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Musical?

1454 Views 15 Replies 11 Participants Last post by deneb, Feb 13, 2008

caeguy

Discussion Starter · Jan 18, 2008

I've decided to purchase an Aperion speaker setup but I am considering a different sub than the S10 although this is not cast in stone.

I've done some research when comparing the HSU STF-2/VTF-1 and SVS PB10; my only 2 subs I'm considering for my 18x13x8 room. The specs favor the SVS but I have read many times that the HSU subs are more "musical". What exactly does this mean? What would I be missing if I went with the SVS sub? It appears that if I went with the HSU, I may miss lower frequencies as that sub goes down to 20 easily with more output.

Thanks in advance.

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

Jakeman02

· #2 · Jan 18, 2008

Both are great subs and by far a better choice than the S10.

What most mean by more musical is articulation in the mid and upper bass frequencies which is more favorable for music.

Lower extension you won't miss anything with either of them but the PB10 will give you slightly more output down low.

Ethan Winer

· #3 · Jan 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by caeguy /forum/post/12851027

I have read many times that the HSU subs are more "musical". What exactly does this mean?

It means nothing at all. There are only four parameters needed to define everything about audio, and those are all that's needed for subwoofers too:

* Frequency response

* Distortion

* Noise

* Time-based issues

Anything else is just audiophile magazine writer silliness - pace, rhythm, musical, and so forth are all meaningless terms.

--Ethan

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spyboy

· #4 · Jan 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer /forum/post/12858136

It means nothing at all. There are only four parameters needed to define everything about audio, and those are all that's needed for subwoofers too:

* Frequency response

* Distortion

* Noise

* Time-based issues

Anything else is just audiophile magazine writer silliness - pace, rhythm, musical, and so forth are all meaningless terms.

--Ethan

I am in agreement with you. When it comes to subwoofers, low frequency extension, output, linearity (FR), and THD (below 10%), compression, are what matters.

Some times "musical" ends up meaning a subwoofer that has little response below ~25Hz.

deneb

· #5 · Jan 18, 2008

Any sub in a lousy room with a bad peak will sound muddy and bloated, no matter how 'musical' it is rumored to be. Many subs can sound very 'musical' when properly integrated into a properly treated room.

caeguy

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 18, 2008

Boy, this is not easy to select a ID sub. Maybe I just need to try one out. I'm sure it will sound find my non-audiophile ears.

There is something that tells me that I should be selecting a sub, by specs, that have a flat response that goes deep for HT. SVS seems to fit the bill if we throw out the "musical" term.

pdadi

· #7 · Jan 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer /forum/post/12858136

It means nothing at all. There are only four parameters needed to define everything about audio, and those are all that's needed for subwoofers too:

* Frequency response

* Distortion

* Noise

* Time-based issues

Anything else is just audiophile magazine writer silliness - pace, rhythm, musical, and so forth are all meaningless terms.

--Ethan

i agree but for that one has look at ikka tests at Htshack and avtalk. Very extensive testing.

mel22b

· #8 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb /forum/post/12859019

Any sub in a lousy room with a bad peak will sound muddy and bloated, no matter how 'musical' it is rumored to be. Many subs can sound very 'musical' when properly integrated into a properly treated room.

This is what I have...good times. Do you think a little lower power 8" good quality sub would help? (Current Sub SVS SB12)

lalakersfan34

· #9 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel22b /forum/post/13054263

This is what I have...good times. Do you think a little lower power 8" good quality sub would help? (Current Sub SVS SB12)

No, getting a low powered 8" sub won't help. The SB12 is a VERY "musical" sub. If you're saying you have a big nasty peak in your FR, use the SB12's PEQ and tame it! Measure your FR and when you find the peak, use the built in EQ to bring it down. It should help immensely.

croseiv

· #10 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer /forum/post/12858136

It means nothing at all. There are only four parameters needed to define everything about audio, and those are all that's needed for subwoofers too:

* Frequency response

* Distortion

* Noise

* Time-based issues

Anything else is just audiophile magazine writer silliness - pace, rhythm, musical, and so forth are all meaningless terms.

--Ethan

Amen bro!

ssteel01

· #11 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 /forum/post/13055205

No, getting a low powered 8" sub won't help. The SB12 is a VERY "musical" sub. If you're saying you have a big nasty peak in your FR, use the SB12's PEQ and tame it! Measure your FR and when you find the peak, use the built in EQ to bring it down. It should help immensely.

Well, I'll qualify this by saying that someone like Ethan Winter has probably forgotten more about acoustics than I'll ever learn...but, for my 2 cents, although the EQ will help, it won't get you all the way to where you want to be. You'll pretty much have to treat the room, especially if it's a particularly nasty peak(s) that need to be EQ'd. EQ is great for knocking down the offending peaks, but I don't think it really addresses ringing. In my limited experience, beating down low frequency ringing has really added to the "musicality" of bass in my room, probably moreso than just flattening FR. I wouldn't have described it as bloated or sloppy before, but I can really hear a difference now and it very definitely correlates with a reduction in LF decay times. And I still have a long way to go...

Again, if I'm off my nut, I'm sure Ethan or someone with a bit more saavy than myself will step in and smack me.

Scott

lalakersfan34

· #12 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteel01 /forum/post/13055416

Well, I'll qualify this by saying that someone like Ethan Winter has probably forgotten more about acoustics than I'll ever learn...but, for my 2 cents, although the EQ will help, it won't get you all the way to where you want to be. You'll pretty much have to treat the room, especially if it's a particularly nasty peak(s) that need to be EQ'd. EQ is great for knocking down the offending peaks, but I don't think it really addresses ringing. In my limited experience, beating down low frequency ringing has really added to the "musicality" of bass in my room, probably moreso than just flattening FR. I wouldn't have described it as bloated or sloppy before, but I can really hear a difference now and it very definitely correlates with a reduction in LF decay times. And I still have a long way to go...

Again, if I'm off my nut, I'm sure Ethan or someone with a bit more saavy than myself will step in and smack me.

Scott

Agreed. Treatments would most certainly make a large improvement, and I shouldn't have overlooked it. I guess I was just specifically addressing his thought of going to a smaller or different sub. The SB12+ is well-regarded for music reproduction, and it would be silly not to use the PEQ that's built in to at least help improve FR. But if you can do so, treatments should help immensely.

ssteel01

· #13 · Feb 8, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 /forum/post/13055609

Agreed. Treatments would most certainly make a large improvement, and I shouldn't have overlooked it. I guess I was just specifically addressing his thought of going to a smaller or different sub. The SB12+ is well-regarded for music reproduction, and it would be silly not to use the PEQ that's built in to at least help improve FR. But if you can do so, treatments should help immensely.

Yeah...also agreed. If you've got a PEQ, use it. And trading to a smaller sub is...well...that's just insanity.

I completely agree w/ what you were saying, but just wanted to add that the pursuit of that concept of fast/tight/musical (whatever you want to call it) bass is at least as much a function of the room as it is the sub itself.

Scott

mel22b

· #14 · Feb 13, 2008

I went on holiday...

I used the PEQ to take out the biggest problem area and it helped a ton. Problem is that I have a few high spots. My room is terrible and my placement is terrible. I think I just need to move to a larger place with a dedicated theatre room.

My buddy has a high end 8" sub I am going to try out.

Thanks for the info.

mojomike

· #15 · Feb 13, 2008

There is no "high end" 8" sub I know of which is a better sub than a SB12. It's not likely to solve your problem.

deneb

· #16 · Feb 13, 2008

If your room is terrible and your placement is terrible, a different sub will have absolutely no effect. You need to treat your room and experiment with your sub's placement. PEQ works fine for reducing a peak at the listening position (1ft either side of your listening position might still have the large peak) but bass traps will aid greatly in evening out your FR throughout your room.

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