[King_David]

No longer will Mitsubishi owners be stuck with checkerboard.


If you've got a 3D capable Mitsubishi TV, you've had the frustrating task of having to deal with compatibility issues. Luckily, those days are behind you. There's an update available now from Mitsubishi that adds support for top/bottom and frame packing 3D formats.


"With this new 3D TV software update, we keep our customers on the leading edge of 3D home entertainment," says VP Frank De Martin. "They can now experience a full range of 3D TV content on our cinema-like large screen 3D TV."


The simplest way to upgrade is to simply have your set plugged in to the internet and get the automatic update that will hit between now and the first of December.


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...atibility/5829



Download here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com./3Dupgrade.html

 

[nescosmo]

Yea but you still have to have the box to convert any top and bottom or side by side in to the checkboard. I think that is only for the glasses. The Lasevue have a mode like that. I do not have 3D jet but will see how it work on mine with the viewsonic glasses.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by nescosmo /forum/post/19516529


Yea but you still have to have the box to convert any top and bottom or side by side in to the checkboard. I think that is only for the glasses. The Lasevue have a mode like that. I do not have 3D jet but will see how it work on mine with the viewsonic glasses.

No, the new firmware enables the TV to support frame packing, side/side, top/bottom and checkerboard all without the box.

 

[Lucid69]

Please note, this doesn't mean that these sets will output those formats. Rather, it will accept the new 3D formats as input and then checkboard output them at 1/2 the resolution (960x1080), as the sets have always done. Still it's nice to see them update the firmware so you don't need an adapter box.


In order to do full HD 3D using DLP you'd need a 240hz 960x1080 DLP chip or a 120hz 1920x1080 DLP chip. These sets use a 120hz 960x1080 DLP chip so they can't do full frame 3D at 60hz, only full frame 2D at 60hz.


I would expect that Mitsubishi will make use of a 120hz 1920x1080 DLP chip starting in their 2011 or 2012 DLP rear projection models. I also imagine they'll still use wobulation since it will give a higher resolution and eliminate SDE (screen door effect), which is more of an issue for a large screen.

 

[tstokes]

This discussion begs the question, is it possible that my 2010 WD-82838 may be upgraded to the full HD DLP chip once it is available?

 

[Lucid69]

Short answer - no. You would need to get a new DLP HDTV that uses the 120hz 1920x1080 DLP chip, which Mitsubishi currently doesn't use (yet). I would expect Mitsubhishi to use that chip in the 2011 or 2012 model of sets since it's the only way to compete with LCD/Plasma sets with full frame HD 3D.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid69 /forum/post/19525172


Please note, this doesn't mean that these sets will output those formats. Rather, it will accept the new 3D formats as input and then checkboard output them at 1/2 the resolution (960x1080), as the sets have always done. Still it's nice to see them update the firmware so you don't need an adapter box.


In order to do full HD 3D using DLP you'd need a 240hz 960x1080 DLP chip or a 120hz 1920x1080 DLP chip. These sets use a 120hz 960x1080 DLP chip so they can't do full frame 3D at 60hz, only full frame 2D at 60hz.


I would expect that Mitsubishi will make use of a 120hz 1920x1080 DLP chip starting in their 2011 or 2012 DLP rear projection models. I also imagine they'll still use wobulation since it will give a higher resolution and eliminate SDE (screen door effect), which is more of an issue for a large screen.

You are right about the wobulation but wrong about the checkerboard. The sets don't output checkerboard. They output 960x1080 @ 120Hz. They can convert checkerboard to 960x1080 @ 120Hz, or they can convert frame packing, side/side, top/bottom to 960x1080 @ 120Hz.


Checkerboard isn't 960x1080. It's the same number of pixels, but in a checkerboard pattern. Checkerboard is not anamorphic like 960x1080, it uses square pixels. Because of the pattern, you can't actually give a traditional resolution to checkerboard. Instead, we give an approximation based on the total number of pixels: 1358x764.


How the Mitsubishi 3D DLPs handle a checkerboard signal:


1. Input Checkerboard Pattern and separate each eye


2. Interpolate the missing pixels, resulting in a 1920x1080 image for each eye. Essentially "upscale" to 1920x1080 (though the process is slightly different than standard upscaling). At this point, the signal is virtually identical to a 1080p frame-packed signal. (effective resolution: ~1358x764 per eye)


3. Scale to 960x1080 (effective resolution: ~960x764 per eye)


4. Output at 120Hz


As you can see, after step 2, the signal is virtually identical to a frame-packed 1080p 3d signal, so why would they convert a frame-packed signal to checkerboard? It just adds an extra step to do that, when a frame-packed signal could start at step 3.


The Mitsubishi 3d converter box converted all signals to checkerboard for native compatibility before the firmware update, but now the TVs have native compatibility with many more 3d formats, so they don't need to convert to checkerboard.

 

[Lucid69]

For those that want to read up on how the 3D signal is processed by DLP can read the following:

http://dlp.com/downloads/DLP%203D%20...Technology.pdf

http://dlp.com/downloads/Introducing...Whitepaper.pdf

http://www.informationdisplay.org/is.../art5/art5.pdf



No matter how you slice it, these sets don't do full HD 3D. I just wanted to make sure people don't read something into the update that it doesn't do. Full HD 3D is currently only used by Blu-ray 3D since over the air/cable/sat. 3D don't support the bandwidth for full HD 3D. I wish Mitsubishi would make it clear to the consumer that these are 60Hz 1920x1080 sets - and as such, can't do full HD 3D and need to do 3:2 pulldown for 24fps movies. Also, since the 960x1080p DLP chip uses wobulation to produce a 1920x1080 resolution that you lose some clarity/resolution by doing that. That doesn't mean wobulation is bad (eliminates screen door effect) but would be better if they were using a full 1920x1080 DLP chip.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

I guess you learn something new - i had been under the impression that our TV's were using full HD DMD's... I can't complain about the image quality, but it does bum me to learn that i have a "half-assed" solution..

Also, one correction to the original post. This is not for ALL 2010 Mits TV's - the *638 and *C10 lines have not (yet) received this update; it is only for the *738 and *838 lines.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid69 /forum/post/19527720


No matter how you slice it, these sets don't do full HD 3D. I just wanted to make sure people don't read something into the update that it doesn't do. Full HD 3D is currently only used by Blu-ray 3D since over the air/cable/sat. 3D don't support the bandwidth for full HD 3D. I wish Mitsubishi would make it clear to the consumer that these are 60Hz 1920x1080 sets - and as such, can't do full HD 3D and need to do 3:2 pulldown for 24fps movies. Also, since the 960x1080p DLP chip uses wobulation to produce a 1920x1080 resolution that you lose some clarity/resolution by doing that. That doesn't mean wobulation is bad (eliminates screen door effect) but would be better if they were using a full 1920x1080 DLP chip.

You are wrong. I've heard that they do 3:2 pulldown as well, but they are certainly capable of 5:5 pulldown for 24p by utilizing the wobulation pattern.


To fully understand what I mean, we need to look at interlaced TVs, which use a very similar technology to wobulation. Interlaced TV show half resolution at 60Hz and full resolution at 30Hz (if you have a 30fps source). While interlaced TVs are only capable of full resolution at 30Hz, they don't need to use 2:1:1:1 pulldown for 24fps content (as a 30Hz progressive display would) Instead, they interlace a 3:2 pulldown signal, which results in 60% of the frames being full resolution and 40% being half resolution.


Mitsubishi could do a similar procedure, except using wobulation. They could "wobulate" a 5:5 pulldown pattern, which would result in 80% of the frames being full resolution and 20% of the frames being half resolution, but it would still result in a much smoother picture than 3:2 pulldown.


Also, wobulation isn't the reason these sets don't have the "screen door effect". I hate that name, as screen doors actually block out part of the image while the "screen door effect" actually shows that maximum image. Eliminating screen door effect is nothing better than simply blurring an image, which reduces detail and sharpness. It may reduce aliasing artifacts, but you lose detail because of it. Screen door effect is eliminated in these sets due to the nature of the screen they're being projected on. Every pixel refracts on the screen in millions of different directions, which causes a slightly out of focus look. If it was front projection, you would still have "screen door effect".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divine_Madcat /forum/post/19528047


Also, one correction to the original post. This is not for ALL 2010 Mits TV's - the *638 and *C10 lines have not (yet) received this update; it is only for the *738 and *838 lines.

The 638 and C10 series are not expected to ever get the update btw. They will continue to need the converter box.

 

[Darth Indy]

Hmmmm and I was just about to pull the trigger on a 82838. Don't know what to do now. CES is so close that I'm afraid if I buy now then they will end up announcing that their sets for next year will indeed be full HD 1080p sets that give 120hz per eye instead of halving the resolution. What are the chances do you guys think they will actually do this for next years sets?

 

[Lucid69]



Quote:
Originally Posted by morphinapg /forum/post/19528935


You are wrong. I've heard that they do 3:2 pulldown as well, but they are certainly capable of 5:5 pulldown for 24p by utilizing the wobulation pattern.

I said that these sets have to do 3:2 pulldown because they do 1920x1080 @ 60hz, so 24/60 = need to do 3:2 pulldown. If they did true 120hz @ 1920x1080 then they could do 5:5 pulldown, 24/120 = 5:5 pulldown. I have no idea what pulldown these sets would use when displaying 3D content. I would assume that it would remain the same as it does for 2D content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morphinapg /forum/post/19528935


Also, wobulation isn't the reason these sets don't have the "screen door effect". I hate that name, as screen doors actually block out part of the image while the "screen door effect" actually shows that maximum image. Eliminating screen door effect is nothing better than simply blurring an image, which reduces detail and sharpness. It may reduce aliasing artifacts, but you lose detail because of it. Screen door effect is eliminated in these sets due to the nature of the screen they're being projected on. Every pixel refracts on the screen in millions of different directions, which causes a slightly out of focus look. If it was front projection, you would still have "screen door effect".

Blurring doesn't resolve SDE (screen door effect) on a rear projection set. You can "blur" a front projector that way, but I'm not aware of any focus settings on a rear projection set - other than geometry controls, but that's more about alignment than blur (defocus). SDE is the result of being able to see the space between two pixel structures. Wobulation, as used on these DLP sets, is what helps reduce the screen door effect since it also overlaps the pixels. If you don't believe me, read about the first gen. DLP rear projection sets that didn't have wobulation and weren't 1080p, they had SDE.


These are not bad sets but the consumer needs to know what they are getting. More so with the 3D movement going full force since it's likely that Mitsubishi will release a true full HD 3D DLP set using a 1920x1080 @ 120hz DLP chip in 2011 (or at latest 2012). That's something to consider if you're looking to buying one of these sets soon since 2011 updates will most likely be available in April/May (6 months away).

 

[Lucid69]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Indy /forum/post/19528991


Hmmmm and I was just about to pull the trigger on a 82838. Don't know what to do now. CES is so close that I'm afraid if I buy now then they will end up announcing that their sets for next year will indeed be full HD 1080p sets that give 120hz per eye instead of halving the resolution. What are the chances do you guys think they will actually do this for next years sets?

I'd say the odds are high that they will have a true 120hz 1920x1080p set in 2011. But a lot of that hinges on TI providing them the part, think I read somewhere that it wouldn't be the same full frame 1920x1080 DLP chips that are used in front projectors (dimensions of the chip would need to be different?).


But this might not be a big deal if you only plan to have the current model as your primary set for 3yrs. I know that seems short but that's the avg. life cycle nowadays. For me, a set needs to give me at least 7-8 years of service (10 years ideally) before being retired. But with the advances in technology it's hard to use a set for that long. Though nowadays, you get a lot of bang for your buck vs. what you could 7-8yrs ago.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid69 /forum/post/19529287


I said that these sets have to do 3:2 pulldown because they do 1920x1080 @ 60hz, so 24/60 = need to do 3:2 pulldown. If they did true 120hz @ 1920x1080 then they could do 5:5 pulldown, 24/120 = 5:5 pulldown. I have no idea what pulldown these sets would use when displaying 3D content. I would assume that it would remain the same as it does for 2D content.

You completely ignored how I explained how these sets are capable of 5:5 pulldown. They would wobulate it at 120Hz, just like interlaced TVs (which are only technically 720x480 @ 30Hz) can still do 3:2 pulldown by interlacing it at 60Hz. These sets aren't progressive scan like LCDs. They may be 1920x1080 @ 60Hz, but they're also 960x1080 @ 120Hz because of the wobulation. Wobulation is sort of like a vertical interlacing. By your logic interlace TV's shouldn't be capable of 3:2 pulldown, instead doing 2:1:1:1 pulldown (1st frame plays twice, next 3 frames play once) but they don't, they can do 3:2 pulldown by using the extra Hz, even if those extra Hz are at a cost of lower resolution. The same can be done with these sets. 80% of the frames would be full 1920x1080, and the remaining 20% would be 960x1080.


Here's a diagram I made a while ago demonstrating what I mean:

http://imgur.com/ii63f.png%5B/IMG%5D

So, within the 120Hz wobulation space, each frame is displayed 5 times (aka 5:5 pulldown) but if you look at it from the 60Hz space, each frame is displayed 2.5 times. So as you see, on frames 3 and 8, the 1920x1080 image would be made of two frames, but those two frames would be displayed at separate times in 120Hz at 960x1080 because of the wobulation. Got it? Any set that is capable of 3d is capable of 5:5 pulldown. Whether they implement it or not is a different issue.

 

[Darth Indy]

So you're saying with a firmware update these sets could do 5:5 pulldown and have better pq? I'm really torn on buying an 82838 now or waiting to see what the new models will offer. I really like the size of the 82838, I've gone to demo it a few times now and it just doesn't have the same detail/pop as the LCD/Plasma sets do but it is huuuuge which I like.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Indy /forum/post/19529730


So you're saying with a firmware update these sets could do 5:5 pulldown and have better pq? I'm really torn on buying an 82838 now or waiting to see what the new models will offer. I really like the size of the 82838, I've gone to demo it a few times now and it just doesn't have the same detail/pop as the LCD/Plasma sets do but it is huuuuge which I like.

Yes, with a firmware update they could easily do 5:5 pulldown. Better PQ though? probably not. The resolution will be the same, but films would play so much smoother with 5:5 pulldown.

 

[Lucid69]

These sets don't support 5:5 pulldown (for 2D). If you want to prove otherwise then show me the documentation from Mitsubhishi that states otherwise.


"At 120 Hz 5:5 pulldown from 24 frame/s video is possible meaning ALL frames are on screen for the SAME 42 milliseconds. This eliminates the jerky effect associated with 3:2 pulldown called telecine judder."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur#cite_note-16


From that technical description what you described isn't 5:5 pulldown. And here's another website that states what I've already stated.


"Smooth 120: As already explained above, this works in conjunction with the film mode to reduce motion blur in action scenes even though DLPs are much less susceptible to motion blur than LCDs. Mitsubishi does not give much detail about what is actually going on except for the picture explanation shown below. BUT these Mitsubishi DLP TVs are not 120Hz full 1080p HDTVs in a similar manner to what we find on 120Hz LCD TVs. Keep in mind that the DLP imager chip is wobulating at 120Hz to produce the 60Hz 1080p image and therefore it cannot produce 120 full 1080p frames per second.

In other words, DLP HDTVs cannot do 5:5 pulldown de-juddering on native 1080p24 film-based content. You can still watch 1080p24 using the traditional 2:3 pulldown technique, but this leads to judder - a jerky movement which is most noticeable in scenes that incorporate slow camera pans or in scenes shot with a handheld camera. In fact, Mitsubishi mentions only motion blur and does not refers to judder reduction, a totally different beast to motion blur. Should it be of interest, more information on the issue of motion blur and judder can be found in our article on LCD TV Response Time."

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...hi-dlp-tv.html

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucid69 /forum/post/19529921


These sets don't support 5:5 pulldown (for 2D). If you want to prove otherwise then show me the documentation from Mitsubhishi that states otherwise.


"At 120 Hz 5:5 pulldown from 24 frame/s video is possible meaning ALL frames are on screen for the SAME 42 milliseconds. This eliminates the jerky effect associated with 3:2 pulldown called telecine judder."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_blur#cite_note-16


From that technical description what you described isn't 5:5 pulldown. And here's another website that states what I've already stated.


"Smooth 120: As already explained above, this works in conjunction with the film mode to reduce motion blur in action scenes even though DLPs are much less susceptible to motion blur than LCDs. Mitsubishi does not give much detail about what is actually going on except for the picture explanation shown below. BUT these Mitsubishi DLP TVs are not 120Hz full 1080p HDTVs in a similar manner to what we find on 120Hz LCD TVs. Keep in mind that the DLP imager chip is wobulating at 120Hz to produce the 60Hz 1080p image and therefore it cannot produce 120 full 1080p frames per second.

In other words, DLP HDTVs cannot do 5:5 pulldown de-juddering on native 1080p24 film-based content. You can still watch 1080p24 using the traditional 2:3 pulldown technique, but this leads to judder - a jerky movement which is most noticeable in scenes that incorporate slow camera pans or in scenes shot with a handheld camera. In fact, Mitsubishi mentions only motion blur and does not refers to judder reduction, a totally different beast to motion blur. Should it be of interest, more information on the issue of motion blur and judder can be found in our article on LCD TV Response Time."

http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...hi-dlp-tv.html

I already said it wouldn't be 120 FULL frames per second. 20% of those frames would be half frames. Technically, they'd all be half frames, but with wobulation, 80% of those half frames can be combined to create a full 1920x1080p frame.


I'm not saying the sets have this feature, I'm saying they're capable of it. With a firmware update they could support it. Obviously, 5:5 mode would result in a slight loss in resolution, although most people wouldn't be able to detect it because the loss in resolution would only be visible for 8 ms every other frame, aka too fast for most eyes to detect. Each frame would be on screen for the full 42 ms like you said.


What I'm describing is 5:5 pulldown, just not 100% full resolution 5:5 pulldown. Just like interlaced SDTVs do not support 100% full resolution 3:2 pulldown, but they still support 3:2 pulldown.

 

[tstokes]

So can we say that the full resolution capability of the 3D mode is NOT effectively halved as perceived by the human eye? Can we make an approximated statement and say the MITSU 3D is more like a 90% solution to full 1080p X 1920 per eye in 3D and not nearly the half resolution it has been described as? I spent hours looking at the 82 inch compared to the panasonic 65 inch 3D and concluded that the panasonic was slightly sharper and some of that was because of it being brighter and not a giant rear projector.

 

[morphinapg]



Quote:
Originally Posted by tstokes /forum/post/19530229


So can we say that the full resolution capability of the 3D mode is NOT effectively halved as perceived by the human eye? Can we make an approximated statement and say the MITSU 3D is more like a 90% solution to full 1080p X 1920 per eye in 3D and not nearly the half resolution it has been described as? I spent hours looking at the 82 inch compared to the panasonic 65 inch 3D and concluded that the panasonic was slightly sharper and some of that was because of it being brighter and not a giant rear projector.

No, 3d mode is 50%. The problem is most people think of 50% 1080p as 960x540, which it's not. 960x540 is 50% of the sharpness, or DPI, but these sets use 50% of the PIXELS, which comes out to roughly 70% of the sharpness of full 1080p. If you use a checkerboard input, it's more like 60% of the sharpness of full 1080p.