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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I guess I'll run through my setup and and my issue. So my speakers are Monitor Audio RS8's, RSLCR, and RS1's, my sub is an Axiom EP600 my amp is an Emotiva XPA-5, and I have a Yamaha receiver are my pre-amp(waiting on XMC-1). Typcially I use my setup for TV, movies, and gaming. However, sometimes (when I'm cleaning house, paying bills, or whatever) I like to crank up some music.


I typically listen to rock, punk, metal and I always feel like it's missing some bass. The highs sound great, the low-lows are fine, but when someone is really grinding on the guitar I should feel it more. My computer and car speakers seem to do fine in this area, but I cannot seem to use an EQ to get the sound I want. Despite my speakers having similar or larger drivers. I've looked at the mid-bass module by HSU, but it works off LFE out and my LFE outs do not carry signals below 100hz (maybe even 80, can't remember at the moment).


Any suggestions?
 

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This may be not help, but I run an additional sub (8") between my cc output and cc speaker set to large and find I get additional mid bass control. It's because I am cheap and probably don't pay as much attention as I should to main/sub/room compatibility and find it cheaper to add a "mid" sub. I like my additional control of vocals without adding the 100 hz boom to my main sub. set at 60 hz. Try it, you may like it. The power handling of the cc is improved as well. Try other settings like "stereo only" etc. to isolate speaker deficiency.
 

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LFE is only for movies AFAIK, not music.


You might look into putting sub(s) nearby the mains, and using shelving filters to boost the midbass area you want. The reason for putting them close to mains is for localization issues. There are those who use stereo subs with a DCX2496, but they might also warn you of increased panel resonance of shoddy subs with the higher xovers. There's also the possibility of sitting in a LP where nulls are bad. YMMV.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat /forum/post/15555839


LFE is only for movies AFAIK, not music.

Huh? If his speakers are set to SMALL, the rerouted bass is sent to his subwoofer out. (Yes, he incorrectly called it the "LFE out".) Apparently his receiver has a fixed crossover.




Ryan W, do you realize that, unless Axiom has "corrected" it, unlike most any other subwoofer, your subwoofer has a VERY steep low-pass filter at 100Hz (iirc)? Even if you set it to "bypass". This may well be the source your problems. An MBM would help. Your receiver's fixed crossover point is not an issue at all. The MBM has a high-pass filter at 50Hz and it covers the frequencies between 50Hz and your receiver's crossover. Your 600's low-pass would be adjusted to the 50Hz filter of the MBM.


A small sub for your front channels, even when they are set to SMALL, would help you boost the frequencies around your crossover point. Of course, you could get a sub for your front channels and run the front channels as LARGE, and not rely on the subwoofer for your music.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15556232


Huh? If his speakers are set to SMALL, the rerouted bass is sent to his subwoofer out. (Yes, he incorrectly called it the "LFE out".) Apparently his receiver has a fixed crossover.

The only reason I stated "AFAIK" is because I've never once got to enjoy a mch listening session, outside of Bluray. I do not have a clue how things are designated on SACD or DVDA or DTS music discs. Huh? Were you correcting me, or were you not correcting me?


That's interesting about the Axiom subs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat /forum/post/15556280


The only reason I stated "AFAIK" is because I've never once got to enjoy a mch listening session, outside of Bluray. I do not have a clue how things are designated on SACD or DVDA or DTS music discs. Huh? Were you correcting me, or were you not correcting me?


That's interesting about the Axiom subs.

Would you hold it against me if I was correcting you?



It wasn't clear to me that he was referring solely to MCH music. But if he was, and he is decoding at his receiver, it will apply the same bass management it would otherwise apply to movies (and 2-channel music, for that matter). There are issues with some universal players not being able to apply bass management correctly to DVD-A, and instead, defaulting the channels to LARGE, but I am pretty certain this is not what he is describing (see below).


I suspect, though, that if he set his front channels to LARGE, he would get better bass performance with music as I suspect his issue may have something to do with his sub's steep filter at 100Hz. Although, the complaint about weak midbass is common with owners of other monster subs, too. So, it may not have anything to do with that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15556421


I suspect, though, that if he set his front channels to LARGE, he would get better bass performance with music as I suspect his issue has something to do with his sub's steep filter at 100Hz.

Wouldn't he also get this by having his speakers set to SMALL and having the crossover set to 80Hz?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat /forum/post/15555839


LFE is only for movies AFAIK, not music.


You might look into putting sub(s) nearby the mains, and using shelving filters to boost the midbass area you want. The reason for putting them close to mains is for localization issues. There are those who use stereo subs with a DCX2496, but they might also warn you of increased panel resonance of shoddy subs with the higher xovers. There's also the possibility of sitting in a LP where nulls are bad. YMMV.

Huh Huh HUh HUhUHUHUHUHUHUHUH??????
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 /forum/post/15556444


Wouldn't he also get this by having his speakers set to SMALL and having the crossover set to 80Hz?

I assume from his post that his speakers are already set to SMALL. And based upon the post, I think that his receiver has a fixed crossover point. If it is at 100Hz, then his subwoofer's steep 100Hz low-pass filter is going to cause it to drop even more steeply at 100Hz, so his sub is not going to be reproducing the small bit of frequencies above 100Hz that it otherwise would be as dictated by the receiver's crossover's LPF slope. Even if his crossover point is 80Hz, the sub's filter may be his issue, but it might be less likely. Or, his problem may not have anything to do at all with his sub's steep low-pass filter. Even if he had another monster sub from another manufacturer, he might have the same complaint; that he is lacking in the mid-bass department. It is a common complaint with subs that are tuned so low. They can often lack punch in the upper range.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan W /forum/post/15555229


..............my LFE outs do not carry signals below 100hz (maybe even 80, can't remember at the moment).

OK, Ryan W, in reading your post again, this doesn't make any sense at all. Did you mean to say your subwoofer out doesn't carry signals ABOVE 100Hz? I thought you were implying a fixed crossover at 100Hz (or, as you say, maybe 80Hz).


Clarification?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15556564


I assume from his post that his speakers are already set to SMALL. And based upon the post, I think that his receiver has a fixed crossover point. If it is at 100Hz, then his subwoofer's steep 100Hz low-pass filter is going to cause it to drop even more steeply at 100Hz, so his sub is not going to be reproducing the small bit of frequencies above 100Hz that it otherwise would be as dictated by the receiver's crossover's LPF slope. Even if his crossover point is 80Hz, the sub's filter may be his issue, but it might be less likely. Or, his problem may not have anything to do at all with his sub's steep low-pass filter. Even if he had another monster sub from another manufacturer, he might have the same complaint; that he is lacking in the mid-bass department. It is a common complaint with subs that are tuned so low. They can often lack punch in the upper range.



Maybe he simply has to add some distance to his subwoofer distance control to get the speakers in phase with the subwoofer!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/15556867


Maybe he simply has to add some distance to his subwoofer distance control to get the speakers in phase with the subwoofer!

Yeah, it could be a phase issue. Could be anything, I guess. Still waiting for the OP to post back.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim /forum/post/15556941


Yeah, it could be a phase issue. Could be anything, I guess. Still waiting for the OP to post back.


As you said, most all low tuned subwoofers seem to be lacking in the mid bass. I would not use that subwoofer for anything much above 50 Hz. Kind of hard to set the LFE HP in the receiver to 120 Hz when the sub is HP filtered at 100 Hz in the subwoofer amplifier. That filter looks to be a very steep 8th order 100 Hz filter.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/15557135


That filter looks to be a very steep 8th order 100 Hz filter.

Yeah, it is super steep. And a known "issue". I don't know why they designed it that way. If you look at the back of the amp, the low-pass can be adjusted up to 100Hz and there is even an all but useless bypass setting.

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ok some clarification. Yes I meant above 100hz, the crossover is set to bypass, I am using the receiver (Yammy 663) to control the subwoofer (sorry not LFE) output. The front are set to large, they're RS8s and I like to take advantage of their bass drivers. Phase and positioning definately could be a factor, but even listening to these speakers without the sub on, the issue is there. You guys are right on with the Axiom, it's not going to matter what I set my crossover on the receiver to because the sub won't push anything above 100hz. So theoretically I guess adding the MBM to the second sub output could add what I am looking for. Anyone have any opinions on it?
 

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So you're using the high level input on the amp? Does that mean the fronts are receiving the full bandwidth? I've seen some subwoofers that had a highpass output to the mains if using the high level input is why I ask.


If both the sub and fronts are playing the same signal (below 100hz) you can easily get interractions which can cause cancellation, meaning you're losing bass, even midbass. Have either the sub play it, or the mains, but not both. Maybe set your receiver's crossover at 80hz (speakers on small) and use the RCA sub output to the subwoofer.


After you've played around with different settings and speaker/subwoofer positions and are still not happy, then look into some type of midwoofer. As previously pointed out, phasing is an important aspect that might be overlooked.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
No I'm not using the high level input. Yes, right now the mains are getting full bandwidth and the sub is also on. However, I've tried it both ways and I prefer having it this way. I've been playing around with it for quite some time. The one area where I have tried very little in terms of change is sub location. I don't have many other places I can put it. I've tried adjusting the position/direction in the area where I can keep it, but haven't seen much change. I could benefit from buying a decent mic and running REW, but I do not have an SPL meter I can hook up to my PC to run it. It's something I need to invest in and maybe I should go for that before the MBM. However, I've played with various settings, done one complete rearrange of the room, and found what I consider to be the optimal sound from what I have available.


After reading that back to myself I wanted to say that's what she said like 5 times, but anyway...


I think that I could benefit from the MBM though. The EP-600 isnt the best at reproducing bass at 60hz+ anyway IMO. Being ported and trying to reproduce 20-100hz it can get muddy sometimes. It's always sounded better to be that way.
 

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Try setting the speakers to small with a 60Hz crossover on the receiver and bypass on the sub. Then try it with an 80Hz crossover. You may be surprised by what you hear. Also, do you know what notes the guitar is playing when you feel it is not up to snuff?


My guestimate is that there are 2 problems here. First, when set to large, the RS8s are interfering with the bass output of the sub and lowering the perceived volume. Second, the internal crossover from the dual 6" woofers to a single 6" mid is probably somewhere in the guitar's range (100 - 1000 Hz), so when you say you feel like you're missing something, you could be hearing this transition.
 

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Ryan W, with your speakers set to LARGE, the sub is not going to have any output with 2-channel music (I presume you know this). So, I assume your complaint is in regards to multichannel use. What sources are you unhappy with? With true multichannel sources (DVD movies and specifically recorded multichannel music), the only output you are going to get from the sub will be the LFE channel (if there is one) plus rerouted bass from those speakers set to SMALL. And when applying a multichannel DSP to 2-channel material, the only output from the sub will be rerouted bass from the already matrixed SMALL channels.


What sort of music listening are you doing that you are unhappy with? 2-channel? Matrixed multichannel? True multichannel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan W /forum/post/15561025


The front are set to large, they're RS8s and I like to take advantage of their bass drivers.

I am surprised that with the speakers set to LARGE, you are not getting enough midbass. As you say, that should take advantage of the larger drivers. So, how does 2-channel-only music sound?


If you definitely want to run the front speakers as LARGE, you may want to experiment with an LFE+Main, LFE Plus, Both, (or whatever your particular receiver calls it) setting. However, as others have pointed out, the bass redundancy that this setting produces can result in some interference that can actually result in less bass.


When you have tried setting the fronts to SMALL, what crossover did you use? You could probably benefit from an MBM, but you would need to run your speakers as SMALL. Your 600 would then only be responsible for 50HZ and down. The MBM would cover everything from 50Hz up to your receiver's crossover setting. You'd be able to individually control the volume of each sub to your liking (but, technically, you should try to achieve a flat FR). Since you say you have another subwoofer output, sure, you would probably want to use it. But a Y-adapter will work, too, and may be preferable in terms of your cable management.
 
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