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Discussion Starter #1
I'm currently in a big dilemma where I need to decide between MF41 and XA10. At first, these two cameras may sound apart so much, for my situation, they are not (and I'm sure there are others like me). I have seen a lot of people asking the difference between G10 and MF4XX since they both have the same chip and the processor with different lenses. To this date, I am yet to see an actual comparison between these two cameras (i.e. from people who own both of them, not just comparing them on paper).


I have had the XA10 for about a week or so and MF4XX for a few days. My use case is as follows:


- Shoot almost exclusively indoors, so low light performance is a must.

- Shoot exclusively family videos with my baby daughter.


I'm a bit flexible in my budget, but only if the price different makes sense. I initially bought the XA10. This was my first pure camcorder, to this date, I always used DSLRs, so at first I was quite disappointed with the image quality (comparing to prime lenses in my DSLR), then I basically wanted to see the next best thing to XA10, which is MF41 (G10 doesn't count as both G10 and XA10 are pretty much the same cameras minus the handle).


Before I get to the facts, I want to mention that this is a continuous review. I'm expecting to receive my DM-100 microphone for the MF41, and once I get that I will do more comparisons between the two cameras over the weekend and keep updating this thread.

Where both cameras are equal:


- Chip & processor, the most important pieces of the camcorder is the same in both cameras. Furthermore, this CMOS PRO chip that is used in them is used in $4000 professional camcorders, so it's as good as it gets.


- Both accept 2 SD cards as extra and have internal memory (32 GB vs 64 GB, but really you never reach those levels).


- Both have HDMI output.


- Both allow things like white balancing, exposure setting, AGC limit, face tracking, point focus, filters, cinema mode, special shooting modes (like portrait, low light, etc), both allow audio mixing (line + mic), both have almost identical menus in all camera settings (except the shooting modes).


- Both have a viewfinder that's the same size and same resolution. Both viewfinders allow you to adjust the resolution/sharpness of the viewfinder for your eye.

Where XA10 has the lead


- Much bigger and wider lens. 30.6 mm vs 43.6 mm. That's quite the difference. It's almost %30 more area coverage. Indoors, it makes a huge difference. It's such a rip-off what Canon does with MF41 when Panasonic with a similar camera has 28mm lens. The wide converter is total crap, it's huge and heavy and doesn't work well when zooming in. So if you have wide FOV requirements, MF41 is out. Even for me, some shots have been pretty difficult so far, I'm finding myself holding the camera above my head in the air and turn the flip screen upside down and record like that.


- Much better LCD screen. The LCD screen of the MF41 is sufficient, but where it's not enough is in situations where you need to adjust exposure. While MF41 has no full manual mode, it has exposure adjustment, which does the same thing as manually changing gaing, shutter, aperature. The problem is, in low light situations (like shooting at night outside on the street), MF41s LCD is totally useless. You have to record a clip, watch it in a computer, go back and adjust. Once you do this for 2 months and memorize all the lighting situations with proper exposure numbers, then you can get away with it. I think that's a big limitation.


- More manual controls. First things first, once you set aperature or shutter speed in MF41 in Tv or Av mode (that's all you have apart from P, so 3 modes in total), you are done. There is no way to change them. XA10 works like a DSLR. In any mode, including Tv, Av, and M, you can change the appropriate setting at any time. That's a big plus. That being said, MF41 has exposure like I mentioned above. It's really the same thing for home videos, unless you are recording a mini documentary and you have a degree in videography. In addition XA10 has BLC (back light correction) mode which is quite useful.


- Image quality. Yes, there is difference in image quality between XA10 and MF41. I took maybe 200 samples in 2 days, took the same footage with the same FOV or with the same distance (2 different things). Did all my tests first in auto mode then in P mode in manual to be fair (that's the only real way to compare the lenses). You can't expect a lens that measures 1/3 in size of the other one to perform the same. You can put them side by side, one of them says "I mean serious business" the other one says "daddy daddy where is my candy", its that different. That being said, is the different in quality visible to the naked eye? NO. You have to watch the same footage, over and over and over again, pixel peeping, a foot from the TV, then only in certain conditions the difference is obvious. In low light situations, there is absolutely no difference. When one has noise, the other one has as well. In fact, its more difficult to manage XA10 than it is to MF41. With MF41, you have exposure dial and that's it, with MF41, if you are in manual, you have 3 settings, plus BLC to worry about.


- Focus ring. Yes, this is very useful. But only so if you are working with prepared shots on a tripod. I honestly don't see myself using the focus ring when shooting my daughter. I might use it if I'm shooting birds at the beach from a mile away, but then the MF41's auto focus is more than enough. I can see this ring being useful at night, but then again at full zoom in both cameras, at pitch dark at night after 9 pm with just street lighting, auto focus did an amazing job.


- The handle. This is very useful for low shots and carrying the camera. MF41 is also easy to hold but you loose about a foot of real estate, i.e. you need to bend over more and its very uncomfortable.


That's really it. To me, MF41 is worth $300, and XA10 is $1000, canon is selling them 2x of what they are worth and ripping people off. A 7D is worth $1,600, it has far more usage and resale value and return in image quality and functionality than G10/XA10 ever will. These camcorders will be obsolote in 6 months with new models coming out. You could take that money and easily spend it on a Canon L lens or a better camera body, but then, you have no choice and you need to record video. And you also have no choice but get Canon, because guess what, they are the best (for my needs), and they know it, and they are ripping people off.


I still haven't decided if I should keep the XA10 or MF41. I am waiting for my DM-100. If you noticed, I left the audio bit out, I currently have AT875 XLR for the XA10 and its just simply mind blowing. I want to see how DM-100 compares. Sound is %50 of the video to me and if it sucks, then there you go my decision will be easier, but still not 100% clear. There is a massive difference between the two cameras in terms of price, but quality/functionality wise not so much. To be frank, all the settings XA10 has in its $2,000 body has been in $500 DSLRs (like T2i). I honestly never thought the full manual in video recording was a feature that I could have only after shelling out $2,000.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I still don't have my mic but I took both of the cameras for a field test just now, shot various videos outside. Here are my findings:


- Image Quality : It's nearly impossible to figure out which footage is shot from which camera. I showed the videos to my wife randomly and I had her show them to me randomly, and it's simply impossible to tell. Even pausing the videos in between and pixel peeping, you can't tell. The problem is, while I tried to shoot the same thing with both cameras, I never could, a real test would be putting both cameras side by side on a tripod and shoot various things outside under various lighting conditions. That's something I'm going to do once I get my DM-100 mic with my wife.


- LCD/Viewfinder : LCD in the MF41 is completely USELESS. I cannot say that strongly enough, here in bold letters USELESS. The only thing it's good for is for you to see what you are shooting. You cannot adjust the video settings with it (like exposure, aperature, shutter speed). Thank god I have the viewfinder and that's actually quite useful in bright light (shot these right around noon when it was the brightest outside). The XA10's LCD is like a computer screen. Its as if you are watching your own video in a computer screen. It's very very useful. But then again, you need to ask this question to yourself : will I ever manually adjust exposure/etc outside? It's very difficult, unless you are working on prepared shots, the light changes drastically as you move around. The viewfinder for the XA10 is much more useful for manual adjustment though. Because XA10 has this custom spinning ring type of button which you can use to change all the settings, so you can look through the viewfinder while changing all the settings, it's very useful. In addition, when you are outside, and you want to modify the settings, the MF41's exposure setting is just useless. You have got to have the manual mode in the XA10. With MF41, you set aperature, then you are done, the problem is, the minute you turn around and zoom to the brooklyn bridge, you now need to change the aperature, what are you going to do? Stop the video? XA10 is like a pure DSLR, you can change everything.


ND : XA10 has NDs past aperature 4.0. They are quite useful and give a very good effect under bright light. MF41 doesn't have any of this.


Focus Ring : I gotta hand it to the XA10 here. If you are outside, zooming on something, that focus ring saves your life in the view finder. Again, would you do something like this? Most of us wouldn't. If I want to zoom in on something, I have my L zoom lens for my DSLR, and that's what I do (take pictures). I honestly don't see myself zooming in with a camcorder so much that you need the focus ring.


Portability : My god, I love the MF41 when it comes to this! XA10 is so much work! It won't even fit in the camcorder case (I have SC-200), so you have to remove the shotgun mic, then it barely fits in to the case. Everytime you want to shoot something, you need to assemble the whole thing again. MF41 is just amazing, it fits into one of the compartments of the camcorder case, it's ridiculous!


I also would like to mention, there are some shots (both shot under P mode) in my apartment, during daytime, where the XA10 just looks much more alive. I really cannot say why. You can see that when you watch the footage from XA10, it's as if its captured right from your own eyes, very vivid, very life like. MF41 looks more artificial. But it's very hard to reproduce, some shots are so identical (like my outdoor ones), you really cannot tell which is which.


So far my tests have been quite amateurish. Once I get my DM-100, I am going to take both of my cameras, put them on a tripod, with my wife's help, take various videos in various conditions and compare them side by side.


By the way, I want to upload my videos to Vimeo, is it true that I can upload 1 video/day? That's a big limitation
 

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First of all: THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT VIDEO SAMPLES. You have both cameras, you cared to start the thread, now where are the videos? You don't need Vimeo, upload to YouTube, it is as good as Vimeo. If you upload 1080p then make sure bitrate is above 15 Mbit/s. And please, do not upload interlaced stuff.


FOV: The HF M4XX seem to have the same lens as the HV20/HV30/HV40/HG10, which is 43mm wide with 43mm thread. Canon reused a lot of old tech this year, like the CMOS HD Pro sensor, which is basically an evolution of the sensor used in the 2007 models. Hundreds of people bought the aforementioned camcorders and shot great content with them, so should not be a real problem. Yes, indoors this lens is not wide enough, but a 0.7 WA adapter widens it 30mm. I have the Raynox DCR 730 0.7 adapter, it is zoom-through, and it will be sharp enough for the Canon. Heck, it is even sharp enough for the Panasonic, see here the video I shot using this adapter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOMDc7TdAzw


Exposure controls: Of course, one CAN change shutter speed or aperture after it has been set. Here is what you do: select Tv mode, set shutter speed, then adjust "Exposure", it will handle aperture/ND/gain automatically. Half-press Photo button, the camera should display aperture value. At least this is how it works for older models. Here is another trick: while Exposure is locked, you cannot change shutter speed (in Tv mode). You need to unlock Exposure (set it to Auto), then you will be able to change shutter speed.


BLC - use Spotlight mode.


What do you mean by lenses being different size? The XA10 has larger lens thread because Canon put iAF sensor inside the threads. The thread size does not say much about the lens size itself.


You don't need a focus ring? This is a perfect reason to get the HF M4XX.


ND: All Canon HD camcorders, at least those that have 1/4-inch and larger sensor, have built-in ND. In Tv mode the camcorder tries to keep lens at F4.0 by adjusting ND (I believe that the HV20 tried to keep F5.6). The good old HF100, which I still have, has 4 stops worth of ND filtering. The ND cannot be controlled manually, but it is there.


All in all, I can see that the HF M41 is a much better fit for your needs. Get a $70 WA adapter and you will be golden.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20898453


First of all: THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT VIDEO SAMPLES. You have both cameras, you cared to start the thread, now where are the videos? You don't need Vimeo, upload to YouTube, it is as good as Vimeo. If you upload 1080p then make sure bitrate is above 15 Mbit/s. And please, do not upload interlaced stuff.


FOV: The HF M4XX seem to have the same lens as the HV20/HV30/HV40/HG10, which is 43mm wide with 43mm thread. Canon reused a lot of old tech this year, like the CMOS HD Pro sensor, which is basically an evolution of the sensor used in the 2007 models. Hundreds of people bought the aforementioned camcorders and shot great content with them, so should not be a real problem. Yes, indoors this lens is not wide enough, but a 0.7 WA adapter widens it 30mm. I have the Raynox DCR 730 0.7 adapter, it is zoom-through, and it will be sharp enough for the Canon. Heck, it is even sharp enough for the Panasonic, see here the video I shot using this adapter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOMDc7TdAzw


Exposure controls: Of course, one CAN change shutter speed or aperture after it has been set. Here is what you do: select Tv mode, set shutter speed, then adjust "Exposure", it will handle aperture/ND/gain automatically. Half-press Photo button, the camera should display aperture value. At least this is how it works for older models. Here is another trick: while Exposure is locked, you cannot change shutter speed (in Tv mode). You need to unlock Exposure (set it to Auto), then you will be able to change shutter speed.


BLC - use Spotlight mode.


What do you mean by lenses being different size? The XA10 has larger lens thread because Canon put iAF sensor inside the threads. The thread size does not say much about the lens size itself.


You don't need a focus ring? This is a perfect reason to get the HF M4XX.


ND: All Canon HD camcorders, at least those that have 1/4-inch and larger sensor, have built-in ND. In Tv mode the camcorder tries to keep lens at F4.0 by adjusting ND (I believe that the HV20 tried to keep F5.6). The good old HF100, which I still have, has 4 stops worth of ND filtering. The ND cannot be controlled manually, but it is there.


All in all, I can see that the HF M41 is a much better fit for your needs. Get a $70 WA adapter and you will be golden.

Very good points, thank you for your post.


I will upload videos when I have something good to show, all of my videos look like crap with me being visible/audible doing stupid stuff in them, they are not "youtube quality"
But yes, it's my plan to do that.


I cannot get that aperature/shutter speed palet to show up. There is no photo button, its on the LCD. When I press it (there is no half pressing it), it takes a picture. I tried holding it, nothing really happens. Does anyone how this works in M4XX?


I didn't know about the ND, I guess if I can change aperature with your way, then I will be able to see the difference.


The wide adapter isn't something I want to do. It looks too big and heavy plus I read it in numerous places if you zoom with that thing, it apparently shows up in the video or becomes obvious.


You didn't comment on the LCD though, even if you are right and I get to change the shutter/aperature, what's the point when you can't see what you are doing in the LCD? This LCD has a worse resolution than those erikson phones from 1995 (sarcasm), I'm pretty sure those controls work and they change the setting properly but without you getting any feedback from the camera, what's point?


That being sad, my initial analysis with the DM-100 is as follows, it doesn't filter the "hiss" as good as the AT875 does. In fact, with and without it, the audio is barely different. The 3 modes on it is useless shotgun/90 degrees/120 degrees/stereo, the 90 degree sounds a bit different not better but that's about it. I think it's a bit of waste of money. For $950, this combination is a bit expensive.


I basically put both cameras side by side, went into a quiet room, and read something from a book. There is worlds of difference between the two. One of them sounds like movies, with no "hiss" and you can hear the person breathing, the other one sounds like I'm talking to a $10 3.5mm microphone.


One thing I'm hoping that can fix this is the manual mic adjustment in M41. I didn't try that yet. It's on automatic. Afterall the XA10 is fully manual and usually set on %30 volume. Once the volume is down on DM-100, I'm not sure what the results will be.


I'm going out now, going to try the cameras out.
 

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Discussion Starter #8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20898453


First of all: THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT VIDEO SAMPLES. You have both cameras, you cared to start the thread, now where are the videos? You don't need Vimeo, upload to YouTube, it is as good as Vimeo. If you upload 1080p then make sure bitrate is above 15 Mbit/s. And please, do not upload interlaced stuff.


FOV: The HF M4XX seem to have the same lens as the HV20/HV30/HV40/HG10, which is 43mm wide with 43mm thread. Canon reused a lot of old tech this year, like the CMOS HD Pro sensor, which is basically an evolution of the sensor used in the 2007 models. Hundreds of people bought the aforementioned camcorders and shot great content with them, so should not be a real problem. Yes, indoors this lens is not wide enough, but a 0.7 WA adapter widens it 30mm. I have the Raynox DCR 730 0.7 adapter, it is zoom-through, and it will be sharp enough for the Canon. Heck, it is even sharp enough for the Panasonic, see here the video I shot using this adapter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOMDc7TdAzw


Exposure controls: Of course, one CAN change shutter speed or aperture after it has been set. Here is what you do: select Tv mode, set shutter speed, then adjust "Exposure", it will handle aperture/ND/gain automatically. Half-press Photo button, the camera should display aperture value. At least this is how it works for older models. Here is another trick: while Exposure is locked, you cannot change shutter speed (in Tv mode). You need to unlock Exposure (set it to Auto), then you will be able to change shutter speed.


BLC - use Spotlight mode.


What do you mean by lenses being different size? The XA10 has larger lens thread because Canon put iAF sensor inside the threads. The thread size does not say much about the lens size itself.


You don't need a focus ring? This is a perfect reason to get the HF M4XX.


ND: All Canon HD camcorders, at least those that have 1/4-inch and larger sensor, have built-in ND. In Tv mode the camcorder tries to keep lens at F4.0 by adjusting ND (I believe that the HV20 tried to keep F5.6). The good old HF100, which I still have, has 4 stops worth of ND filtering. The ND cannot be controlled manually, but it is there.


All in all, I can see that the HF M41 is a much better fit for your needs. Get a $70 WA adapter and you will be golden.

I have read the entire manual, it doesn't say anything about half pressing the photo button or being able to set the aperture or shutter speed other than those initial settings.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20899495


I have read the entire manual, it doesn't say anything about half pressing the photo button or being able to set the aperture or shutter speed other than those initial settings.

The manual had never mentioned this. Sorry, maybe this trick does not work on newer models anymore. I need to get to BestBuy and try it myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20899513


The manual had never mentioned this. Sorry, maybe this trick does not work on newer models anymore. I need to get to BestBuy and try it myself.

I have googled this and also read it on this forum and everyone says that these cameras in fact don't allow you to change those settings.


You said the old cameras were different, I thought this chip was brand new which came out this year, is this an old design? Also does anyone remember what G10/XA10 replaced, were they brand new models?
 

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'That being sad, my initial analysis with the DM-100 is as follows, it doesn't filter the "hiss" as good as the AT875 does. In fact, with and without it, the audio is barely different. The 3 modes on it is useless shotgun/90 degrees/120 degrees/stereo, the 90 degree sounds a bit different not better but that's about it. I think it's a bit of waste of money. For $950, this combination is a bit expensive.


I basically put both cameras side by side, went into a quiet room, and read something from a book. There is worlds of difference between the two. One of them sounds like movies, with no "hiss" and you can hear the person breathing, the other one sounds like I'm talking to a $10 3.5mm microphone.' - DerStig


I lost track a bit of what you are saying here. Is the DM-100 an improvement over the onboard mic?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thronsen /forum/post/20899967


'That being sad, my initial analysis with the DM-100 is as follows, it doesn't filter the "hiss" as good as the AT875 does. In fact, with and without it, the audio is barely different. The 3 modes on it is useless shotgun/90 degrees/120 degrees/stereo, the 90 degree sounds a bit different not better but that's about it. I think it's a bit of waste of money. For $950, this combination is a bit expensive.


I basically put both cameras side by side, went into a quiet room, and read something from a book. There is worlds of difference between the two. One of them sounds like movies, with no "hiss" and you can hear the person breathing, the other one sounds like I'm talking to a $10 3.5mm microphone.' - DerStig


I lost track a bit of what you are saying here. Is the DM-100 an improvement over the onboard mic?

It is better than onboard, but barely. Even outdoors in a windy weather the difference is not worth $150 and the trouble of carrying the mic with you. The XLR on the xa10 is just amazing.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Did some more testing with the recording system of both cameras, here are my findings:


DM-100 : It's absolutely useless if you ask me. It's so hard to to even notice the difference, I record the same thing with the onboard and the external mic, DM-100 sounds a bit different, but I wouldn't classify that as better. Especially, considering it costs $150+, I just wouldn't waste my money on it. If I decide to keep the M41, I am certainly returning it.


Onboard mic : Call me crazy, but M41 sounds much better than XA10 with the inboard mic. It might be because XA10 is more sensitive or because of the way its positioned. But actually with M41 you don't get that much hiss indoors and things like my daughter breathing or talking is more obvious than they are in XA10's onboard mic.


XA10/XLR : There is a world of difference between this XLR and the rest. I'm telling you, you have to be there to hear it. I use my Bose headphones that I use with my iphone when recording, the XLR mic (AT875 in my case) is just amazing.


That being said, the downside of the XLR is you have to manually adjust the microphone valume, worry about ATT yourself. So do you really need it? I don't know, that's for you to answer. It's nice when you are indoors and the camera is on a tripod, but when you are walking around outside, you have to constantly adjust it. Also the more I listen M41, the more I think it sounds "sufficient".
 

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Alright, here is my final review and comparison between these two cameras. In the past few days, I probably read everything there is to read about both of them, including the manuals. I am going to hold on to my XA10 and return the M41 and the DM-100.


M41 is not bad and yes it does have a lot of nice features. A lot of things like white balancing, story mode, filters, decorations, fade effects, zooming, etc can be done with the M41. Problem is, to effectively use those features, you need to have a good LCD monitor which M41 lacks. Like I mentioned many times, the LCD on the M41 is absolute garbage. It only helps you to see what you are shooting and gives you just a basic idea of the surrounding conditions, but it's by no means a good place to adjust your aperature, or white balance, or any of those other things you need to adjust. It does have a manual mode apart from auto, but that manual is really impossible to use, you end up using P mode almost exclusively.


The sound from DM-100 is average at best. It does build on top of the internal microphone of the and I agree that it does sound better. Especially the wind cancelling is good, but definitely nowhere near as good as the XLR mic I used in my XA10. I do want to mention, as I did before, that the price difference between my XLR mic and the DM-100 is around $25. I can't even begin to think how good a professional XLR mic sounds on the XA10, but I wanted to compare apples to apples here, that is prosumer/enthusiast gear in each camera against each other.


The 43.6 mm lens on the M41 is really limiting. I honestly don't see that camera being useful indoors at all. I can never get my daughter's body all in one shot (and she is 28 inches tall!). I always like to record her when she wakes up, and if I go near by her crib, I can either get her chest and head or her legs, not both. I'd have to hold the camera very high (ridiculously high) if I want to get the same shot I would get with the XA10. It's just no match.


M41 fails in many categories, but price is the most important one. At $800, it's ridiculously over priced. Because if you are spending $800 on a camcorder, you are a serious videographer or you at least want the best quality in your videos. That means a wide converter ($150-200), an external mic ($150-200), so that $800 now becomes $1100+. You can take that, pay $200 more and get the G10. Yes you'll still have to buy an external mic (I doubt it, as G10's internal mic filters/settings are very good), but see it as an investment. This camera is the first camera that can shoot like a DSLR (with respect to settings). This is something you can use to shoot motion picture quality videos. Try using peaking with manual focus and you'll see what I'm talking about. I took some shots with that thing last night in candle light that I wouldn't be able to with M41 in a million years, simply because of its focus ring, big LCD, and manual settings.


I can see now why M41 is just not that popular. For an average consumer, it's too expensive, if you are considering this camera, I suggest you get something cheaper, below $500. Even if you get the $600 version that has no viewfinder and built-in memory, you are going to spend at least $80 for an SD card which will bring the price close to the M41.


This camera should have had the wide lens and be priced at $900. It should also have a $1000 version which would have a better LCD. The LCD this thing has is too far away from the LCD of G10. There is such a gap between these two cameras, Canon should have really thought this thru and come up with models that sits between them. If there was a $1000 version, I'm sure it would attract all those Panasonic HS900 customers.
 

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I was looking at the M41 at first but settled on the Panasonic TM90 at well under $500. Wider longer zoom and better IS plus smaller camera sold me. I had them side by side. If the G10 wasn't so expensive I may have gone for that one. I just love the 1080p video though so I may have still picked the TM90. 28mm is a must have for me plus the camera is a lot smaller than the G10.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/0


Alright, here is my final review and comparison between these two cameras. In the past few days, I probably read everything there is to read about both of them, including the manuals. I am going to hold on to my XA10 and return the M41 and the DM-100.


M41 is not bad and yes it does have a lot of nice features. A lot of things like white balancing, story mode, filters, decorations, fade effects, zooming, etc can be done with the M41. Problem is, to effectively use those features, you need to have a good LCD monitor which M41 lacks. Like I mentioned many times, the LCD on the M41 is absolute garbage. It only helps you to see what you are shooting and gives you just a basic idea of the surrounding conditions, but it's by no means a good place to adjust your aperature, or white balance, or any of those other things you need to adjust. It does have a manual mode apart from auto, but that manual is really impossible to use, you end up using P mode almost exclusively.


The sound from DM-100 is average at best. It does build on top of the internal microphone of the and I agree that it does sound better. Especially the wind cancelling is good, but definitely nowhere near as good as the XLR mic I used in my XA10. I do want to mention, as I did before, that the price difference between my XLR mic and the DM-100 is around $25. I can't even begin to think how good a professional XLR mic sounds on the XA10, but I wanted to compare apples to apples here, that is prosumer/enthusiast gear in each camera against each other.


The 43.6 mm lens on the M41 is really limiting. I honestly don't see that camera being useful indoors at all. I can never get my daughter's body all in one shot (and she is 28 inches tall!). I always like to record her when she wakes up, and if I go near by her crib, I can either get her chest and head or her legs, not both. I'd have to hold the camera very high (ridiculously high) if I want to get the same shot I would get with the XA10. It's just no match.


M41 fails in many categories, but price is the most important one. At $800, it's ridiculously over priced. Because if you are spending $800 on a camcorder, you are a serious videographer or you at least want the best quality in your videos. That means a wide converter ($150-200), an external mic ($150-200), so that $800 now becomes $1100+. You can take that, pay $200 more and get the G10. Yes you'll still have to buy an external mic (I doubt it, as G10's internal mic filters/settings are very good), but see it as an investment. This camera is the first camera that can shoot like a DSLR (with respect to settings). This is something you can use to shoot motion picture quality videos. Try using peaking with manual focus and you'll see what I'm talking about. I took some shots with that thing last night in candle light that I wouldn't be able to with M41 in a million years, simply because of its focus ring, big LCD, and manual settings.


I can see now why M41 is just not that popular. For an average consumer, it's too expensive, if you are considering this camera, I suggest you get something cheaper, below $500. Even if you get the $600 version that has no viewfinder and built-in memory, you are going to spend at least $80 for an SD card which will bring the price close to the M41.


This camera should have had the wide lens and be priced at $900. It should also have a $1000 version which would have a better LCD. The LCD this thing has is too far away from the LCD of G10. There is such a gap between these two cameras, Canon should have really thought this thru and come up with models that sits between them. If there was a $1000 version, I'm sure it would attract all those Panasonic HS900 customers.

I added a $16 WA lens to my M41 for indoor shoots. Works well and easy to add/remove. I have the DM-100 and the difference is night and day to me.

The LCD does everything it's supposed to and it's brighter. Handy for outdoors in bright sunlight.


I see lots of claims and opinions but no video posted to give support. Lol.


Apparently you have more money than sense and it shows from your purchase process. Something is useless alright, but it's not the camcorder.
 

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Discussion Starter #17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyman /forum/post/20910776


I added a $16 WA lens to my M41 for indoor shoots. Works well and easy to add/remove. I have the DM-100 and the difference is night and day to me.

The LCD does everything it's supposed to and it's brighter. Handy for outdoors in bright sunlight.


I see lots of claims and opinions but no video posted to give support. Lol.


Apparently you have more money than sense and it shows from your purchase process. Something is useless alright, but it's not the camcorder.


You seriously think a $16 lens will produce the same image quality as a lens thats used in $4000 camcorders? Or do you think a mini shoe mic will sound as good as an XLR one?


All I'm saying is, you will end up spending +$1000 with M41 and have something average. This camera is not meant to be used that way. Please tell me how you adjust aperature in bright day light in that tiny little LCD. Or how you work with exposure without zebras? Peaking - hello? If M41 was $400, I wouldnt care, but $800 is over priced.


Wherever you go, you will see this mentality of people trying to modify something cheap and make it look/work like something thats expensive and has better quality. Cars - people will always mod a civic and race BMW, computers - overclock a $100 AMD and call intel extreme cpu waste of money, and cameras - buy a $500 camcorder and try to turn it into a prosumer one.


If you don't have the financial means, dont push yourself, period. Its not something to be ashamed of - being able to afford the XA10, I'm sure if you had extra cash or if M41 and XA10 were priced same, you would get the XA10 as well.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


You seriously think a $16 lens will produce the same image quality as a lens thats used in $4000 camcorders?

$16 - hardly, but a $70 that I have works just fine. Have you watched my video?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


Or do you think a mini shoe mic will sound as good as an XLR one?

Sure, why not. If it is located on camera, interface type (XLR vs. unbalanced) is not important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


Please tell me how you adjust aperature in bright day light in that tiny little LCD.

It is "aperture", not "aperature". The ability to change aperture has nothing to do with LCD brightness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


Or how you work with exposure without zebras?

I agree, no zebras is a huge downside, I cannot get why Canon insists on omitting zebras on some models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


Peaking - hello? If M41 was $400, I wouldnt care, but $800 is over priced.

See, this is why I am reluctant to sell the HDC-SD600 which I bought for $300, even though I have other cameras ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20912548


If you don't have the financial means, dont push yourself, period. Its not something to be ashamed of - being able to afford the XA10, I'm sure if you had extra cash or if M41 and XA10 were priced same, you would get the XA10 as well.

It is entertaining to see progression from buyer's remorse to convincing yourself that you cannot go lower than the XA10.


Will you post the comparison videos? Not that we don't believe you...


P.S. One can buy a very decent 3-4 year old camcorder on eBay for about $200.
 

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Discussion Starter #19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann /forum/post/20912867


$16 - hardly, but a $70 that I have works just fine. Have you watched my video?

Sure, why not. If it is located on camera, interface type (XLR vs. unbalanced) is not important.

It is "aperture", not "aperature". The ability to change aperture has nothing to do with LCD brightness.

I agree, no zebras is a huge downside, I cannot get why Canon insists on omitting zebras on some models.

See, this is why I am reluctant to sell the HDC-SD600 which I bought for $300, even though I have other cameras ;-)

It is entertaining to see progression from buyer's remorse to convincing yourself that you cannot go lower than the XA10.


Will you post the comparison videos? Not that we don't believe you...


P.S. One can buy a very decent 3-4 year old camcorder on eBay for about $200.

I will post the videos, I am not being lazy, I had some family obligations and forgot about the videos.


Thanks for correcting my grammar, this is the best I can do using iphone.


Regarding your comment about "aperture" and LCD relation, I was merely suggesting that the LCD of this camera is completely useless in situations where you truly need to adjust the exposure by changing shutter speed, aperture, or gain. It doesnt truly reflect the colors and exposure. You have to record, play it back in a computer/tv and try again. This is probably why there is no full manual mode, as it would be impossible to manually adjust these things the way you can in G10/XA10.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20913329


I will post the videos, I am not being lazy, I had some family obligations and forgot about the videos.

No rush, it is good to know that you have something to compare. Yesterday I returned home from a weekend getaway, and it took 3 hours to make a 3-minute video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerStig /forum/post/20913329


Regarding your comment about "aperture" and LCD relation, I was merely suggesting that the LCD of this camera is completely useless in situations where you truly need to adjust the exposure by changing shutter speed, aperture, or gain. It doesnt truly reflect the colors and exposure. You have to record, play it back in a computer/tv and try again. This is probably why there is no full manual mode, as it would be impossible to manually adjust these things the way you can in G10/XA10.

Switch to Cinema Mode, and the camcorder will strive harder to preserve highlights, leaving more room for error. It is not a substitute for zebras, but it does reduce clipping.
 
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