[Bjoern Roy]

Sorry for the delay, folks. I know a lot of you were anticipating this for several days now. Although i had a tide schedule, i always felt the chilling breath back down my spine. I tried to keep it short, but heck, who am i trying to fool here, you know me by now


Go to my homepage (signature) -> 'SPL Measurement' -> 'TPM'.


This is about sound only, there is already another thread about my picture review.


Have fun.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Very interesting stuff, excellent work. Another who likes the DVD sound.


So how does this objective information jive with the "vast differences" in the mixes/LFE that many folks are reportedly hearing, aside from the level differences (which have been acknowledged already)?

Seems like it doesn't.

 

[KennyG]

Excellent work.

As I stated in Badonthemon's thread about R1 vs R2, many people get fooled into think the louder ST is the better one, when in fact the only difference is overall volume.

I suspected that was the case here, and am glad it is...now we don't have to worry about a reissue.

Again nice work.

 

[CKNA]

Bjoern Roy,


Excellent work, simply amazing. Maybe this will end this absurd of LD sounding better than DVD. I also own both LD and DVD and prefer DVD soundtrack slightly because of tighter bass.

 

[RobertR]

Excellent work, Bjoern. As I indicated in another thread on HTF, this clearly shows that the "vast differences" claimed by some in favor of the LD have more to do with psychoacoustics than any actual technical difference.

 

[Frank J Manrique]

Bjoern,


Thank you, Sir! You have saved my sanity!!


Now, I knew Tom Vodhanel's measurements were accurate (as presented in SVS' site), yet needed to see your results to finally confirm what I already suspected as both measuring approaches seem to reach the same conclusion: the DVD has the same frequency response as the LD's, albeit with amplitude levels that vary between the two soundtracks, as you so adroitly illustrate.


My aural perceptions closely match the data presented by both you and Tom, so I can now rest my mind and cease wondering about the LD's track, which I've never heard.


In terms of bass performance, the track kicks major butt as presented by the SVS 46/16 subwoofer octet. But it goes way beyond merely bass content; the rest of the spectrum is as spectacular sounding as is the bass region. One hell of a soundtrack!...


-THTS

 

[David600]

well, well, well.......... ggggggggg


Bjoern, you hit the points beautifully again.


now, the frequency response issue is tackled and settled. ok.


seems Titan AE beats everyone (the ice scene is just eartquake-like).



the amplitude: 7-9dB lower than the laserdisc, perhaps 5 or dB lower than the typical "demo" dvds ..... is this such a good thing?


While I'm sort of convinced raising the volume by approximatively the same 7-9dB will match the volume pressure of the laserdisc, I'm not so convinced on the absence of effects on the receiver or processor and power amps in the system. headroom? distorsion?

negligeable effect or not ?


Generally, when dialnorm is an issue as on some Columbia dvds or maybe on some other studios dvds, compensating on the volume knob by the displayed offset on the receiver or processor does not always ( generally, never) solve the "issue".


also, I generally prefer to LOWER the volume knob because a dvd soundtrack is loud or too loud rather than trying the opposite. Interestingly, in audio, it's always better to have a good unclipped signal fed to processors and amplifiers and raise the volume knobs or gain controls rather than having a "too high" signal. could it have been the issue ? nah, why so lower than the usual action movies, which pose no problem of this sort then ?


but it's good to see that the mix used seems to be the same as for the laserdisc.


Gosh, do I prefer the dts tracks just for all the above reasons: 0dB, no dialnorm, no cooking down, and thus most of the time, a "freeer" sound, whitout that often heard "laid back" presence....


With encoding level issues, it's easier for us to reduce an "excess" than trying to recreate a missing amplitude. As long as it's 2-3dB, ok, but 7-9db? or 8dB of excessive dialnorm ? no.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Wow, the objective analysis really seems to have killed this subject.

 

[RobertR]

Yeah, it did the same thing on HTF, Jack.

 

[Frank J Manrique]

That is why I love objectivism...it takes all the silly guess work out of the equation!


Great job, Bjoern!...


-THTS

 

[Chad Varnadore]

Bjoern, that's simply an awesome site you've got going there. Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly and intelligibly showcase the audio and video portions of this disc. It was a GREAT read.


Chad

 

[RobertR]

Boy, I agree with your philosophy, Frank

 

[David600]

Hi Robert


only psychoaccoustic? I pretty much imagine one reason of this "7-9db (!!!) cooking down" has been to better accomodate the mass of the TPM market, where many don't have 5.1 high capabilities if any (so many people prefer to listen to 5.1 in stereo or dolby surround if they can't decode 5.1 rather than to the 2.0 track).


TPM dvd was intended firstly at the same vhs target market.


but that is only my sarcastic opinion. gggggg

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Quote:

? I pretty much imagine one reason of this "7-9db (!!!) cooking down" has been to better accomodate the mass of the TPM market, where many don't have 5.1 high capabilities if any (so many people prefer to listen to 5.1 in stereo or dolby surround if they can't decode 5.1 rather than to the 2.0 track).

I'm not so good on the technical, but how does a lower level "accomodate" listening to stereo instead of 5.1? How does it accomodate anyone, really?

Quote:

TPM dvd was intended firstly at the same vhs target market.

Good point. I think this is the primary reason that, even if the mixes are identical, the LD is "perceived" to have the many advantages listed.

 

[rudolpht]

Facts are facts, that's fine. But subjectively I like the LD soundtrack better (not so the picture or Japanese subtitles). I'll still keep the LD with the middle trilogy also on LD, but I'll likely watch the DVD despite the "less loose" bass.


Tim

 

[KennyG]

There is nothing to worry about when it comes to "clipping" here, to understand how clipping happens, and why, you have to understand the audio chain.

First a low audio signal is just that, the output for the DVD player to the pre/pro in a "normal" signal is, lets say 500 mv...that 500mv is then processed by the pre/pro and "attenuated" to a volume level that you set, in this case lets say 2 volts out of the pre/pro to the amps, and this 2 volts is reached at the mid setting on your pre/pro volume knob...call it 5.

Now we put in TPM, the DVD's voltage output drops to 400mv, to get that same 2 volts out of the pre/pro we simply set our pre/pro volume knob up to a higher point...maybe 7...but ouput voltage stays the same, it's nothing to worry about.

That 2 volt pre/pro output will produce the exact same electrical effect on the amplifiers reguardless of volume knob position.

Pre-amps and pre/pros don't work the same as an amplifier...they have amplifier sections, but their volume knobs are actually Attenuators. Just a small point to keep in mind.

 

[RobertR]

Quote:

that is only my sarcastic opinion

An opinion not supported by the objective facts. As indicated in KennyG's post, simply turning up the volume (which is all you have to do to match levels) equalizes the levels, and does NOT cause clipping.



In effect, you're making the rather ludicrous argument that the "VHS market" (by the way, I'd like to see you read Frank Manrique's description of his system and what he got from the DVD and tell me THAT setup is part of the "VHS market") never heard of a device called a "volume control".

 

[David600]

Jack


add the fact that the EE added during the preparation of the dvd also aims at giving the mass consumers the impression of increased sharpness too. Perhaps even more so when played on a 4:3 tv, while not being as disturbing when played on a quality 16:9 tvs ( not sure about that ).

As for cooking down, I think ( I can be wrong ) that lower encoded levels are better downconverted to stereo listening than high amplitude levels , such as on the ld or on dts dvds maybe.

Also, the mass of the market has no big gear capable to handle the deep bass of the original track. Let's not forget the aim of the release was to maximize sales, up to 17M discs have been pressed I read.


Rudolph: the ld is also the only faithfull representation of the theatrical cut. I wonder why Lucas did not do what was done for the trilogy, which as least exists in its original and edited/"upgraded" versions, though the slightly edited version of TPM is not really problematic I would say ( or is it? Ja jar is still there )


Kenny: not so sure the volume knobs on receivers (I say receivers) work exactly as attenuators on pro amps/pro gear.



regards

 

[David600]

Hi Robert


politeness never kills.


As for Frank's setup, you mention it. Why? Is there a single element in my post making you believe I pointed at his set up? Frank is an internet friend and has a killer system, DEFINITELY not representative of the vhs market at which tpm dvd aims at.


And this forum CERTAINLY does not represent the "vhs market" consumers at all. To the contrary.


So, what point do U want to make ?


I'm a fair fan of Star Wars (ESB especially) and have done my contribution to the Lucas corporation (the two THX big laserdiscs boxes, the Japanese LD and some models 15years ago).


To that extent, I feel the right to display my criticism as far as TPM dvd is concerned. Especially given the results after more than 2 years of waiting ( I won't even go again on the subject of the Trilogy not on dvd.... )

 

[RobertR]

Quote:

not so sure the volume knobs on receivers (I say receivers) work exactly as attenuators on pro amps/pro gear.

An attentuator is an attentuator, whether it's on a separate preamp (which is what I assume you meant by "pro gear") or on a receiver (I wonder if you think a Denon 5800 receiver is aimed at the "VHS market").