AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,


I don't visit here much and am an infrequent poster, but I wanted to give you all my impressions of the 55" F8000 set I saw at the Value Electronics shootout; I attended and got to vote. I DO NOT WORK FOR OR SELL ANY OF THESE COMPANY'S PRODUCTS; this is just my opinion.


Here are the results: http://tc-p65zt60.com/uploads/VE_2013_Shootout_Results.pdf


As a disclosure, I went to this event fully expecting to walk out with a ZT60 because of everything I've read on these forums and others. After the event, I think the ZT60 was the third-worst TV there (ahead of the WT60 total disaster and the lousy Sony 4k model).


Honestly, I thought the LED F8000 was the best looking TV out of all of them. It clearly had worse black levels than the plasmas, but had much better black levels than either the Sony or Panasonic sets. Both the Sony and Panasonic LED sets were absolute garbage in comparison to the Samsung across the board, so much so that the WT60 was a running joke amongst everyone; yes the Sony was a 4k TV but it didn't make any difference, still bad, and both of these after what would cost a consumer $500 to calibrate their set. The experts even used $10,000 meters to do the calibration, so I'm sure they did it right.


Everyone there (including the experts) had a bias in favor of Plasma TVs (some for good reasons), but I convinced some of them that the LED Samsung was better at least in some respects. I learned from the experts there the reason why the LED looked better to me: an LCD has a static gamma (in this case 2.4 as per the calibration) whereas plasmas by design have dynamic gamma; according to the experts, the gamma can vary from the high 1.x's to the high 2.x's. When playing Dark Knight, ALL of the plasmas were crushing black detail. There was a good amount of very dark detail lost on all the plasmas that showed up just fine on the Samsung LED. Granted, the black levels were noticably more "grey" than the plasmas (not by a huge amount), but the overall picture just looked better to me on the Samsung LED. Color accuracy was better on the Samsung LED to the point where it was the only TV that matched or surpassed the Kuro in color fidelity; I even emailed Robert about that to say that the color accuracy scores for the Samsung LED were far lower than they should have been - easily a 9...I may have given it a 10. The Samsung LED did very well in the artificial tests (spears & munsen, a custom disc by David Mackenzie), then they put on a basketball game in between tests. I pointed out to everyone around me that the Samsung LED looked the best by far in this scenario, and I didn't hear any objections.


Overall, if you're watching movies in a pitch-black room, the Samsung F8500 plasma is probably the TV to get. Anything other than near-perfect darkness and the Samsung LED is best. Oh and they went over the user interface of all the TVs, and...holy crap the Samsung's is so slick, colorful, and pretty! Not really all that important, but a nice feather in our cap if you buy one.


The Panasonic plasmas had an annoying flicker on some content that drove me and a guy sitting next to me absolutely crazy; the TVs were unwatchable. The Samsung plasma did not have such an issue. The ZT60 was the worst of the 3 because it had a max light output of 30 fL, the VT60 had a max of 40 fL, and the Samsung had a max of 67 fL. In a bright room, neither panasonic plasma was more than decent. The ZT60 and VT60 had identical black levels according to the experts there (they measured them at 0.0013 or something along those lines). The Samsung's black levels were ever so slightly greyer, but without TVs in a ***** black room AND right next to each other, you'd never tell the difference. In addition, if you look at very dark content up close on a plasma, it has a fuzziness to it; this was clear on every plasma there. This was important to me because I'll only be sitting 6 feet or so from the TV, so that's not acceptable in my environment.


The motion performance of the plasmas was better than the Samsung LED only with interlaced content, so if that's important to you, you should go for the Samsung plasma. Note I'm comparing with 240hz enabled on the Samsung LED.


Just my opinion, obviously, but I spent 5 hours there looking over 7 sets sitting right next to each other all of which were calibrated by the best guys in the industry, so I think I'm on very good footing. I disagree with most of the final scores; I shouldn't have told Robert I agreed with most of them...I was trying to be nice and not belittle his event which was a GREAT EVENT! If you can make it to Scarsdale, NY next year, GO! Robert is an amazing guy to deal with and he knows all the best guys in the industry including all the best engineers at Panasonic and Samsung, so he can offer insight that no one else can.


Here's my list in order of awesomeness (1 is best, 7 is worst):

  1. Samsung LED
  2. Samsung Plasma
  3. Pioneer Kuro
  4. VT60
  5. ZT60
  6. Sony 4k LED
  7. Panasonic WT60
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
Thank you for the effort to see the Shootout in person and to give us your review.


You mentioned plasma "fuzzy" blacks. I also sit close to my TVs and see this "fuzziness" not only on blacks, but all the time on every single plasma I've watched. It's one of the main reasons I didn't buy a Kuro or an Elite years ago. As the bearded plasma founder in the Shootout has mentioned more than once, this is an inherent aspect of phosphor-based displays. Some people like this "warmth." I don't. YMMV


p.s. Did you forward this review to RZ? If so, did he reply?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,290 Posts
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I certainly wasn't there, so I didn't see what you did, but I agree the Panasonic looked dreadful from the web broadcast - I was shocked how bad it looked. Just terrible. I think LCD got the shaft there - I think the F8000 deserved much higher scores than it got, and I think it deserved more attention at the shootout. Unfortunately it was obvious fairly early on that all the love was going to be aimed at the plasmas. I will say that if I were looking at a plasma, it would not be a Panasonic.


And yeah, it doesn't affect image quality, but the F8000 menus and interface is all very slick - the built-in image and video player has a stunning interface - very slick and polished.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,697 Posts
Thank you for posting your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated. I had a Panasonic plasma about 4 1/2 years ago. After I bought it I started having major eye issues and headaches. I could hardly watch TV and was even having problems during the day under the lights at work. Went to my Doctor then my eye doctor and finally a ophthalmologist .Never even thought that it might be the TV. Nobody could find out what was going on but something I always noticed was watching TV on my 40" LCD set in the bedroom or my 30" monitor relieved the issue. So on a hunch I sold the 50" plasma and moved the 40" lCD in the living room. Within days all my symptoms were gone. I watched this set for 4 weeks then I finally bought a Samsung UN55B8500 (their last full array backlit set) Have never had another problem. The Doctors and others felt there was something in the plamsa sets that caused this issue with my eyes. So needless to say I won't try another plasma set.


So what I was getting at is I've been looking at getting a larger set to replace the UN55B8500 and almost bought a 60" Sharp Elite late last year (wish I had now) but decided to wait and see what CES and all the new models had to offer and there was talk of a new Elite. I couldn't wait to see the "shootout " this year but was really disappointed when the results came out. All the talk was about plasma this and plasma is the new king. Blah,Blah,Blah. Hardly a mention of the new F8000. I had very high hopes for this set from the initial reviews from CES. I wish it had deeper blacks and I'll wait and see some real world 60" & 65" reviews before I decide what to do. If I thought I could find a good new 60" Elite I would probably buy one now. i asked Robert about getting one but he just said get a F8000 so I don't know if they are all gone or not.


Anyway I really wanted to thank you for your thoughts on the F8000. I still read both current threads here to keep up with issues or owners thoughts so I can make a good decision.


Jim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Could you explain why interlaced content looks bad on LEDs? How exactly does it look bad? All that i could find about interlacing was way above my head as far as a layman goes. What would be interlaced? Netflix, blu rays, DVDs, video games? Sorry, I'm not well versed in the lingo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
This thread has made me feel better about my F8000. After seeing the shootout and all the positive 2013 plasma reviews, I was starting to have buyer's remorse. The shootout was nothing but praise upon praise for the plasma sets. I rarely saw them even look at or discuss the LEDs in the room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,233 Posts
Robert provides a unique event for many years now but lets not forget Panasonic is the primary sponsor and many of the attendee's have been Plasma loyalists. There is an obvious BIAS toward plasma with scoring favoring plasma in ideal environments but I'd love to see these supposed experts place those plasmas in our homes with southern exposure with daytime viewing and THEN score! They'd be destroyed by that F8000 and dozen other LCD's yet they are in DENIAL as to daytime reality and just how much content is viewed in daylight hours.


Viewed this Shootout both nights and couldn't get over how they hid the F8000 from viewers on the lower tier and placed that WT60 putrid LCD above it and the Samsung was blocked and ignored throughout while the few survivors of plasma were given the upfront comparative stage another obvious BIAS favoring the lemming plasma followers. Calibrators seem to have an arrogance that ignores the reality of daytime viewing and luxury homes with tall window spaces and absent a dedicated Home Theater but even then I would not choose a plasma ever again as it feels to two dimensional like a CRT which to my eyes sucks - when I owned a Panasonic plasma it seemed like a CRT with a flatness like a tube TV with tons of reflections while my Sharp had a peering into a window feel and gave more immersive 3D wow factor - I hated the Plasma and could not tolerate it for more than a week and all a calibrator would have done is make it DIMMER as they usually do - I'm sorry but when you leave my home I live with the results and I hate DIM PQ and don't give a hoot what your instruments say it's supposed to be.


No Sharp, LG and limited Sony and Samsung participation to the point where you hide and block the F8000 below that piece of junk WT60 and the extremely low scores demo's this as a Plasma shootout and denies what Consumers feel and favor in consumer choice reality which favors LCD/LED easily and close to putting plasma in it's grave - were the differences so great as these scores suggest the opposite would be true but consumers continue to favor and choose LCD especially in the larger HT sizes. I likely may target the F8000 75" or one of it's cheaper siblings at that size or a Sharp.


The Sony turned out to be a huge disappointment and it seems a 950 series would be far better than this first generation 4K. One would have to surmise that to these arrogant know it all's that they have better eyes than the rest of us and that we just accept what they deem is the proper PQ for those of us favoring LCD and be a plasma lemming - but listen to me Calibrators that if your were to place any of these in my viewing room it would be DESTROYED during daylight hours for gaming, sports, movies especially dark scene content and I could never tolerate the lousy whites of the Panasonic - they never address those whites when it demo's a Caribbean wake or snow resort as dirty gray or yellow when in reality they are brilliant WHITE and require sunglasses or goggles - WHITE in the Contrast world is as important as the BLACK gentlemen! This is a pretty cheap marketing event for a conglomerate like Panasonic who proved their bias by placing that WT60 in the competition as a flagship? Are you kidding?


Panasonic has spent MILLIONS over the past decade trashing LCD and they piled on with it by providing this as Flagship but it proved to be more an effort to further trash LCD as it proved to be about 8 year old PQ technology reminding me of my first LCD 11 yrs ago an RCA which only looked good when it was off and then I upgraded to a Sony LCD when a 23" cost $1700 on sale and it still runs excellent and troublefree as the day I bought it on my kitchen counter. Perhaps the WT60 having an IPS has some advantages but it was hands down horrendous during the shootout and Panny should be embarrassed placing this on display as flagship material and for this Shootout ignoring so many other options that better meet the viewing reality outside the Mancave environs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wess74

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23322623


The LED may or ,may not have won but the XBR-xx900A and the LG 84LM960V are still great sets

The Sony 55X900 has just been priced at £4000 in the UK where I live and like the gentleman above my lounge faces the full glare of the sun for most of the day. Now at the moment I have an 8G Pioneer 428XD which has done me proud for 5 years but there's no getting away from the fact that during the day the picture is dull as dishwater. Granted at night it's sublime but that only makes up about 20% of my viewing so Im looking to get the best LED I can this year with the 4k Sony at the top of my wanted list.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
32,443 Posts
The LED will do a little better in the light situation, but I bet nothing out there in the past or today will make you happy in those conditions except good shades for the windows
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,697 Posts
So Chris what would you recommend for someone in my boat (see post above) Would you still look to find a 60" Elite set or go for one of the F8000 models?


I'm just curious if you think the Elite is still worth hunting down and would trust one. By trusting I mean some of the problems people in the Elite thread have had with newer build dates.


Thanks for your thoughts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23323714


The LED will do a little better in the light situation, but I bet nothing out there in the past or today will make you happy in those conditions except good shades for the windows

I know!, But the boss doesn't want blinds:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
I was looking into that Samsung LCD, but the input lag numbers are dreadful for gaming.


If I were to go 4k with Sony, it would be the 55-inch model that uses the new Sharp panel. I'm curious, could you tell a 1080p image was upscaled? As in, did the image appear razor sharp or had some softness to it. I've been curious about buying the Sony 4k set, but I keep getting conflicted opinions on if 4k is really worth it at that screen size.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,290 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaxick  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23324362


I was looking into that Samsung LCD, but the input lag numbers are dreadful for gaming.


If I were to go 4k with Sony, it would be the 55-inch model that uses the new Sharp panel. I'm curious, could you tell a 1080p image was upscaled? As in, did the image appear razor sharp or had some softness to it. I've been curious about buying the Sony 4k set, but I keep getting conflicted opinions on if 4k is really worth it at that screen size.

I ran my own input lag tests with the F8000 and I posted the results on the flagship models thread. In PC mode the lag is very respectable (17-33ms over several tests) - plus it has the benefit of 4:4:4 chroma processing. You do lose virtually all picture options unfortunately, but PC mode is definitely the way to go with the Samsung.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23325181


I ran my own input lag tests with the F8000 and I posted the results on the flagship models thread. In PC mode the lag is very respectable (17-33ms over several tests) - plus it has the benefit of 4:4:4 chroma processing. You do lose virtually all picture options unfortunately, but PC mode is definitely the way to go with the Samsung.

How was clouding having all those features turned off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,290 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaxick  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23325787


How was clouding having all those features turned off.

Zero clouding. None. Zilch. I know - my old ES series was plagued by it. According to the Samsung guy at the shootout, the internal components that get hot were moved to an outer area behind the set this year, which eliminates clouding because according to them, the clouding was caused by the hot components pressed up near the panels, causing hot spots. I did notice last year that when I first turned on my set, the clouding was minimal, and after it was on for a while, it would look much, much worse with much more clouding. I started to have a suspicion that it was hot spots near the screen. Whatever they did this year, there was zero clouding. There is some flashlighting though - that can't be avoided thanks to edge-lighting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,290 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by digmor crusher  /t/1472884/my-take-on-the-value-electronics-shootout-i-was-there-led-wins#post_23329072


Its a Samsung, there will be clouding, don't fall for the BS.


That is all.

I must be lying then.



I've had two different F8000s now - with a third on the way. The previous sets both had dead pixels. But there was zero clouding. Period. I should know - I had the ES7500 last year which had horrible clouding, so I know very well what clouding looks like. Neither F8000 I've had in my living room had even a spot of clouding. Flashlighting, yes. Clouding, no.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top