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Mr. Gouger – think before you pull this one.

170 Views 8 Replies 8 Participants Last post by  Alan Gouger
Dear Alan,

In the last twenty-four hours you have expunged one topic that I started, and closed another that asked about the one that was removed. All this on the Birthday of the country that champions freedom of speech. You hinted that my credibility was in doubt, something that you gracefully recanted a short while later. When I challenged you to replace my post, you said you could not bring back a post that you had removed. Then without giving me a chance to reply, you wished all a happy Fourth, (same to you), and closed the topic. You could have offered me the opportunity to replace the post.

By now you are asking, ‘where the hell is this going?’ Well, I’ll tell you this topic is not about the Panamorph. It is about something far more important: Truth.

Alan, I understand how much pressure Shawn and the company are under right now. (I have recently offered to help solve some of the problems if I can talk to Shaw directly.) But when you try to control dialogue, suppress reasonable levels of anger, quash inquiries by those that are entitled to ask tough questions, then you have started down a path where Truth becomes your enemy.

The Truth is funny. It is ruthless, and can be used as a weapon inflicting great harm. It often hides when most needed. It is both formidable and fierce, and yet…, and yet… it is pathetically fragile. It wanes when one person takes on the responsibility to be its protector. It starves without the food of dissent. And it thrives where there is the chaos that comes so often with freedom. Truth may not make a comfortable friend, but it makes a God-awful enemy.

You’re making a mistake in the way you are running the forum Alan. Use what has happened here to make the forum better for all, and set an example for other moderators.

First, admit to your friends at the forum that you are too close to the Panamorph project to be objective. (As an aside, you may be close to the project, and be perfectly objective. But when you control discussion of a topic with the right to edit and censer, and are you are personally involved with the product or services under consideration, you leave the appearance of non-objectivity.)

Second, appoint a neutral moderator for all topics involving the Panamorph. By so doing, you set a high standard for all moderators who are responsible for topics in which they have an interest, either financial, or by way of friendship.

One of the remarkable things about the Truth, is that though often subdued, it always comes out. Help keep the door open so that it might shed its harsh light upon all of us. I acknowledge how difficult this is to accomplish, as being responsible for what people are allowed to say is an excruciatingly difficult task, one that should humble the best of men.

If this post remains, I will have nothing more to say about this topic, or the Panamorph. You shall have the last word.


Sore Eyes

PS. In your note to me, you said one of your reasons for pulling my post is that people were tired reading about the subject. There are thousands of posts on this site. Tell them to do what I do; don’t read the ones that don’t interest you.
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For crying out loud, enough already! How about them Mariners! Or how about them Rangers! Or how about them ...
Sore Eyes,

Haven't you noticed that most pre-buyer's don't feel that there is a crisis? Cygnus is a real company, with real products that have been widely praised, like their IMX depixilizer lens. Shawn said he expected P752's to start shipping this month. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and by the looks of things, so are the overwhelming majority of very patient pre-buyers.
Smitty, Larry,

Personally, I'm not all that eager to receive the product and rarely post to the P** threads myself, but I have to defend a person's ability to exercise their right to free speech.

Yes, we all tire of hearing about the same old topics ad nauseum (and I am just adding to the drivel with this post), but I do believe that Sore Eyes, Martin P and everyone else should be able to speak their mind if they feel the need.

This is a privately-owned forum, however, and the moderators have the responsibility of removing anything they wish for whatever reason they deem appropriate.

I also believe that issues should be discussed with the involved parties, when appropriate, but that an individual has a right to discuss issues publicly when they feel that is appropriate as well.

As was mentioned previously, if you don't wish to READ, that is your right as well.

I have watched censorship occur on other forums, and I believe that the act of censorship sends a message that can often times be stronger than the sentiment expressed in the original author's emotional diatribe. Censorship, in all it's forms, can often elicit a "what is being hidden here" mentality which can often be more damaging than letting a conversation naturally run it's course.

My $0.02.
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Originally posted by milori:
This is] a privately-owned forum, however, and the moderators have the responsibility of removing anything they wish for whatever reason they deem appropriate.
A responsibility to what? Ok ok I know what you meant...

One method that I've seen used effectively before is for the moderators to limit the b**tch threads to one per topic. For instance, instead of 12 panamorph complainer threads, there would be one. Same goes for TAW.

Originally posted by arrow:

One method that I've seen used effectively before is for the moderators to limit the b**tch threads to one per topic.

Well, if that worked we'd still be on my original thread from over a week ago. However, moderator tommyboy2 decided he didn't agree with my point of view and nuked it -- twice, resulting in new threads being started.

Perhaps after a year of waiting for this thing all the gripes added up to more than 1 thread's worth...



I Work For Walt Disney, So I Must Be Good.
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Sore eyes,

Posting in the middle of the night, 1:13 AM eastern, isn't really a good way to be up front about your thoughts. I would try and posting in the morning when you know they are at least awake.

Freedom of speech doesn't exist on this forum. I'll prove it:

"This is ****ing **** !"

See all of the "*". Those weren't there when I typed it. Either the moderators or the UBB program can sensor whatever they want. It is their board, period.

Should they? That is up to them. Should they delete a loaded question or should they answer it? It is their board and their rules.

Personally, I don't like the current status of the Panamorph program at all. It just smells funny and the numbers, dates and qtys really don't seam to add up. CES was 6 months ago. Did anyone expect not to have the unit by now?

But those are my opinions and hunchs and I am reaching them based on the limited amount of info that I get here. I have never spoken privately with either Shawn or Alan except the one time when I preordered my panamorph with Alan.

I wish I knew the inside scoup, but what can you do.

**** happens.

-Mr. Wigggles


The Mothership is now boarding.
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Hey Sore Eyes,

Maybe the reason the thread you spoke of was yanked so fast was that it was easier than Alan addressing my concerns in the thread just prior to yours. (Alan previously addressed another dissatisfied customer.)

Here it is again in case Alan didn't get a chance to see it the first time....

Originally posted by Alan Gouger:

You said youd be happy if Shawn sent it Now in what ever stage its in, your sick of waiting.

You know its not done yet.
With all due respect Alan, we DON'T know "it's not done yet". Shawn specifically stated on 6/25 (2001) that "we are shipping the P751.." http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/006932.html

So, if they ARE shipping, wouldn't that imply that the design, testing, improvements, de-bugging, etc., are done? In fact, to me, "we are shipping" implies that they're packing them in boxes and handing them to UPS drivers. Granted, they're shipping piecemeal as they come off the line, but why then are the MAJORITY of the pre-buyers not being notified and having their shipping addresses confirmed, as we were told to expect months ago?

More to the point, if they "are shipping", why would receiving one now mean that it comes [with bugs] and no warrantee, as you told Jim? Either it's ready or not. And "we are shipping" implies that it's ready.

So what's the story? Are they "shipping", or are we just getting more smoke blown up our ass? As it's been a week since Shawn's last update, I think him disclosing the assembly rate and completion schedule would be a wise gesture.

A perfected product.. fine. Production flaws... understood. A refund if we're dissatisfied..OK. But don't ******** us on the shipping. That could make for VERY bad Cygnus press coverage OUTSIDE of this forum.

As always, I welcome comments from those who think I'm too busy flaming and name calling to make a valid point (that's your cue Joe Floyd).



I Work For Walt Disney, So I Must Be Good.
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As moderator it is tough on where to draw the line.

I try to do my best. One thing as a human that bothers me is when I ask someone who has posted their opinion and had their say to please lets not beat a dead horse.

You keep going. You ask me to leave this post. I left the last one. You did not respect my decision at all. Hear you go again.

I responded about this to you yesterday.

You have to keep going. This is now closed.

Shawn responded to you yesterday and offered you your refund. Now what's wrong!!!

Give us a break already.

The thread will remain closed but will remain for everyone to read.

To everyone contact Shawn directly. I'm keeping this off the board thanks to curtain people beating this to death even after they were responded to and their request were met.


Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
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