More Dish HD-Lite NYC CBS

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CPanther95

· #3 · Dec 17, 2005

I'd consider it HD-Lite if they're downconverting a 1080i source to 720p. Maybe HD-Medium, but definitely a downgrade, especially for those with 1080i displays.

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Ken H

· #4 · Dec 17, 2005

Unbelievable, if true.

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Gary Murrell

· #5 · Dec 17, 2005

This is a mistake, no question about it, alert Dish and I am sure it will be taken care of

-Gary

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Gary Murrell

· #6 · Dec 17, 2005

the frame rate is all screwed up now

CBS HD on 61.5 is now 1280x720p and at 10.98 Mbps WTF!!

and was moved to Tp. 17 from 2

anyone who thinks this is what Dish is going to do with this channel is off their rocker

I have emailed Dish with this info straight up

-Gary

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I think I may have figured this out guys, is the the transponder that ESPN 2 has been uplinked to on 61.5??

can anyone confirm this?? which Tp. was ESPN 2 put up on 61.5 ??

It could be 17 and that may be why we are seeing this(temporarily) on CBS, just a guess

-Gary

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Gary Murrell

· #8 · Dec 17, 2005

Nope ESPN 2 replaced CBS on Tp. to go beside the Demo channel

-Gary

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GeorgeLV

Discussion Starter · #9 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb_hburg
720p is not HD-Lite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPanther95
I'd consider it HD-Lite if they're downconverting a 1080i source to 720p. Maybe HD-Medium, but definitely a downgrade, especially for those with 1080i displays.

720p is a downgrade compared to 1280x1080i (recognized at HD-Lite by most forumers) when the source is 1080i. The advatages 720p gains from the tradeoff of lower spatial resolution are progressive scanning and true 60 frame temporal resolution. When deinterlace 1080i to make 720p you lose the temporal resolution. 1280x720x30 is less than HD-Lite 1280x1080x30 (or 1280x540x60 if you prefer). Just because 720p is a ATSC standard doesn't mean it's not HD-Lite when converted from another source.

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jsb_hburg

· #10 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPanther95
I'd consider it HD-Lite if they're downconverting a 1080i source to 720p. Maybe HD-Medium, but definitely a downgrade, especially for those with 1080i displays.

Yeah, it is a downgrade in terms of pixels for those with 1080i displays . I have a 720p DLP display and a 1080i CRT display and they are both HD.

Optimally, Dish should pass through the native resolution. This is either a settings error or a test to gauge reaction.

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bgall

· #11 · Dec 17, 2005

When dish put up all the Distant HD channels as test they were all put at 720p for whatever reason. 3 of them (ABC,CBS,FOX) were put on TP17 and NBC was put alone on TP19. I guess they decided that ESPN2HD will be placed on TP2 so the normal CBS-HD East that was available to subs was removed and they made a mirror to the CBS-HD in testing (converted to 720p) available to subs

Current 61.5 Situation

-TP1-

Gallery

Rush

Majestic

-TP2-

ESPN2-HD

Dish HD Demo

-TP3-

Rave

Guy TV

HDN

-TP7-

Equator

Animania

Monsters (Moved from 5)

-TP9-

WorldSport

Treasure

Kung Fu

-TP15-

Ultra

Family

Gameplay

-TP17-

ABC-HD East

CBS-HD East (converted to 720p)

FOX-HD East

-TP19-

NBC-HD East

Also there are rumors trying to verify if charlie's statement about the next channels being MPEG4, if true it's totally ridiculous and nothing more than a sales stunt because there current channel allocation does not require MP4

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GeorgeLV

Discussion Starter · #12 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb_hburg
Optimally, Dish should pass through the native resolution. This is either a settings error or a test to gauge reaction.

MPEG encoders don't magically sideconvert 1080i to 720p because someone bumps a console. Given all the other transponder shuffling on 61.5 being reported today, the implication that it's not a deliberate change defies logical reasoning.

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jsb_hburg

· #13 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeLV
720p is a downgrade compared to 1280x1080i (recognized at HD-Lite by most forumers) when the source is 1080i. The advatages 720p gains from the tradeoff of lower spatial resolution are progressive scanning and true 60 frame temporal resolution. When deinterlace 1080i to make 720p you lose the temporal resolution. 1280x720x30 is less than HD-Lite 1280x1080x30 (or 1280x540x60 if you prefer). Just because 720p is a ATSC standard doesn't mean it's not HD-Lite when converted from another source.

I don't have the gear to verify but I have read that CBS East is 1280x720x60.

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GeorgeLV

Discussion Starter · #14 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb_hburg
I don't have the gear to verify but I have read that CBS East is 1280x720x60.

Mathematically speaking, you can't make information that doesn't exist in the original signal. 1280x720x60 is the transmission format, but it can never carry more than 1280x720x30 worth of information due to the conversion from 1080i. Obviously, information theory is a weighty subject, but I'll see if a another example makes my point clearer. There are 1080p hdtvs appearing on the market. When fed a 720p signal it is converted to 1920x1080x60 for display, but it still only contains 1280x720x60 of information. I hope that helps.

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jsb_hburg

· #15 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeLV
MPEG encoders don't magically sideconvert 1080i to 720p because someone bumps a console. Given all the other transponder shuffling on 61.5 being reported today, the implication that it's not a deliberate change defies logical reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsb_hburg

Optimally, Dish should pass through the native resolution. This is either a settings error or a test to gauge reaction.

I believe the latter of what I posted. But as for the former, this is Dish about whom we are discussing. Thus, I merely provide a sample of the range of possibilities.

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HDHTPC

· #16 · Dec 17, 2005

What is happening on the 129 sat right now?

(Is it similar to the lineup on 61.5?)

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HDTVFanAtic

· #17 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
This is a mistake, no question about it, alert Dish and I am sure it will be taken care of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
CBS HD on 61.5 is now 1280x720p and at 10.98 Mbps WTF!!

and was moved to Tp. 17 from 2

anyone who thinks this is what Dish is going to do with this channel is off their rocker

Interesting.

I made CBS's Senior VP East Coast Operations, CBS's Vice Presisdent of Engineering and Advanced Technology, CBS's Director of Engineering and Advanced Technology and the Head of Technical Operations at KCBS/KCAL aware of this at 4:30am EST Friday morning.

If it's a mistake and hasn't been fixed 20 hours later with these people on the case prior to the weekend - then it's not a mistake and was done on purpose.

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John Mason

· #18 · Dec 17, 2005

Recall the comments of a CBS VP engineering at this summer's DisplaySearch expo (on HDNet) announcing CBS insisted on 1920X1080i at a full ~19 Mbps.

BTW, from a sample/pixel density viewpoint, 720p can match 1080i (temporal resolution), but 1080i's spatial resolution is double that of 720p with both formats fully exploited (maximum resolvable detail). That's why, even though 1080i still isn't at max rez, it usually appears crisper--with the right display--than 720p. -- John

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jsb_hburg

· #19 · Dec 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Mason
Recall the comments of a CBS VP engineering at this summer's DisplaySearch expo (on HDNet) announcing CBS insisted on 1920X1080i at a full ~19 Mbps.

BTW, from a sample/pixel density viewpoint, 720p can match 1080i (temporal resolution), but 1080i's spatial resolution is double that of 720p with both formats fully exploited (maximum resolvable detail). That's why, even though 1080i still isn't at max rez, it usually appears crisper--with the right display--than 720p. -- John

A good exercise for this is to watch Spiderman on TNT-HD at 1080i and looking back at a capture of Spiderman from Fox at 720p (if you have one). The TNT-HD presentation appears more crisp.

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C

CPanther95

· #20 · Dec 17, 2005

It would be a little hypocritical to demand full bandwidth from the MSOs, but not from your own affiliate stations.

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