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Discussion Starter #21
useless measurement?


If a tweeter noise levels changes +5 or 6 dB from connecting to the DCX then its not usless. Its real life usage fact!


As I said your incorrect POV is noted and we can move on, I only care about REAL issues in room and everyone else in the world sides with me on the "hot" nature of the DCX outputs. See many, many forums on the issue...go argue with them if you have some pickle stuck up your butt about this.


Stick your head back into the Aussie dust bowl and ignore all of us, hell you have never proved a damn thing with real measurements, go out show me the measurements then you can post in my thread again



Nor do I want this to be a DCX vs MiniDSP fight. To end it sure the DCX is amazing....whoppie, I own 3 of them already!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19302947


useless measurement?


If a tweeter noise levels changes +5 or 6 dB from connecting to the DCX then its not usless. Its real life usage fact!

Yes, because you measured your system with a device not set up to do noise floor measurements. However, you keep prattling on about how the DCX is noisy, when it's not, because you're using it incorrectly. Show me the measurements of the actual noise floor of the DCX not your system or I will call you on this every time. You just don't seem to be able to see the difference. Just because you are not using it optimally is not a fault of the unit itself.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Again, I have my measurements and adding the DCX to the connection the noise floor on any Tweeter increases 5dB. You are simply being a pedantic fool here on your term "noise Floor"....you do not understand what Im posting and you are picking a term and being pedantic about it. The HISS is louder...you can define that all you want but the measurements Im doing are the RIGHT measurements for me beause that is simply NOISE!!!


You call that useless then fine prove prove it with your own data and measurements. Posting that Im just wrong is meaningless to me. Im not alone either, you need to go read some of the discussions about the hot outputs and stop being stubborn. Again, I will say that if you are not going to post meausrements and your own tests on the product then do not post your opinion in my threads on it again (You never shut up about it!!). Repeating the same BS 15 times does not get anywhere in any thread you post it in.


Less subjectivity and more real testing or just not post....its really that simple.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19303227


Again, I have my measurements and adding the DCX to the connection the noise floor on any Tweeter increases 5dB. You are simply being a pedantic fool here on your term "noise Floor"....you do not understand what Im posting and you are picking a term and being pedantic about it. The HISS is louder...you can define that all you want but the measurements Im doing are the RIGHT measurements for me beause that is simply NOISE!!!

You measured you system and not the unit itself a point which you never seem to acknowledge. So using a pice of test gear that is not calibrated or designed for testing noise, in a noisy environment (room) with whatever gain structure errors you have and then post that the unit will add 5dB to the noise experienced from any tweeter. BS. I understand exactly what you're posting: I have been doing measurements on audio and broadcast systems for years in a professional role and that is why I'm calling you on it.


The published figures of the DCX show even at low levels it is >90dB SNR and at the levels it's expecting in use, 112dB. When I ran baseline tests on one of mine it was not far off that, certainly within measurement error and for all their other faults, Behringer are pretty consistent with specs.




I also have 3 of them, but mine are all modified. When I get home next week, I'll measure one of them for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19303227


Less subjectivity and more real testing or just not post....its really that simple.

No subjectivity here. I'm asking you to show me that the unit alone, not in your system adds a 5dB noise floor.


Because you can't implement it into a system without adding noise is not a fault of the unit.
 

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Please forgive my dreadful ettiquette for barging in here like this, but I happened across a USB Charger that I thought I'd bring to your attention. I don't know if it would work for this Mini DSP device, but I thought it was worth a mention.




Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19291912


I realize it does not come with power. I did ask for the DC power option, which is just a terminal block (5 to 12VDC), Can I just take one of the 100 old 12V plugs I have lying around???


Now, I know its powered over USB but I didnt think i needed a PC with it at all times.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
A9X,


Let me make this simple for you....


QSC DSP30 does not increase noise.

MiniDSP does not increase noise.

DCX increases noise.


"Noise" is simple defined as that "HISS" everyone can hear with a CD or Ribbon at 1". It exists on 100% of them, if people can not hear it then they are simply deaf. Its easily measurable too, just plug any of them into an amp (don't foolish have the gain structure at 10% to just prove a point, yes we can all turn the amp completely down if there is a gain structure but that is not part of this exercise).


That is the only importance. No need to jump through hoops and do an engineering class to define "NOISE" , it is what it is. No matter the gain structure the noise increases with the DCX but not other devices. Hmmm......


There is endless threads on their outputs having this issue (please read them!!). You are the minority on this and if you really cared to prove yourself you would post in those DCX2496 threads, I suspect you would never do that because you know its easier to banter subjectively about here..


Im looking forward to your measurements but you are going to measure something complete meaningless to the topic because from the start of our debate on this you have always been thinking about it in the wrong way (wrong as in ignoring what Im talking about always). Please post those results in another thread because this thread is not about the DCX.


BTW, thanks for wasting time on the MiniDSP thread. I hope you satisfied your little fettish on this topic.



Im hope we can just get back to the MiniDSP now. (asking for a 3rd time hoping A9X isnt a complete Ahole about the topic?)
 
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Discussion Starter #29
Sorry guys for the DCX mess....this is about the MiniDSP, lets stay on that product.


I plugged it into my Outlaw amp and my Ribbon speakers (just the M/T part of the design), nothing more then that. I didnt have any bass setup with them so I didnt play any music. I wanted to just check out the noise part of the equation
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Do you think I can do that with something like REW?
 

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Seems to me A9X-308 is right. The mini dsp and the DCX require different gain structures. But other than that they should have about the same s/n ratio (assuming the s/n specs are the same).


I have: dbx drive rack PA -> crown d-45 amp -> 115db/w/m horns. No hiss due to correct gain structure.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/19304523


Do you think I can do that with something like REW?

Most definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 /forum/post/19304534


Seems to me A9X-308 is right. The mini dsp and the DCX require different gain structures. But other than that they should have about the same s/n ratio (assuming the s/n specs are the same).


I have: dbx drive rack PA -> crown d-45 amp -> 115db/w/m horns. No hiss due to correct gain structure.

I sure hope so. The amps for the HF section on my active build is still up in the air. My first choice would be the d-45's but I need three of them. No way am I going to spend that much on those.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/19304567


I sure hope so. The amps for the HF section on my active build is still up in the air. My first choice would be the d-45's but I need three of them. No way am I going to spend that much on those.

Yeah it's hard to get into the idea of spending that kind of money for a 25w/ch amp.


What about used? I got lucky and found a local guy who sold me two d-45's and a d-150a sII for $600. You should be able to buy d-45's for around $200 on ebay or craig's list IIRC.


A t-amp can work for you too. I had one before the d-45's and was pretty happy with it. More hiss than the crowns, but you can buy modules pretty cheap.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 /forum/post/19304702


Yeah it's hard to get into the idea of spending that kind of money for a 25w/ch amp.


What about used? I got lucky and found a local guy who sold me two d-45's and a d-150a sII for $600. You should be able to buy d-45's for around $200 on ebay or craig's list IIRC.


A t-amp can work for you too. I had one before the d-45's and was pretty happy with it. More hiss than the crowns, but you can buy modules pretty cheap.

Preferably, I'd like all three to be identical so it might be difficult to source three used ones but I'll keep my eyes open for em'. T-amps would be an inexpensive temporary solution too. I might try those.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/19304719


Preferably, I'd like all three to be identical so it might be difficult to source three used ones but I'll keep my eyes open for em'. T-amps would be an inexpensive temporary solution too. I might try those.

I went with a bigger amp (75w/ch) on the bass horn since the driver is rated for that power. Plus, have you seen the chassis-less design of the D-150's? They look cool...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 /forum/post/19304534


Seems to me A9X-308 is right. The mini dsp and the DCX require different gain structures. But other than that they should have about the same s/n ratio (assuming the s/n specs are the same).


I have: dbx drive rack PA -> crown d-45 amp -> 115db/w/m horns. No hiss due to correct gain structure.

Sort of makes my case.


dbx PA specs




From DCX specs




Dynamic range: 109 vs 110dB: you've managed to do it Steve with a unit with the same basic specs, so it must be possible, something I've been saying, and doing, for ages.


And just to top it off here's someone else's set of measurements on a stock DCX, abeit using the SPDIF in (44.1k digital silence), so it shows the base noise of the processing and DAC and O/P stage.


[yellow curves]




and with a 1kHz -3dBFS 1kHz signal.




Note the vertical scale differences between the two images.


Analogue in won't be quite as good but the AD is a good unit ( AK5393VS ) and it's still a massive leap to go from this basic performance to a measured level of 60dB SPL.


From AK5393 datasheet.





My tests will be similar, but using the analogue in. Nothing else to get involved. I can get a stock DCX to loan, but maybe not till late in the week or next w/e. Going away this w/e.


When people continue to post technical rubbish, I will call them on it, no matter how much they scream and try to get me not too. Perhaps if said people did not post this, I wouldn't need to reply, no matter the title of the thread.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 /forum/post/19304534


Seems to me A9X-308 is right. The mini dsp and the DCX require different gain structures. But other than that they should have about the same s/n ratio (assuming the s/n specs are the same).


I have: dbx drive rack PA -> crown d-45 amp -> 115db/w/m horns. No hiss due to correct gain structure.

I'm curious: no hiss at what listening distance?
 

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Discussion Starter #39

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 /forum/post/19304534


Seems to me A9X-308 is right. The mini dsp and the DCX require different gain structures. But other than that they should have about the same s/n ratio (assuming the s/n specs are the same).


I have: dbx drive rack PA -> crown d-45 amp -> 115db/w/m horns. No hiss due to correct gain structure.


Never once argued about S/N ratio. Never posted it!


I said the DCX increases the noise in the speaker because it runs HOT. I NEVER posted that it creates NOISE. It just "amplifies" the noise the already exists. The problem here is the engineer in some people can not get past semantics. Word whores is what we call them in my company...its why I win contracts and some engineers can not get past the initial discussions.


I asked for this to be the miniDSP discussion so please respect that and drop the DCX stuff. There are enough threads for that and A9X can create his own thread to post stuff already known.


The last part here is about the stupid gain structure discussion. You guys have get off the pro audio mentality. Not all setups have pro gear and amp gains. Some of us live in a world where looks matter as much as functionality and in those cases Im not going to put an ugly pro amp/pro gear in the situation. Im not going to try and hide it either to statisfy some unknown pro guys online. You do not know my world so please stop assuming we do gain structure wrong unknowningly in all situations.


Even with proper gain structure (in my HT room) HISS exists. The problem here is that some do not know what "HISS" means.


Now that is the final word on this topic in this thread. Create another thread if you want to discuss those topis.


Please only discussion MiniDSP and not the DCX.



Any more post on the DCX will be removed because I will request them to be removed.
 
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Discussion Starter #40

Quote:
Originally Posted by findbuddha /forum/post/19306297


I'm curious: no hiss at what listening distance?

Please ask this in another thread.
 
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