Most promising post-Kuro panel
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Nothing out there currently that can beat a Kuro. Some can approach it but as a total package Kuro is still the king, even though discontinued.
Best Plasmas available now:
Sammy B850/860 series any size
Panny 58-65" V10 series
LG PS series
Best LED/LCD:
Sammy 8500 series
LG LH90 series
Sony XBR8
Each has it's own possible issues. Sammy may have screen buzz effect, high IR levels during break-in with plasma. Panny may have rising black levels over time. Some owners report doubling or higher. Read the relevant threads and user reviews online.
Many are waiting for the release of the 2010s and also 3D models since they are very close. Panny is shipping up to 54" this week according to a Forum sponsor. I was going to purchase the 54V10 from this same vendor but didn't due to early black level issue reports. Still looking at the 54VT25 3D model due in next week. Or possibly the 58" but that will not show for some time. If not Panny then likely the Sammy 58B860 or 2010 model.
Panasonic has acquired Pioneer technology patents and a number of Pio employees have been absorbed. Will have to see just how much Kuro makes its way into Panny sets this year and next. Initial photos online of 13g panels look very promising and Pio-like when compared to 12g but will the blacks remain? Will we have to wait for 14g for Blacks to remain?
Panny has stated that 2010 13g plasma models will still have the planned voltage changes to phosphors but they will be implemented more gradually than in the 2009 12g panels. What final Black level this will result in is still unknown.
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Best Plasmas available now:
Sammy B850/860 series any size
Panny 58-65" V10 series
LG PS series
Best LED/LCD:
Sammy 8500 series
LG LH90 series
Sony XBR8
Each has it's own possible issues. Sammy may have screen buzz effect, high IR levels during break-in with plasma. Panny may have rising black levels over time. Some owners report doubling or higher. Read the relevant threads and user reviews online.
Many are waiting for the release of the 2010s and also 3D models since they are very close. Panny is shipping up to 54" this week according to a Forum sponsor. I was going to purchase the 54V10 from this same vendor but didn't due to early black level issue reports. Still looking at the 54VT25 3D model due in next week. Or possibly the 58" but that will not show for some time. If not Panny then likely the Sammy 58B860 or 2010 model.
Panasonic has acquired Pioneer technology patents and a number of Pio employees have been absorbed. Will have to see just how much Kuro makes its way into Panny sets this year and next. Initial photos online of 13g panels look very promising and Pio-like when compared to 12g but will the blacks remain? Will we have to wait for 14g for Blacks to remain?
Panny has stated that 2010 13g plasma models will still have the planned voltage changes to phosphors but they will be implemented more gradually than in the 2009 12g panels. What final Black level this will result in is still unknown.
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Maybe in some categories, but the general consensus is that the Kuro is still the overall king.
Very soon the new Panasonic VT25 series will be released in the 50" and 54" size - it's replacing the V10 series.
The 50" and 54" V10 are now discontinued, but the larger 58" and 65" V10 will continue to be made for at least a few more months, then the 58" and 65" VT25 should appear in June.
Maybe in some categories, but the general consensus is that the Kuro is still the overall king.
Very soon the new Panasonic VT25 series will be released in the 50" and 54" size - it's replacing the V10 series.
The 50" and 54" V10 are now discontinued, but the larger 58" and 65" V10 will continue to be made for at least a few more months, then the 58" and 65" VT25 should appear in June.
Define matching. Are we speaking strictly of black levels or are we looking at the entire package?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky /forum/post/18226661
D-Nice to see you!what's your perspective on the near future? Is it a matter of months or years to see a Kuro-matching panel?
Define matching. Are we speaking strictly of black levels or are we looking at the entire package?
Well, the XBR8 is nice (and thick!) I meant to say, at almost 6 inches depth...hehehe, but I would rather take a 55 B8500 at 1.6 inches depth, thank you very much. The B8500 will have no trouble besting the Pioneer in a bright room, but it loses out when the lights go down. But the B8500 still looks quite nice in the dark--I would gladly take one of those instead of a Panny plasma, with their inferior filters, inferior processing, inferior styling, and color accuracy issues and rising blacks, and overly dim THX! Not everyone views their TV in a cave. Some people need a good mix of bright room and dark room performance. I wouldn't mind having the B8500 instead of the Kuro during the summer months. The rest of the year when it's dark and cloudy and gray and gloomy here in the Pac-NW, the Kuro looks fantastic. Of course, with the B8500 you don't get phosphor trails, but you get blooming. You don't get the buzzing with the B8500, but you do get off-axis picture degradation.
So you have to take into account the conditions in which you will be primarily viewing, and you have to decide which things bother you the most. Some people are very sensitive to any kind of buzz or phosphor lag. Others need to have the excellent viewing angles that PDP provides. Others don't.
There is no simple answer to these questions of which is best. The answer always is, what is best for YOU and your particular set of circumstances. What is best for ME may be entirely different.
The only LED/LCD that truly inspires me is the B8500. Sorry Sony, but I don't like yucky matte screens. Perhaps the new glossy-screen fully-backlit from Sony will win me over, but if they don't offer separation of blur and judder, like on the Sammys, they are already starting off with one strike against them.
So you have to take into account the conditions in which you will be primarily viewing, and you have to decide which things bother you the most. Some people are very sensitive to any kind of buzz or phosphor lag. Others need to have the excellent viewing angles that PDP provides. Others don't.
There is no simple answer to these questions of which is best. The answer always is, what is best for YOU and your particular set of circumstances. What is best for ME may be entirely different.
The only LED/LCD that truly inspires me is the B8500. Sorry Sony, but I don't like yucky matte screens. Perhaps the new glossy-screen fully-backlit from Sony will win me over, but if they don't offer separation of blur and judder, like on the Sammys, they are already starting off with one strike against them.
I'm quite used to 8G's buzz, no problem, it's a bit annoying in silent scenes (1%??), but really no problem...
As here in Italy Kuro's are short on storage, now it's the time to make a decision... spend today 6500USD (that's the cost of a KRP-600, 60" here in italy) or try to resist with my (superb) 8G, hopeing someone will sooner match Pioneer's jewels?
As here in Italy Kuro's are short on storage, now it's the time to make a decision... spend today 6500USD (that's the cost of a KRP-600, 60" here in italy) or try to resist with my (superb) 8G, hopeing someone will sooner match Pioneer's jewels?
I had the B860 right next to my 500M.
1) AR filters...very similar. No major difference.
2) Colors...very similar. Colors sometimes looked a bit deeper/richer because of the extra contrast on the Pio, but the Samsung colors were still fantastic and in no way fell short of the Pio. Some might even prefer the colors on the Sammy. No clear winner or loser here. Everyone would love the colors on both.
3) Sharpness of picture...very similar (Samsung defaults to 20; I dialed back to zero. Pio at -15) I would not say one was particularly sharper than the other.
4) Blacks? Not even close. Pio by a mile. With any significant amount of black on the screen it is not subtle.
5) Processing? Samsung does better deinterlacing, but I purchased a Denon AVR which has Anchor Bay VRS ABT-2010 processing onboard. Still, I am impressed with Sammy processing. (Not really fair for Pio since they're processing is older and Samsung has had time to improve).
6) 24p? Samsung's Cinema Smooth is broken so clear advantage Pioneer here.
7) Horizontal line bleed? Pio is clearly superior to all other PDP's in this area, including Samsung. I never even think about it on my Pio, because I never notice it. I saw it occasionally on the Sammy.
8) Picture aspect ratio? Pioneer has better options for zooming/stretching the picture than Samsung. I have never been happy with Samsung's limited picture zoom options. You can even shift the picture vert/horiz a few pixels on the Pio. Definite advantage Kuro
9) Image retention? Once again, Kuro asserts its superiority in this area. Samsung would get IR quite easily. (It would also go away fairly quickly though).
10) Phosphor lag? Pioneer might exhibit phosphor trailing a bit more than the Samsung, but I did not keep the Samsung long enough to fully test this out thoroughly.
11) Light output? The Sammy could get a wee bit brighter in movie mode than the Pio in Pure, but that can easily be remedied on the Pio by getting the patch ($100) and using ISF day. Then the Pio wins.
12) Remote? I think the remote is much nicer on the Pio. The remote I saw on the new C7000 LED this evening was refreshingly cool looking, however. I think Samsung is going to focus on delivering snazzy remotes on their premium TV's from now on. I really was not impressed with either Samsung or Panny remotes in the past. I thought they both were cheap and sucked. Thankfully Samsung is doing something about that
13) Styling? I like the look of the Samsung better. I like the thinness, the stainless steel stand, etc. The Pioneer stand does not swivel, and the Sammy does, so advantage Samsung.
14) Build quality? Pios were expensive for a reason. They are very well made.
15) Buzzing? Neither one have it bad enough to bother me. Except when doing head to head tests I usually run the Pio in energy save 2 mode, or perhaps the buzz would bother me. They both had what I would consider normal plasma buzz. I could hear it occasionally (especially on a bright screen) if I was listening for it. Not a deal-breaker on either set, but I look forward to the day when I can have PDP pic quality and perfectly quiet at the same time. Not quite there yet.
16) Shadow detail? I'm afraid I never got around to doing thorough testing on this, and would need superb ISF calibration on both displays to make it fair anyhow.
Clearly the Pio is a better display all around, but the Samsung picture is just as sharp and colorful and in some ways at least has even better processing. The extra money for the Pio just means you get deeper blacks, better motion (includes proper 24p @ 72 hz), less IR nuisnace, virtually undetectable line-bleed, and top-notch build quality. I also value the better aspect ratio/zoom controls.
P.S. The Internet widgets on the Samsung and the media playback are all but useless for me. The widgets are too slow loading for me to want to wait around for, and you cannot adjust the picture controls when playing media from the USB drive. You are forced to use some kind of dynamic mode. It is definitely not the accurate movie mode when you use the built-in content player.
I have an HD media player which has all kinds of Internet gizmos and network streaming, and can do wi-fi, and works tens times better than the built-in crap that comes with TV's.
I hope Samsung makes the widgets load much faster on the 2010's.
I was mildly entertained by the built-in content on the Samsungs though. I liked looking at the pretty artwork and pretty nature landscapes slideshows, etc. with the pretty music playing in the background. I probably would only use it to show off to guests when entertaining every once in a blue moon. Like I said, I can do this type of stuff with my media player or PC via HDMI in however. It's just a bonus to not have to fire up the media player or PC to do these things. Having them seamlessly integrated into the TV is an added nice touch. I hope Samsung adds more useful content in the 2010 models.
1) AR filters...very similar. No major difference.
2) Colors...very similar. Colors sometimes looked a bit deeper/richer because of the extra contrast on the Pio, but the Samsung colors were still fantastic and in no way fell short of the Pio. Some might even prefer the colors on the Sammy. No clear winner or loser here. Everyone would love the colors on both.
3) Sharpness of picture...very similar (Samsung defaults to 20; I dialed back to zero. Pio at -15) I would not say one was particularly sharper than the other.
4) Blacks? Not even close. Pio by a mile. With any significant amount of black on the screen it is not subtle.
5) Processing? Samsung does better deinterlacing, but I purchased a Denon AVR which has Anchor Bay VRS ABT-2010 processing onboard. Still, I am impressed with Sammy processing. (Not really fair for Pio since they're processing is older and Samsung has had time to improve).
6) 24p? Samsung's Cinema Smooth is broken so clear advantage Pioneer here.
7) Horizontal line bleed? Pio is clearly superior to all other PDP's in this area, including Samsung. I never even think about it on my Pio, because I never notice it. I saw it occasionally on the Sammy.
8) Picture aspect ratio? Pioneer has better options for zooming/stretching the picture than Samsung. I have never been happy with Samsung's limited picture zoom options. You can even shift the picture vert/horiz a few pixels on the Pio. Definite advantage Kuro
9) Image retention? Once again, Kuro asserts its superiority in this area. Samsung would get IR quite easily. (It would also go away fairly quickly though).
10) Phosphor lag? Pioneer might exhibit phosphor trailing a bit more than the Samsung, but I did not keep the Samsung long enough to fully test this out thoroughly.
11) Light output? The Sammy could get a wee bit brighter in movie mode than the Pio in Pure, but that can easily be remedied on the Pio by getting the patch ($100) and using ISF day. Then the Pio wins.
12) Remote? I think the remote is much nicer on the Pio. The remote I saw on the new C7000 LED this evening was refreshingly cool looking, however. I think Samsung is going to focus on delivering snazzy remotes on their premium TV's from now on. I really was not impressed with either Samsung or Panny remotes in the past. I thought they both were cheap and sucked. Thankfully Samsung is doing something about that
13) Styling? I like the look of the Samsung better. I like the thinness, the stainless steel stand, etc. The Pioneer stand does not swivel, and the Sammy does, so advantage Samsung.
14) Build quality? Pios were expensive for a reason. They are very well made.
15) Buzzing? Neither one have it bad enough to bother me. Except when doing head to head tests I usually run the Pio in energy save 2 mode, or perhaps the buzz would bother me. They both had what I would consider normal plasma buzz. I could hear it occasionally (especially on a bright screen) if I was listening for it. Not a deal-breaker on either set, but I look forward to the day when I can have PDP pic quality and perfectly quiet at the same time. Not quite there yet.
16) Shadow detail? I'm afraid I never got around to doing thorough testing on this, and would need superb ISF calibration on both displays to make it fair anyhow.
Clearly the Pio is a better display all around, but the Samsung picture is just as sharp and colorful and in some ways at least has even better processing. The extra money for the Pio just means you get deeper blacks, better motion (includes proper 24p @ 72 hz), less IR nuisnace, virtually undetectable line-bleed, and top-notch build quality. I also value the better aspect ratio/zoom controls.
P.S. The Internet widgets on the Samsung and the media playback are all but useless for me. The widgets are too slow loading for me to want to wait around for, and you cannot adjust the picture controls when playing media from the USB drive. You are forced to use some kind of dynamic mode. It is definitely not the accurate movie mode when you use the built-in content player.
I have an HD media player which has all kinds of Internet gizmos and network streaming, and can do wi-fi, and works tens times better than the built-in crap that comes with TV's.
I hope Samsung makes the widgets load much faster on the 2010's.
I was mildly entertained by the built-in content on the Samsungs though. I liked looking at the pretty artwork and pretty nature landscapes slideshows, etc. with the pretty music playing in the background. I probably would only use it to show off to guests when entertaining every once in a blue moon. Like I said, I can do this type of stuff with my media player or PC via HDMI in however. It's just a bonus to not have to fire up the media player or PC to do these things. Having them seamlessly integrated into the TV is an added nice touch. I hope Samsung adds more useful content in the 2010 models.
Many thanks for the excellent and honest comparison.
No plasma is going to touch the goodness of the Kuros for a good while, I would wager. And with Pannys latest debacle that seems a certainty, even with Panny now holding much of the Pioneer tech.
I don't think anyone actually expects anything currently on the market to compare to Pioneer, at least not in most of the critical areas. Sammy color and processing do go a long way towards closing the gap and that is good to see.
As for me, I am still in the upgrade holding pattern. If the new Sammys have fixed the issues from '09, then they look like the way to go. I can't see Panasonic getting much love for awhile, at least not until they have been long term tested. I can't see paying Panasonic for Samsung blacks. Shame really, as I was waiting on the 54VT25.
No plasma is going to touch the goodness of the Kuros for a good while, I would wager. And with Pannys latest debacle that seems a certainty, even with Panny now holding much of the Pioneer tech.
I don't think anyone actually expects anything currently on the market to compare to Pioneer, at least not in most of the critical areas. Sammy color and processing do go a long way towards closing the gap and that is good to see.
As for me, I am still in the upgrade holding pattern. If the new Sammys have fixed the issues from '09, then they look like the way to go. I can't see Panasonic getting much love for awhile, at least not until they have been long term tested. I can't see paying Panasonic for Samsung blacks. Shame really, as I was waiting on the 54VT25.
OK, here we go again... 1900$ for a 5090H, could pick it up tomorrow if I wanted to... Go for it or not?
Oh yeah, I also found one; 1400$ Not used. The reason why it is so cheap i because it has a crack in the framework due to te ignorance of the buyer who dropped it against something while transporting the tv. Whilest the image has nothing there is a crack on the frame though... Go for this and let it be repaired or search for a secondhand broken 5090 and buy soley the frame?
Eager to hear your opinion!!
Oh yeah, I also found one; 1400$ Not used. The reason why it is so cheap i because it has a crack in the framework due to te ignorance of the buyer who dropped it against something while transporting the tv. Whilest the image has nothing there is a crack on the frame though... Go for this and let it be repaired or search for a secondhand broken 5090 and buy soley the frame?
Eager to hear your opinion!!
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