AVS Forum banner

1 - 6 of 6 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,124 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have been using madVR on a home theater PC for many years now as my primary media player/video processor.
I've been very happy with the image quality it produces, whether tone mapping UHD or upscaling movies on DVD - especially since it can output those at 23Hz, whether they are NTSC or PAL discs.
I don't have many films remaining on DVD, though - most are now available on Blu-ray or even UHD.

During the lockdowns, I have started picking up DVD box sets for TV shows that are unlikely to receive an updated transfer at this point.
Even then, I'm not sure that a new transfer on Blu-ray would solve the problem: that many TV shows seem to mix content types.
You would still need to encode a Blu-ray to 1080i59 for those shows.

The main content itself typically seems to be shot in 23p and encoded to 59i using a 3:2 cadence.
That's fine; using IVTC to get a 23Hz output from that is no problem.

But there are often sequences that insert 29p (2:2) or 59i footage.
And there's the common problem of video graphics (59i) overlaying film-type footage (23p) as well.
Even without mixed content types, I'm noticing that many shows have bad edits which cut on a field rather than a frame - and that can break madVR's cadence lock for a moment; or just look bad.

Unless someone knows of a software-based solution for this (perhaps offline video processing), it seems like a video processor with advanced per-pixel motion-adaptive deinterlacing is probably the only real option.
But even if they can deinterlace this without producing artifacts, it seems like the only solution for judder-free playback would be a 119Hz output.

Are there any video processors capable of that?
Everything I've read suggests that DVDO products had the best deinterlacing capabilities (cadence detection and mixed content handling).
Still, I don't think any of them supported such a high refresh rate. It also seems like a lot of that older hardware is failing now.

I believe Lumagen has products that support a 1080p119 output, but I'm not sure if that applies to deinterlacing mixed content like this.
Can they deinterlace directly to 119 FPS, or is 119Hz support for progressive sources?

I'm not interested in the latest models unless those are the only ones capable of it.
They're prohibitively expensive - especially when they are still using 18G HDMI ports and could not scale to 4K120 directly.
Some of the earlier Radiance models are starting to be more affordable on the used market, but I'm not sure how far back 1080p120 support goes.
214X may be the first - if it even works for this application. I've been looking for a 2144 recently since they are the last to include analog inputs, and they seem scarce.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
559 Posts
All Radiance models up to Pro have a dual deinterlacer architecture. You can select between the Gennum VXP chipset or Lumangen’s own code on the FPGA. I believe Lumagen added the FPGA deinterlacing because the VXP chip doesn’t have a forced film mode (it has but it doesn’t stay in film mode). Gennum VXP mixed and video deinterlacing is comparable to the ABT102 and ABT2015 chips in the later DVDO modes. The Lumagen film mode on the FPGA in my opinion is superior to both (If your content is shot on film including most older TV series). The new Pro models doesn’t include the VXP chipset because it can’t pass anything beyond 1080p and Lumagen believes their deinterlacing on FPGA has evolved to become better in every way. The newer models are not much more expensive. I believe the old Radiance XD retailed $5,500??. Adjusted to inflation, it must be give or take the same msrp as the new ones. On the used market they are cheaper for the obvious reasons (obsolete, out of warranty, etc..)

I believe the older models could go up to 1080p72. Newer models including 2144 can do 4K60. the 2144 held its value and currently used unit sell for close to msrp. That’s probably because of me. I have been advocating for many years it is the best video processor for analog legacy devices. It’s really a league on its own on analog SD video. Other older models are much cheaper if you don’t care for the analog inputs.

In all honesty, I don’t believe you will benefit from any video processor for what you are looking to achieve. I never used MadVR but I assume its deinterlacing is world class or close already. If you also want to benefit from auto aspect ratio management, color management, HDR tone mapping, and excellent scaling then Lumagen is a good value. Older DVDO models don’t compare well. Also keep in mind, a big portion of the value for Lumagen products is the great support.

I think you should also look into older DVD players with excellent 480p output. Oppo 983 and 83 also have the same ABT2015 chip as DVDO units.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,124 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
All Radiance models up to Pro have a dual deinterlacer architecture. You can select between the Gennum VXP chipset or Lumangen’s own code on the FPGA. I believe Lumagen added the FPGA deinterlacing because the VXP chip doesn’t have a forced film mode (it has but it doesn’t stay in film mode). Gennum VXP mixed and video deinterlacing is comparable to the ABT102 and ABT2015 chips in the later DVDO modes. The Lumagen film mode on the FPGA in my opinion is superior to both (If your content is shot on film including most older TV series). The new Pro models doesn’t include the VXP chipset because it can’t pass anything beyond 1080p and Lumagen believes their deinterlacing on FPGA has evolved to become better in every way.
Ah, thanks for the information. I didn't know they moved to a pure FPGA design now and have continued to develop it.

The newer models are not much more expensive. I believe the old Radiance XD retailed $5,500??. Adjusted to inflation, it must be give or take the same msrp as the new ones. On the used market they are cheaper for the obvious reasons (obsolete, out of warranty, etc..)
I'm not in the US, and the new models now cost considerably more than the original Radiance XD. Exchange rates are not what they used to be, and they were already outside my budget then.
I was hoping that the older models could also support 120Hz since they're around $500–1000 used, but it seems that it's only the 214X and newer which support it.
Even if I could stretch my budget to a newer model's cost, I'm not sure that it's worth it if the 120Hz output is limited to 1080p.

In all honesty, I don’t believe you will benefit from any video processor for what you are looking to achieve. I never used MadVR but I assume its deinterlacing is world class or close already. If you also want to benefit from auto aspect ratio management, color management, HDR tone mapping, and excellent scaling then Lumagen is a good value. Older DVDO models don’t compare well. Also keep in mind, a big portion of the value for Lumagen products is the great support.
Pure film content played back using madVR is equivalent to progressive. There are no signs that it was ever interlaced.
You can force it into film mode, and it will lock to the 3:2 (NTSC) or 2:2 (PAL) cadence perfectly. IVTC produces a 23p output from NTSC sources, and re-clocking corrects PAL from 25p to 23p.
Tone mapping, color management, aspect ratio management (including automatic cropping), and scaling are all handled well.
That's why I replaced my hardware players with it years ago.

Until recently, that's all I ever needed.
But now that I have started buying these TV series box sets, I'm finding that it's not producing great results.
Video deinterlacing is nowhere close to what my old Oppo DVD player was capable of - or what I would expect from an external processor. Especially not for mixed-mode content.

But if you have a 23p film source with 59i content overlaying it, the only way I can see to deinterlace that without judder is to produce a 119 FPS output.
  • You can't output it at 23Hz, or the video content will judder.
  • And you can't output it at 59Hz, or the film content will judder.
  • 119.88 Hz is the first option that covers both (23.976×5 and 59.940×2).
And that's why I made this topic. I don't know if there are any video processors which can do that.
The latest Lumagen processors can output 1080p at 119Hz, but are they deinterlacing directly to 119p when that is selected?
Or do they deinterlace to some other rate, say 59p, and double that to fit 119Hz?

I think you should also look into older DVD players with excellent 480p output. Oppo 983 and 83 also have the same ABT2015 chip as DVDO units.
I do regret selling my old player now.
I don't know that I could go back to playing directly off the disc rather than a media server, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
559 Posts
I am still not sure if any Lumagen product can do 1080p120 including the new pro.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,124 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)

·
Registered
Joined
·
196 Posts
I would ask @jrp if the lumagen can do this. I don't know if it can detect the 24P within the source signal. I've been ripping any DVD content and then using handbrake to deinterlace before playing it these days.. a player that does a good job with this may be another option. It may not need to be an expensive player, but one that does a good job with the DVD era content and puts out rock solid inverse telecine 480i/P. A Lumagen could scale up from there. I used to have a Sony ES model DVD/SACD player that did a great job of this. I'm sure one of those would be great.
 
1 - 6 of 6 Posts
Top