[cmalinowski]

Wow, I'm actually on overload now. I've been reading AVS forum for days now and am just lost in what I want. I originally came to figure out what type of HD-RPTV I should get. Then I became very interested in FP's. Now I'm confused over whether to go with CRT or DLP. DLP seems to be winning, but now I just don't know which one, or what other stuff I need to worry about. I see everyone talking about HTPC's and GreyHawk screens to maximize their viewing pleasure. I go to sites that offer projectors, and the price ranges from $2600 up to > $10k. I couldn't begin to explain the differences. Anyway, asking which projector is best would probably be futile as everyone has their own reasons why they like what they picked. I was going to spend $6k-8k on a Mits Diamond or Pioneer Elite. I would like an entire setup (projector, doubler/htpc, screen, everything) for somewhere in that range that has as good, if not better quality. Is that reasonable? If so, what sort of setup would you suggest? How much did you spend on all of your components? Where can I go to read more this subject. The messages here are a spectacular source of information, but I need to be little more educated... like ofr the life of me, I have no idea what D-ILA is.


I plan on trying to get out this week to look at projectors at some hi-end store in the baltimore area (probably gramaphone just because I know where they are), so any help you can give me would be great.


I hope I'm not asking too much, but I am getting lost. It was very easy to pick from the HD-RPTV's: most people really liked the mits and the pioneer elites. Is there a similar feeling among the FP crew?


Thanks immensly for any help and guidance you can give.


Chris

 

[JP]

You are asking a lot here and I understand. It is an overwhelming topic especially when you take it to the depths we do here at avscience. For starters your budget is very good and can easily get you a nice setup. The problem lies in of course how you want to allocate that money.


I will go ahead and give you the short answer to one of your questions. Personally, if I had a $6K to $8K budget I would get the Sanyo XP21N LCD projector for $5500, a fixed matte white screen for around $400, a diy htpc for around $1000, and either a quadscan elite pro for ntsc ($1000) or an hdtv receiver (or both of course). Of course that is just me and others may want to sway you differently.


As far as how much people have spent on their systems this will of course vary greatly. I estimate I have spent around $8000 and probably about $30000 in time http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


As far as learning more you are in the right place. I haven't found a better source for honest answers to home theater questions than here at avscience. Just keep reading and your education will increase exponentially.


DILA stands for digital illuminating light amplifier. I don't know that much about it either. It has always been pretty simple for me since I can't afford one http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif My best guess from my readings is that it is sort of a cross between dlp and lcd. It uses 3 panels like an lcd would to give superior color yet it also has a very small pixel gap like dlp so that pixelization is at a minimum. As I understand it it sort of takes the best from both worlds.


Finally, your question about a consensus among FP users; yes, there are many models which people feel here are best. It doesn't take long to see that many users like the NEC LT150 (dlp), Sanyo XP21N (lcd), NEC VT540 (lcd), JVC G11 and G15 (DILA), Infocus LP350 (dlp), etc. That is just to name a few.


I hope that helps get you started at least.

JP

 

[Frode]

Chris,


Your viewing environment really is key to what kind of FP you want. How is your ambient light situation? Are you going to be watching during day/evening/night? What kind of material will you be watching - dvds, satelite, gaming, HDTV? How much will you be using it? How large is the room you're going to use? Is a 16:9 panel important to you? Etc.



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/frode

 

[Rama]

All i can say is, YOU GO CMAN~! Keep asking all you want, because i think im in virtually the same position a you, i want to learn, im not exactly dumb, but i dont know diddly~! (consider yourself alot closer to expert than i am, its THAT bad.) I hope people continue to post on your thread. As i start to read around on this topic, ill let you know if i find anything interesting.




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Rama

"He who (BLEEPS) nuns, will later join the church "c> - Joe Strummer, The Clash

 

[cmalinowski]

OK, so DILA seems that it would be out of my price range. And I'm OK with that.


I remember hearing that LCD's produce a screendoor effect, is that something that does not happen with DLP's, or is it pretty much the same? Or are they over that? It sounds like the HTPC is a very important component of this whole system. I guess I need to bounce over to that forum and start up my rookie looking. It sounds like a good HTPC is essential to overcoming CRT/DLP limitations. Would an HTPC eliminate the need for the quadscan?


I can pretty much control my viewing environment. I have a 15x19 room with a walkout to the back yard. I figure that I can easily put up good blinds to keep the light out and then I'm good to go.


I'll be watching DVD's, and TV. Right now I have digital cable, but can easily switch to dish if necessary. Ultimately, I would like to watch HDTV.


Should I get a 16:9 screen now to watch DVD's and in prep for future with HDTV?


Thanks for the help guys.

Chris

 

[David Mendicino]

Ok, regarding the screen door effect: it is caused by the space between adjacent pixels on the display panel. Generally, LCD has a lower fill factor (which is directly proportional to the spacing between the pixels) than DLP. With XGA DLP, you have to be about 2-3 feet from the screen to see it. LCD on the other hand, you may be able to see it from your viewing position at a distance of 9+ feet.


Screen door becomes truly evident when seeing a solid colour. In this sense, LCD and DLP are NOT the same, in that DLP has an advantage over LCD. DILA has a ridiculous fill factor, due to its reflect nature, even though it is LCD. It does not really have screen door so to speak.


Regarding the scaler: do not be mistaken, it can only make the image look better if the problems are caused by the processing of the image. Any problems which are inherint in the technology (ie. screen door, rainbow effect, colour accuarcy, etc..etc...) cannot really be repaired by a scaler.


On that note, before you buy, you MUST see if you are succeptible to the rainbow effect. And similarily, you MUST see if the screen door on the projector you are buying is also of similar annoyance.


On a sad note, you might want to read the threads regarding the encrypted HDTV and the like. Many here are worried that there current "HDTV compatible" projectors may in fact become useless. I say this only because you express great interest in watching HDTV.


Hopefully this post was of some us.



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David Mendicino

 

[JP]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mendicino: Regarding the scaler: do not be mistaken, it can only make the image look better if the problems are caused by the processing of the image. Any problems which are inherint in the technology (ie. screen door, rainbow effect, colour accuarcy, etc..etc...) cannot really be repaired by a scaler.

David, I know you understand this as well as anyone but I think this statement is a little misleading. I know what you mean when you say screen door cannot really be repaired by the scaler but I think a little clarification is needed.


Depending on your scaler things such as screen door CAN be DRASTICALLY improved. For instance, I have a dvdo line doubler. When it is used with my vt540 projector I can see the screen door in many scenes. However, with my htpc it is non-existent. The reason for this is because with a line doubler the projector receives an image which is not its native resolution. So the scaling must then take place in the projector to equal the projector's native resolution, in this case 1024x768. By using a htpc you can match your projector's native resolution and the projector has no scaling to do. It simply projects the image that it is given and for me this is where the magic happens. I am constantly shocked at how my 100" image on the screen looks just as good as what is on my 17" monitor. Actually I should be honest, the 100" image looks better than my 17" monitor due to the fact I have grey scale calibrated better on my projector http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Again, David I know you understand all this but I just wanted to add a bit more since it was a little confusing to me.

 

[Mark Hunter]

JP,


Take it easy on the rookie. No more confusion. The scaler won't fix screen door, period.


If you doubt this, put up a 100% white field. See the screen door? Run the white field through whatever processing you wish. Still see the screen door?


A scaler may fix other things, but it won't fix screen door.

 

[jhill32]

Chris,


My first go around for my FP system was about $11,000.

• $8700 JVC G11U DILA projector
• $2100 Draper motorized screen
• $ 250 Sony interlaced DVD player
• $ 90 Hughes basic Direct TV receiver

I overpaid bigtime for the screen because I bought it from an HT dealer. You should be able to find something easily in the $700-$1000 without a motor.


I quickly upgraded the DVD player to JVC 723 progressive scan. Major improvement to DVD images.


I recently installed a HDTV Direct TV reciever. Some improvement on standard channels, and of course, HDTV viewing is very good.


I may go with an HTPC in the future, although there seems to be a trend building high-end scalers into DVD players (using faroudja chips, etc.)


So, over time, I've been able to upgrade my source devices in relatively small increments; but, my display device has not changed. I believe I have yet to surpass the capabilities of my projector.


My suggestion would be to start out investing as heavily as you can on your display, and go basic with your sources. It is much easier to upgrade your sources (progressive scan DVD, Scaler, HTPC, HDTV receiver, etc.) than to upgrade your display. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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DVI/HDCP makes your HDTV not ready

 

[bluedevils]

I think maybe you should ask again after seeing projectors for yourself. You will then understand better about the "screendoor" effect, "rainbow" effect, "noise" effect and "I have no money left" effect. Read through the archives again after seeing these demos and you will understand so much more.


DILAs are based off of reflective LCDs. They are the least expensive 3 chip design currently, but they are not cheap. Three chip DLPs may be a contender, but not right now.


For your price range I think you could have a very nice DLP setup providing you're immune to the rainbow effect. You could also go second-hand/b stock and buy a dila.


good scalers (internal or external) are important, but will not change the screendoor effect.

 

[btmoore]

You may want to consider some of the 16:9 native projectors. You will see a lot of posts here about how people are dealing with widescreen issues with native 4:3 projectors, special lenses, video processors, zooming, masking, etc. etc. and yes all these things work but cost time, convenience and money. With a native 16:9 panel projectors and screen you just watch the show, no muss no fuss. The only fussing I ever deal with is zooming non anamorphic dvds to fill the screen. You just can't beat the ease of use of a wide screen projector and for HDTV it is a natural.


If you go DLP make sure you and your primary audience do not see rainbows, they can be very annoying and I get headaches from them. LCDs do have a more pronounced screendoor effect and IMO I think the gray high contrast screens make it more visible. It is most visible on solid lighter fields of colors but the effect dissipates the farther away you are. To mitigate this I have slightly defocused the image. As the defocusing is, for lack of a better term, sub-pixel it does not affect the perceived focus or sharpness of what is projected while dramatically reducing the perception of screendoor. Some of the other issues you may read about with LCDs like black level can be drastically improved through FAQs and tweaking.


You will also want to consider the noise and heat of the projector. The fans on some of these are very loud and the color wheels on some DLPs can produce a high pitched whine that requiring a hush box which would also require ducting to exhaust the heat, while others are quiet enough to be mounted above head with little to no distraction. I don't know your HT room situation, compleat remodel, new room, using an existing room, or just want to set it up in a multi purpose room, you may want to consider contractor labor and equipment if the system you choose requires hushing and ventilation.


IMO the bulk of this forum does focus on DLP followed by DILA and then a smattering of LCD stuff does leak in every so often. You might want to check out www.thebigpicturedvd.com , I think more of the widescreen LCD folk hangout online here. If you want to go widescreen I think your choices are Sony and Sanyo for LCD and I think I have read that there are some DLP 16:9s out there but I don't know who they are.


As far as what I have and use:

Sony 10HT

Sony 444es AV receiver that I use for component and Toslink switching

JVC 723GD Progressive DVD player

Hughes HIRDE86 HD STB

110" Grayhawk Screen

I used an existing room that was 9.5 X 25 and ran the cabling to the projector using wiremold wall mounted conduit.

Projector mounted overhead, no hush box required.

I think the total cost of all the above was $7500 - $8000 and that was a few months ago since then prices have come down.


Best of luck,


Brian



[This message has been edited by btmoore (edited 07-30-2001).]

 

[bcman]

4 months ago I first saw a demo of front projector in a audio video store. The room theater was comfortable and viewing a large screen so very satisfying. I cannot compare this experience with viewing a TV however large it may be. Back then, I knew next to zilch about AV. After lurking on avsforum (which, I might add, is the best forum on this subject) I now know a few things about this topic.


If you have a dedicated room where ambient light can be controlled then you may want to go with Front Projector system. My current choices are:


FP - Nec LT150 (DLP) projector - I ordered on Dell for $1700 but currently available on net for approx $2400. This IMO is good starter projector.


Next you need a TV feed and DISHNET Satellite HDTV receiver is a good choice. This should be around $800


HTPC - a PC computer that is configured with video/audio software, hardware to output TV, DVD and CDROM output (budget $1500). PCs have much higher resolutions and can easily manage HDTV resolutions. Also they can programmatically control aspect ratios for the frequency of signal. This is good way to go since the issues of control can be upgraded by software.


Another aspect is sound. TVs have inbuilt speakers but projectors have next to none. So you may want to invest in good speakers. The current leading edge is to have a number of speakers which include front left and right, a center, two side surrounds and two rear speakers. For low frequency you want to add a good quality sub-woofer in the front(SVS, Adire audio are good choices) and a couple of Low Frequency Emitters (LFE devices) in the rear under the seating area. The costs for this depends on your choice of speakers. Low budget around $1500, medium $3000.


To drive these speakers you may opt for a receiver that has amps, source control and other functions. Some opt to go with dedicated amps/pre-amps. Personally I am fine with a receiver - roughly $1000.


Obviously you need some device to manage all the eqipment and a universal remote (eg. PRONTO from Philips $400) performs this nicely.

 

[cmalinowski]

What is rainbowing? It sounds common. Is it a problem with the projector model, projector type (CRT vs DLP), or the room setup?


If I decide on the HTPC (which I am leaning towards), is there a remote to drive such things as the DVD and/or TV tuner that are in the PC?


My room is 19x15. I will be able to control the lighting (once I get good blinds on the back door).


I'm starting to lean towards a setup that has CRT or DLP, an HTPC with DVD, TV-tuner, and possible an HDTV tuner. I'm not tremendously upset over the MPAA/5C encryption agreement. I'm hoping that I'll be upgrading before that really affects me too much.


I might be leaning to CRT just because I'll be putting 1000 hours a year on it easily, and replacing the bulb that frequently can add up. Maybe I'm missing something here. But I do keep waffling--they both have their advantages as I'm seeing.


This information is great! I do appreciate it, and it is helping.


Chris

 

[Rama]

bcman, you mentioned using a PC for the upcoming system. Im building one as well, and understand how it will work with the audio side of my system. And i am begining to understand how it may work with a Tivo or some such setup for acrhiving (im actually leaning towards DISHnetworks pv501, which has a 35 hours hard drive recorder in it)


My question is, what use do you ascribe to the PC here..? For controlling switching functions..? I saw you mentioned switching formats. Please advise as im real curious, and im delving into this at a speed just behind cman.




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Rama

"He who (BLEEPS) nuns, will later join the church "c> - Joe Strummer, The Clash

 

[JoeFloyd]

Check out the HTPC forum.


In a nut shell a Home Theater PC is a personal computer that has been tweaked so as to be useful in a home theater. This all started with DVD playback and now includes PC capture cards with DScaler, and even HDTV cards with HDTV recording. You can get all of this for about $1500. A HUGE bang for the buck!


The Home Theater PC forum is dedicated to understanding the technical issues needed to build a complete home theater solution using a computer. It is often the single most active forum on the AVScience site.

 

[btmoore]

"What is rainbowing?"


I assume you are talking about the rainbow effect. This is a visual phenomenon which you will "possibly" see on single chip DLP projectors. This is because single chip DLP projectors take advantage of weakness in the eye and brain and use the illusion of persistence to trick your eye and brain into thinking that all 3 primary colors are being used at the same time. When there is quick bright movement or you may dart your eyes from place to place this illusion breaks down. You will not see this with LCD/DILA/CRT or 3 chip DLP because they are using all 3 colors all the time. Some people are just more suseptable to seeing rainbows and the reactions range from "oh I just saw a rainbow" to "get me out of here, make it stop, I can't take seeing the rainbows". I was more the latter than the first, ergo I use a LCD base projector.


Regarding HTPC and TV tuning cards, yes they do exist check out the HTPC area but you should know that they do not receive Dish or Directv. If you want either of those you will need a STB which have or have an option for OTA reception. IMO the more you move to HTPC and away from off the shelf components it decreases the ease of use factor for casual non-tech users.


You have a rather big room. How big of a screen do you want? This will make a big difference on if you use a digital projector or CRT. Light output is one of CRT's major problems, but they have the best blacks. CRTs are big and heavy things vs digital projectors. If you plan to ceiling mount a CRT You may want to check to see if there would be any structural loading issues with your house. I would not think there would be any issues if mounted to floor joists which are designed to handle a large static load but ceiling joists (like in an attic) are not always designed to carry heavy static loads.


Regards,


Brian

 

[cmalinowski]

Quote:

Originally posted by btmoore: ...rainbow effect. This is a visual phenomenon which you will "possibly" see on single chip DLP projectors... Some people are just more suseptable to seeing rainbows and the reactions range from "oh I just saw a rainbow" to "get me out of here, make it stop, I can't take seeing the rainbows".

Ahhhhh. Thanks. I'll be looking for that.

Quote:

Originally posted by btmoore: You have a rather big room. How big of a screen do you want? This will make a big difference on if you use a digital projector or CRT. Light output is one of CRT's major problems, but they have the best blacks. CRTs are big and heavy things vs digital projectors. If you plan to ceiling mount a CRT You may want to check to see if there would be any structural loading issues with your house. I would not think there would be any issues if mounted to floor joists which are designed to handle a large static load but ceiling joists (like in an attic) are not always designed to carry heavy static loads.

Not sure on screen size. My walls are 8' high, so I will be limited there. Since I don't know when image quality will start to diminish as size goes up, I'm not sure what it will end up being. But I am of the "the bigger the better" mentality... sort of... I want a really good picture too. I want it all.


I'm going to try to go look at some projectors today hopefully. Just need to find a good store in the baltimore area.


Chris

 

[Dave E in TX]

Chris,


I recently went from a CRT to a DLP for the same reason you are considering a CRT. On CRTs (mine was a Zenith) you may get more hours out of the crt tubes, but replacing them will cost nearly as much as the projector in some cases. Not to mention taking the unit down, shipping it off somewhere, getting it back, reinstalling it, and reconverging it.


I had about 2500 hours on my Zenith CRT and I found it had lost much of its brightness. It would have cost ~$1200 to refit with new CRTs.


My DLP (NEC LT150) will take 5 minutes to replace the bulb, requires no convergence, weighs 3 lbs, and will be back to perfect in no time. It may cost $400 a bulb, but thats still better than a CRT. Plus, my NEC has a fairly expensive bulb cost compared to many DLP/LCD units.


CRTs *are* wonderful. But you need to be able to live with their drawbacks -- low brightness, CRT costs, size, mounting difficulty, regular setup/convergence, etc. If you can live with all that, go for it. If not, go digital.


I actually think my NEC has a much better picture than my Zenith did. I think there are DLP/LCDs that can compare with almost any CRT.


-Dave


[This message has been edited by Dave E in TX (edited 07-31-2001).]

 

[cmalinowski]

Well, I actually got out to look at a couple of projectors today. I went to gramophone here in baltimore. Nice place. Good setup. They only had Runco's (VX-1c and VX-101c). And the 101c wasn't really set up properly. I have to admit, the pictures were very impressive with the right source.


My question is, how do other projectors compare to these Runcos? I mean the 101c was $11k and the 1c was 17k. That is very much out of my price range. Will the LT150 or the Mits X390 give me as good of a picture?


Chris

 

[Billy]

The Runco VX-1c is nice. I prefer my LT150 with an HTPC, however.


-- billy