[Bernie]

Hi all!


I have been lurking around for a while and, like many of you, waited for CEDIA to make my big decision. Well, CEDIA has come and gone and my choices in the $5,000 to $7,000 range may be a little larger due to reduced costs of some projectors but are otherwise unchanged. The absence of groundbreaking products at my price point is very good news to me. I now feel fairly comfortable making that first big leap into the world of front projection. The projector I buy will inevitable become obsolete but at least not immediately.


I have viewed several DLP’s, and a couple of LCD’s already but none at great length. I have been following your comments with great interest for over a year. Even though I have never seen it, my first choice has always been the JVC SX-21 with the anamorphic lens. I like it for having no rainbows, long throw, silky smooth picture and engaging colors. Unfortunately, after a year of wanting it, it is still out of my price range and therefore is eliminated (thanks for nothing JVC). Also, I have ruled out all LCD products due to the annoying screendoor.


This leaves DLP. For the most part, I found that I could find rainbows if I wanted to but that they did not bother me. When looking for rainbows, I did feel eye fatigue, however. So I am a bit concerned about the potential for headaches and fatigue that may accompany extended viewing. Otherwise, I have been pleased with the DLP’s I have seen.


My DLP shortlist kind of looks like (in no particular order) this:


Infocus Screenplay LP7200

Sharp Z10000 – refurbished with full warranty.

Benq PE8700 -

Immersive Virtuoso – if still around

Studio Experience 50HD –


Please note that the shortlisted projectors are similar in that they are all HD2 DLP’s and all are available NOW from just below $5,000 to just below $6,000. The Sharp and Benq are my frontrunners.


To assist / sway my final decision, please help me identify those distinguishing factors that make projector “A†a better bet than projector “Bâ€. I am well aware of their contrasts, brightness and throw distance. My room is 12 ft by 20 ft; I intend to sit at distances of 12 and 16 feet from an 8 ft wide screen. My room is light controlled. Intended sources are DVD, HDTV and standard definition. I am using a Denon 1600 DVD player and Time Warner HD compatible cable at this time. I may want to switch from cable to Direct TV because cable quality is not great. I will probably stay with the Denon DVD player another year. I watch mostly movies and sports. The issues (again, in no particular order) foremost on my mind are:


Potential for negative DLP side effects associated with each projector.

Are all fully DVI / HDCP compliant and does it really matter?

Noise issues and relationship to throw / ability to mask noise.

De-interlacing

Quality, reliability and service

User friendliness

Bugs and quirks


I hope that I have provided sufficient information to enable you to assist me with my decision. I believe that there are many others in the same decision boat as I. So your comments should be of substantial value to many. I understand that similar threads have been presented in the past. However, I think this one is unique in that I have selected a very narrow group, in terms of cost, performance and type, of projectors to consider and specific issues to comment on. In addition, all projectors have been around a while. Therefore, the body of viewer experience should be sufficient enough to make some fair comparisons.


I will anxiously wait for your comments. Thanks,


Bernie

 

[Phat Phreddy]

I am pulling the trigger on the Sharp 10k (possibly one of those refurbs depending on talking with them)... My reasons for this are price and throw, not much fits into my room and the Sharp will do and is several thousands cheaper than the Yamaha or Sim models.

 

[Bernie]

Phat, thanks for your input. However, I just pulled the trigger on the Benq PE8700. My decision was based on the tradeoff between contrast and lumens, warranty, return policy and generally positive report absent of any big negatives.


Although I can fully control lighting, it is nice to have sufficient brightness for ambient light viewing of football games and other material. I think the 2000:1 contrast and 1,000 lumen brightness is nearly the optimal combination provided by a current HD2 product for my environment and viewing.


The Benq comes with a wonderful warranty and the online seller / distributor is located nearby and offers a no hassle return policy without restocking fee should I not be fully satisfied. This minimizes risk should I be less than fully satisfied.


Overall, the Benq has been received very well. It has been easily compared to some PJ’s that street for a much higher price. While going through various reviews and reports, I noted no major drawbacks in the products performance or integration.


If I am not fully satisfied with the contrast, build quality and/or noise / throw distance issues, I may very well return this projector and pick up the Sharp Z10000 too. Since the Sharp is normally a more expensive product with a proven track record, I believe that I may recover a greater portion of purchase price should I resale and upgrade down the road. I will certainly consider this if the Benq or DLP is not everything I want to live with for the next few years.


Bernie

 

[Robert Holloway]

Bernie,


You did not give us much chance to help


My message to you would be that you cannot make a real decision without seeing the PJ. The specs don't even account for half the picture. I've read wildly different opinions from people on the forum on just about every PJ. unfortunately many people have a real need to defend their own decison with endless glowing comments about the specific model.


The DLP headache fatigue thing for me has been an ongoing issue. It has plagued just about every DLP session. That said, i've seen wonderful images on DLP's (Dwin TV3 being the best - but with fatique). InFocus 7200 was my second best - very close, but no fatigue.


I cannot really advise you because i have not seen all the PJ's.


Strangely enough I am about to buy the JVC SX21 with ISCOII lens.


Good luck

Rob

 

[Bernie]

Rob,


Thanks. I have always enjoyed reading your posts.


I agree, you can’t really tell about a projector until you see it. However, I am too busy to spend much time courting the various projectors. The Benq is like a foreign bride; full of promise and full of unknown. She is easy and willing to come home. Hopefully we will spend some quality time together. If she doesn’t have an ugly mole someplace, is good in bed and good in the kitchen, I’ll marry her. Otherwise, she is going right back on the boat.


DLP side affects are a very big concern since I am unsure if my wife (real wife, also a foreign bride) or I are susceptible to them. For this reason, the SX-21 was my first choice. The viewing experience must be pleasurable. There is absolutely no reason to put up with headaches. Also, I am confident that the wonderful colors and resolution will make up for reduced blacks. I hope you enjoy your SX-21 very much. If Miss Benq doesn’t wow me and the SX-21 price drops a little more, I may still end up with one too.


Bernie

 

[wantin'atheater]

My situation is almost identicelto Bernie's except my theater will be a few feet wider. I too watch only DVD's and sports and I am anticipating Comcast HD in my area by the end of the year.


I have narrowed my projector choices to the same few as Bernie with the exception of the NEC HT1000 and soon to be released Optima H76 instead of the Immersive and Benq that Bernie ultimately selected.


Bernie -


Let us know how the BenQ works. Maybe I'll add that to my short list.


Everyone else -


please continue to give input on these projectors

 

[smithb]

Maybe the benefits of CEDIA are starting to be reflected in pricing. I just noticed a site that has consistently had the Sharp 10K (new US model) at the same discounted price for the last 6 months, drop the price by $800. This price is now $400 less then the best deal I found last April.


Sign of good things to come for those getting ready to pull the trigger.

 

[Bernie]

Buy! Buy! Buy!


Wantin'atheater, I really wanted to include the HT1000 in my shortlist but it would not work with my low 8 ft high ceilings the way I like. However, the price is incredible and certainly nobody is complaining about their decision to buy.

 

[drapp1952]

I just bought a BenQ. My viewing situation is 14 ft. away from an 8' wide 1 gain matte screen with a low ceiling in a dark room. I am coming from living with 7" CRT for about a decade.


Being a short-throw pj, the BenQ hangs directly over my head at about 1.66 times screen width. This relates to the only significant problem I have with the pj so far: it is not a quiet projector. There is no high whine but more a white noise or slightly lower frequency sound that is intrusive for me in quieter scenes and not helped at all by the fact that it cycles quite noticeably between two fan speeds every 5-15 seconds. I will need to build a hushbox for it.


Otherwise, IMO this HD2 performs very well, using D1 input in particular. (I have no HD sources yet, but will.) I find the pq best with elevated contrast and lowered brightness settings versus defaults. I like to use "Vertical Limit" superbit DVD currently as a source to get nice definition in varying snow patterns without crushing and the cave scenes for acceptable black levels. There are enough lumens available to manage this leaving a very viewable picture with good contrast and a fairly good black level. Black levels are not of CRT quality, naturally, but quite viewable. It is a picture I can easily see living with until 1080p becomes affordable in a few years.

 

[kiwishred]

Interesting observation about the BenQ noise because this Secrets review speculated that, at

Brent

 

[drapp1952]

I haven't got a decibel level meter, but it ain't quiet compared with my CRT that was less obtrusive at least, and it was sitting at my feet. The BenQ starts out very quiet but cranks up before long. I've been told other pjs have cycling fans but the changing noise draws your attention to it. I've sent a request to BenQ about this, wondering but not expecting if a firmware change could address this.


I figure the hassle of a hushbox is the price of owning this otherwise very fairly priced pj.

 

[Bernie]

drapp1952,


thanks for your input. Knowing which direction I need to go to dial the Benq in will help me to quickly start appreciating it. Can you tell me what specific brightness and contrast settings you are using. I can only put 4 hours on the lamp before making a keep a return decision.


If I understand the noise issue with this projector correctly, it is not that it is absolutely very noisy, rather it is the constant cycling between two speeds and the accompanying change in pitch. Is this true?


The Benq is rated at less than 30 dB. The Sharp is rated at 32dB. Does anyone think the Sharp is quieter despite higher dB rating. Also, how much difference will it make to have a Sharp placed 3-5 ft behind and above primary sitting position versus Benq placed 2-4 ft in front of primary sitting position? Seems like things would be more or less equal.


Bernie

 

[drapp1952]

From the "Secrets" review:


"The 8700 starts up very very quiet, but after it warms up a bit, the fan speed increases and then typically cycles between two speeds every 15 to 30 seconds or so. With the projector mounted on a table in the middle of our seating area this was noticeable and a bit distracting in quiet scenes."


Exactly, with the exception of the cycling occurring every 5-30 seconds depending presumably on thermostat readings that apparently were varying a lot, and not predictably. OTOH, if you have the pj more than three feet away directly above your head, or if you like to listen to movies with constant sound action and/or at loud levels, the distraction may be acceptable for you. When I turned it up a bit and put on AOTC with its fairly constant background music, etc. the noise was not so intrusive and I could sense myself "adjusting" to the noise. IMO the cycling, ever-changing noise is what really makes the hushbox a necessity. After I'm done, I suppose my BenQ will look like an Optoma H76 from the outside.


Regarding picture settings, first of all, I have a black ceiling, dark carpet and even strategically placed black velvet in the room to minimize reflections to the screen. Remember, I have almost exclusively used my Bravo D1 so far for viewing (two days worth) so I don't know how universal these settings will be but a brief viewing of DTV SD satellite didn't reveal any imbalances with the tweaked settings. I'll check again tonight.


With the default settings what I see is a fairly washed out appearing picture reminiscent of the HT1000 with uncalibrated D1 DVI input. (So, again, these settings may be D1 specific but I'll recheck tonight and post again for other sources.) I use brightness settings in the 18-22 range and contrast up around 20-24 on my 1 gain matte screen, 96" wide. Color: around or at 36. Color temp: +2. The "filter" with D1 is on or off with no discernable effect. I've left color controls for RBG and yellow at default. Sharpness is at default or zero. (I don't perceive much green deficit or slight red push that Steve Smallcombe does in his secrets review, but I'll try his small tweaks tonight. I definitely don't see a sharpness problem with zero, but would not use any lower settings.)


I do want to emphasize that this is a very good pj. It represents a huge leap in quality from my ol' CRT. For just one example, going from seeing only a few stars in space scenes in AOTC no matter what I tried with the CRT to many hundreds of "perfectly converged" pin-points of light was incredible.

 

[Messiah]

Yeah, the Sharp may well be just 32dB, but at about 10m. I have the Z10k and was expecting it to be nice and quiet. Boy was I wrong. It measures >42dB at 1m from the exhaust vent. When you consider that every 3dB increase is in effect doubling the noise then this is 4 times louder than a 30dB pj. Don't let anyone fool you that the Sharp is a quiet performer cos it ain't.


Fantastic image quality (jaw-dropping) but noisy. Watch out for those quieter scenes cos even after a few months of ownership I keep looking at the ceiling during the quieter scenes in movies. Grrrr.....

 

[ckolchak]

you fellas just set my mind at ease on my choice.

next to resolution, my biggest nitpick with my last pj was the noise level.

the HT1000 in comparison was whisper quiet in eco mode.

as much as i'm disappointed in missing out on the extra pixels, the picture it throws is good enough not to take me out of the movie i'm watching.

projector noise would though- no matter how nice the picture was.


i was going to hold off and wait a month to see about any movement on the HD2 prices, but i think this just made up my mind.

 

[Bernie]

drapp1952


that's really good info. I will give those settings a tryout. In my inexperienced opinion, building a hush box would seem like a relatively simple task. Since I opted not to buy a PJ mount bracket at this time, I may end up building a combination mount / hush box.


My room presently has a white ceiling, white tile and tan satin paint walls. An oriental carpet covers much of the floor but I know that stray light will be a major problem nonetheless. Plan to repaint walls in a flat terra cotta color. The ceiling is another issue. I kind of like to keep it white since it is a multipurpose room. One idea I am considering is to spray the center of the ceiling, including the bulk of the projector path, is a darker flat color and fade away to the flat white near the walls.


How long are the cables included with the Benq?


Messiah,


I guess I will not select the Sharp to reduce noise. Also, while the throw is longer than most, it is still not long enough for me to mount behind my back wall 20 ft away. My garage is behind the back wall, so that would have worked great. However, of all projectors considered, only the JVC SX-21 had long enough throw to do this. Many have commented on the nice image of the Sharp and it remains an option should the Benq not work out.


Thanks much for your comments,


Bernie

 

[Bernie]

ckolchak,


I would feel pretty secure about going with the HT-1000. It is priced great, with or without an anamorphic lens it does 16:9 well and it's probably the best native 4:3 digital projector out there for most people, regardless of money. In a few years it will be easy to find great used 16:9 projectors for HT. Although there will still be much 4:3 material available, great 4:3 digital projectors may be much harder to find. This should help maintain the value of the HT-1000 as a niche market item.


Of course, this is just the unprofessional and inexperienced opinion of someone with two top of the line vintage turntables and a wall full of stuff to spin on them.


Bernie

 

[drapp1952]

Bernie,


The settings I gave you did turn out to be what works for me with the D1. If you use any other input sources you should use those found in the "Secrets" review. Smallcombe used a contrast setting of 18 and and brightess of 32 with his non-D1 sources and those worked well for progressive DVD and other sources. I used a brightness setting of 18 and contrast setting of 21 or so for the D1.


Tonight I've been watching 2.35 movies, and nothing as bright as "Vertical Limit" in 1.85, and the BenQ's fan is not cycling as much. Still, with quiet scenes it is too noticeable, even though I feel I've adapted a bit to the noise and feel tonight that I can put off making a hushbox for a little while longer than I planned last night.


The DVI cable included with the BenQ is about 6' long.


The HT1000 is a quieter pj. But if you don't have light control that could be a real issue. It will always be an issue with anything less than a high lumen output pj, and dark scenes especially will not look good with any front pj with light leaking on the screen.

 

[Robert Holloway]

Bernie


Great thread


Our roooms , color and rugs are very similar!


Please tell me your turntables are Linn Sondek's

I'm a Naim guy myself

Rob

 

[Robert2413]

Quote:

Originally posted by Messiah When you consider that every 3dB increase is in effect doubling the noise then this is 4 times louder than a 30dB pj.

It is correct that 3 dB doubles the noise power. However, a subjective (psychoacoustic) doubling of loudness requires an increase of 6 to 10 dB, depending on the individual.