Meridian to discuss this with them, perhaps theres something going on that I am unaware of.


- Jerry

 

[Health Nut]

Jerry,


Please call them. They have been very consistent! Please try various crossover settings with the LFE test track on the AVIA disc! Let me know! Please try 40, 60, 80, 100! Let me know if the LFE track is capable of being affected via the crossover 5.1 crossover setting. Hopefully, setting the crossover to 30,40,50 Hz eliminates a lot of the higher frequency compnents of the test sweep compared to the 80,100,120 Hz settings.

 

[aerialman]

Health Nut,

thats a great idea. I cant try it tonight but I will try it tomorrow and I will call them also. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


- Jerry

 

[aerialman]

Later last night I tried all the xovers (30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, even 150) with small setting, with the setting as sub: one-mono; sub: one-lfe, etc and the bottom line is this:


either my 861 is flawed somehow


the avia disc is wrong


or no lfe goes to the mains, ever (unless you say no sub)


there is a track on avia that is only lfe, if any lfe was supposed to go to the mains it would be obvious, but the woofer on the mains stays very still, while the sub is getting all the action.


I will call meridian later today when I have more time and I will see if they can explain these observations


on the plus side, I did find the optimal xover for my system based on listening tests using the avia low frequency sweep- 52hz. go figure.


- Jerry


[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited December 08, 1999).]