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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had a long discussion with Cliff (overcklr) yesterday, and thanks for that Cliff!


I'm sure this has been hashed out here and in other areas, but I thought I'd throw it out there again, as the odd person that calls me is paranoid that our analog CRT's won't be compatible with any signal source within a year or two.


I also want to make sure I have the facts straight.


:)


1) My opinion is that CRT is still the de facto industry standard when it comes to 'affordable' DIY home theater. I won't get into a digital bashing thread here, but for the person that likes a DIY system, a CRT fits the bill nicely. Long life, do-able maintenance, blah blah, still makes a CRT a good choice.


2) Much is being said (and I haven't followed much of the discussions) about manufacturers being super concerned about perfect copies being made of HD material thanks to the 'digital age', and the hardware/software that is currently available for next to nothing. Thus the HD DVD's and HD satellite are going to have 128 bit encryption in it so that the digital signal cannot be copied or recorded, other than on a DVR built into a satellite receiver. Cliff says that 128 bit encryption is not easily hacked, that it's the same/similar to what banks use for online secure transactions.


3) My point to Cliff ( and he more or less agreed after I beat it into him for 1/2 hour (kidding!)) was that the average avsforum person is not your average consumer. MOst people (even the ones in the digital forums..;)) are here to educate themselves, usually before making a purchase, and if the first purchase was one of impulse, then they educate themselves here before buying the next piece of hardware/software. I don't think you can say that about Joe Q Public that goes to BB/CC and buys an all in one 5.1 system or an HD ready RP TV.


4) So... my point here is, how much of an impact will encrypted HD material have on the world when it's fully released? I realize that guys like Art want HD DVD on their stacked G90's, and an install like that might be impacted, but let's face it, AFAIK, Art has literally one of the world reference systems, and even with an analog connection between his scaler and DVD player, he's STILL got a reference system. So while Art might not be able to connect an HD DVD, is it really that important. Everyone that has seen his system has raved about it, no one has posted that 'gee, the source material really limits what he can show on his system'.


Getting back to what I figure is 95% of the HT world, MR Joe Q Public goes to his favorite big box store and drops $5K on a progressive scan DVD player, 5.1 sound, an HD ready RP TV and maybe an HD satellite system, sometime in the last 18 months. THis is after buying wifey flowers and chocolates for months to convince her to let him buy it.


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but HD DVD's won't connect to most current RPTV's, right?


So now HD DVD comes along and he now says to wifey, 'honey, that RPTV is obsolete and I need to spend another $3K to get the state of the art'. No way that's going to happen in the average household I say. If it did, wifey wouldn't put out, hubby stops getting laid and eventually goes postal.


:)


To put it another way, I can't see HD DVD's replaciing our standard DVD's for maybe 10 years as well. Again, you'd have a mutiny on your hands if every consumer was told that by 2007, the entire current DVD collection is going to be as obsolete as a Beta VCR. BEsides, in 10 years from now, how many of us will still be running the CRT projector we have today?


So to me, while HD DVD is an improvement over our current DVD system, I don't know how quickly it's going to catch on. For now, my $100.00 DVD player running to my Lumagen and AmPro 4600 will have to do. And that it does nicely. Very nicely indeed. What, me worry?


:)
 

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Could well be right - you have certainly consolidated and organized thoughts that have been posted in different threads around AVS. Adoption will definitely be hampered if the studios mandate and implement all of the protection systems they have been proposing; all of the issues we have been worrying about and discussing are pretty much not even on the scope for 95% of consumers. I would have to concur with your subpoint to 4) - of all of the folks who have gone to BB and dropped a lot of money, the percentage willing to throw their new sets away and start over has to be fairly small.


You can also take point 4 and turn it around, to still support your premise - logically it is the people with the high-end systems who are the eager early adopters; if Art, Cliff, and anyone else with a videophile system can't enjoy HD-DVDs in their native format, without down-rezzing, who IS going to buy the suckers?


As for any improvement, have to go along with your take on "good enough" - I almost took Cliff's 10PG off his hands, but my 9PGx looked SOOO good, I passed. Sure, someone is always looking for something more, but 90% of perfection ain't bad.
 

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Even if there wasn't an upcoming format war (Blueray vs. HD-DVD), and problems connecting the players to existing TV's because of piracy concerns, it (IMHO) would take years before the average person bought high def DVD's because most people don't see a big difference on their 'average' sized TV's.


DVD's are popular because of the extra features and other useless crap. Not because of increased picture/sound quality.


Blueray/HD-DVD is going to be a very hard sell to Mr. Joe Sixpack.


I really do hope it takes off, but I don't see it being any more then a niche market for at least 10 years.


Kal
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
I realize that guys like Art want HD DVD on their stacked G90's, and an install like that might be impacted, but let's face it, AFAIK, Art has literally one of the world reference systems, and even with an analog connection between his scaler and DVD player, he's STILL got a reference system. So while Art might not be able to connect an HD DVD, is it really that important. Everyone that has seen his system has raved about it, no one has posted that 'gee, the source material really limits what he can show on his system'.
While Art's system does do great with DVDs, D-Theater is another level. And these next gen formats should be reasonably close to D-Theater and surpass it as better transfers come out. I also think you aren't taking the sound into account. Once HD-DVD and BluRay get here, using DVD instead will mean inferior sound in what I believe will be the vast majority of cases. It isn't just the video that is compressed on DVDs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
Getting back to what I figure is 95% of the HT world, MR Joe Q Public goes to his favorite big box store and drops $5K on a progressive scan DVD player, 5.1 sound, an HD ready RP TV and maybe an HD satellite system, sometime in the last 18 months. THis is after buying wifey flowers and chocolates for months to convince her to let him buy it.


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but HD DVD's won't connect to most current RPTV's, right?
It looks like they will work at 480i or 480p for the older sets. Most of the sets being sold now have HDCP inputs. But, I think you have hit on something here with the Joe Q Public thing and that is that many of these people wouldn't even know that their signal was being downrezzed over component because HD-DVD should still look better than DVD, partially because of lower compression and partially because of more color information. And that isn't counting the better sound that I think will allow them to push 7.1 sound systems besides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
So to me, while HD DVD is an improvement over our current DVD system, I don't know how quickly it's going to catch on. For now, my $100.00 DVD player running to my Lumagen and AmPro 4600 will have to do. And that it does nicely. Very nicely indeed. What, me worry?
I think you are correct and the bargains with DIY and CRTs and those will still be there. For one thing, the first HD-DVD players are supposed to be $1k and that needs to be included in the total system cost considerations. But BluRay in probably just over a year looks like it will play on an
 

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I think there's still too many variable to predict the out come


1 - Will there be a format war? That could kill the whole deal.

2 - Will it work with displays a few year old? The whole HDCP and encryption thing. Most people will NOT replace a 2 or 3 year old set.

3 - Will it need to "call home" to work? A plain old phone jack might be acceptable to people but a broadband internet connection?

4 - How much content is available? Who wants to watch the same HD DVD over and over and over.

5 - How quickly can the HW and SW get down to reasonable prices? Between $300 - $500 for mainstream players and under $30 for HD DVDs.


Time will tell.
 

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I'd note:


Everyone needs to be careful when saying "HD DVD"...it tends to serve as a catchall for both formats, namely HD-DVD and Blu-ray (BD). HD-DVD and BD are different beasts, in competition to be the "one" to win the next format trophy. They share AACS as their primary copy protection strategy, but BD adds BD+ (an "active" renewable solution based on SPDC that is carried on disc and runs inside a VM on a BD device) and ROM Mark (to combat large scale piracy). Depending upon how BD+ is regulated/executed, it may add or detract functionality to a BD device, which may or may not interfere with AACS.


Although it's not yet chiseled into stone, AACS will undoubtedly require HDCP for full resolution digital output, and will undoubtedly set limitations on analog output (e.g., 480p or possibly something along the lines of 520,000 max pixels a la DTCP's image constraint construct). That said, based on CEA sales data, there are currently more HDCP-capable DTVs than non-HDCP-capable DTVs and the growth of HDCP-capable displays is projected to skyrocket in the next 12-18 months...and the studios know this.


Even so, you could make the argument that both formats will deliver the best disc-based movie experience any of us have ever seen, even if you don't have a display that qualifies to get the "Full Monty" video experience. Add in the massively enriched audio support, and it's not all bad. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Funny, goes to show how ignorant I am. I didn't know that HD DVD and Blu Ray were different animals. Hey, get irradiated with 35 Kv for 12 hours a day, and you miss some stuff.


:)


Now, a question that again I'm ignorant of. I thought that Blu Ray and HD DVD put out 1080p, and that was the big draw for the high end guys. Cliff said no, it put out 1080i.


So where's the big improvement here? I was under the impression that regular DVD's were already resolving 480p natively which is why you want to output 480p via component whereever possible. 1080i isn't that much of an improvement then?


Oh and as for the average Joe, I'll bet that 5% of people that have HDTV and an RP unit are running S-video between the source and their TV. I've had at least two calls about this, saying that HD isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that's how they hooked it up. No idea whether this is due to ignorance or due to the instructions they were given by a box store employee.


:)


Oh and Cliff also said that D VHS is dead. I didn't know that either, it was never sold in Canada..:(
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
4)So while Art might not be able to connect an HD DVD, is it really that important. Everyone that has seen his system has raved about it, no one has posted that 'gee, the source material really limits what he can show on his system'.
I'm sure Art's system looks stupendous with great source material. That said, I don't see how poorly encoded DVDs and such can look good. HD DVD is our chance to finally get good transfers of movies such as Bladerunner and 2001... When I see a great looking DVD like Underworld, I feel I can wait quite a while for HD. Unfortunately more DVD's than not are lacking when you watch it on a big screen. There is just a lack of detail. For that reason - the hope of better transfers - I think it is important to be able to connect to HD DVD.


James


Now, if they don't use HD DVD (I use it as a catch all for Blueray etc...) to it's capabilities such as they don't always use DVD to it's capabilities, I'll be pissed!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
. . . .Now, a question that again I'm ignorant of. I thought that Blu Ray and HD DVD put out 1080p, and that was the big draw for the high end guys. Cliff said no, it put out 1080i.


..
Cliff is correct - there was a press release a month or so ago that confirmed it.


:(
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK, so what's the big deal then? A $99 DVD player puts out 480p. 1080i isn't that much higher in resolution.


What am I missing?
 

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Curt,


I was under the impression that DVDs were actually 480i and HD DVDs will output 480p via component. Which is why even "downgraded" output from HD DVD should look better than DVD does today. I hope someone else will chime in and explain.


Dave
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
OK, so what's the big deal then? A $99 DVD player puts out 480p. 1080i isn't that much higher in resolution.


What am I missing?
Curt,


It would be an interesting comparison to take one of these players when they come out and use a scaler like a DVDO to scale the unprotected 480P output to 1080P on CRT and setup the encrypted source to an HDCP compliant digital next to each other and compare the final result.


I think we would all be suprised (The CRT will still look better ;) ).


Cliff
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
Now, a question that again I'm ignorant of. I thought that Blu Ray and HD DVD put out 1080p, and that was the big draw for the high end guys. Cliff said no, it put out 1080i.


So where's the big improvement here? I was under the impression that regular DVD's were already resolving 480p natively which is why you want to output 480p via component whereever possible. 1080i isn't that much of an improvement then?
DVD is still getting deinterlaced. And every digital has a deinterlacer. It is just a matter of where it is done and how good the deinterlacer is. So, while it isn't great if they limit to 1080i and vertical filter like DVDs are, it is still 5x the resolution as DVD (either 1036800 vs 204960 if you want to look at an interlaced field or 2073600 vs 409920 if you want to look at an progressive frame). Oh, and the color information is 1/4th that. BTW: I just realized that I may have been too generous with DVD's resolution as I think it might be a little smaller than that.


CRTs can play the 1080i back without deinterlacing it, so that can be an advantage for those who wouldn't be bothered by scanlines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
It would be an interesting comparison to take one of these players when they come out and use a scaler like a DVDO to scale the unprotected 480P output to 1080P on CRT and setup the encrypted source to an HDCP compliant digital next to each other and compare the final result.


I think we would all be suprised (The CRT will still look better ;) ).
Why wait? We can do a comparison with D-Theater and DVD right now and D-Theater is just 1080i. If enough people are interested we could compare DVD on Steve Smith's G70 through any means he wants (he has a PC for good image quality or I have a DVDO) to D-Theater through one of my digitals. I don't think it would be a fair contest, but if people want to hear this (and then complain afterward :)), we could do it. I would rather compare D-Theater to D-Theater on both, but I know a lot here would prefer to compare DVD to DVD.


--Darin
 

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To start saying that 1080i hd material isn't that much better than 480p ntsc material is ridiculous. It's not just a matter of how many lines, but also how the information is encoded,stored and transferred etc etc.


Take the example of a 480p digital projector...hd looks much better than dvd, even though the display is only 480p. HD is a vastly superior format and everyone here should want to play it back whenever possible. So even when HD is downres'd to 480P it's still a lot better than dvd. The fact that it IS HD is the key.


Most rptv's are completely compatible with HDCP for the last few years at least....also, does the moome dvi card work or not?? If it does, then this whole discussion is moot.


Keep in mind there are hundreds of movies out there right now in HD...you just have to have a PC and some patience...and you will have endless hours of HD watching in your future.


Ben
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Why wait? We can do a comparison with D-Theater and DVD right now and D-Theater is just 1080i. If enough people are interested we could compare DVD on Steve Smith's G70 through any means he wants (he has a PC for good image quality or I have a DVDO) to D-Theater through one of my digitals. I don't think it would be a fair contest, but if people want to hear this (and then complain afterward :)), we could do it. I would rather compare D-Theater to D-Theater on both, but I know a lot here would prefer to compare DVD to DVD.


--Darin
That DVDO is one hell of a scaler. I tried it out last night at 1080P on my 10PG from a Pioneer DVD player and it looked REALLY good.


Cliff
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno
....also, does the moome dvi card work or not?? If it does, then this whole discussion is moot.
... as long as you have a NEC XG or a Sony projector.


If you check his site ( http://221.169.10.62/ ) it looks like he's building a 'universal' external version of his VGA -> DVI converter. $200US. Methinks products like these will become *very* popular once HD-DVD/Blueray comes around...


Kal
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal
... as long as you have a NEC XG or a Sony projector.


If you check his site ( http://221.169.10.62/ ) it looks like he's building a 'universal' external version of his VGA -> DVI converter. $200US. Methinks products like these will become *very* popular once HD-DVD/Blueray comes around...


Kal
Me thinks these products probably will be shut down when the new formats come to retail.


Cliff
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So buy now.


:)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme
So buy now.


:)
I know you have the :), but the problem with buying now is that the easiest ones to disable are those that are on the market before the HD-DVD and BluRay players, since the people working on copy protection for those can buy them too (for testing). There are smart people on both sides and whoever gets to look at someone else's final product and try to come up with a way around things or a way to disable it has the advantage. So, the way I see it is that buying one of these devices now could mean that you basically end up with a paperweight. And BluRay seems to have decided that the thing I mentioned above about the last mover having the advantage means that they should make their copy protection stuff renewable so they can react instead of just having to forecast. We'll see, but I think it is reasonably likely that the common HDCP avoiding stuff you can buy today will not work with one or both of the new formats. And that applies to devices for analog from HDCP as well digital non-HDCP from digital HDCP for digital displays without HDCP.


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
That DVDO is one hell of a scaler. I tried it out last night at 1080P on my 10PG from a Pioneer DVD player and it looked REALLY good.
You might want to PM Jason Turk for the price of DVDO's upcoming scaler discussed here . I think the price is very good and that DVDO has some of the best price/performance for scalers.


--Darin
 
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