I purchased a 710 pioneer elite with a full cash payment, but have not taken posession. A few days ago, after learning what I could about the *new* *possible* *proposed* standard/protocal/b**sh**!, I contacted my vendor and demanded a letter either from them or, preferably, from Pioneer guaranteeing that my purchase would not be diminished (as it applies to HDTV) as a result of future technology. I requested this simply because I purchased this expensive unit to view HDTV! My argument was simply this: If Pioneer or your firm is unwilling to accept the contingency, how can you expect me to, when you are the professionals and I am only a consumer relying on your information and advice. Now, I am getting a full refund and am faced with the inevitable delema: Do I buy a cheap set, to "throw-away" if and when this protocal becomes reality? Or, did I over-react in my anger and walked away from a decently priced RPTV ($5700)? Comments are welcomed and MUCH appreciated..
My vote on DVI/HDCP has been cast !!!
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You may not realize it, but have made the equipment manufacturers take notice.
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Alex
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Alex
No, my friend, they walked away from you - and us. If that was a refusal from the manufacturer, then they have confirmed all of the "paranoid" posts on this website.
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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!
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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!
Our Silent Angels
Please visit The Manny Page!
You did the right thing. There is no way I would have spent 8K in January on HD equipment if I knew what I know now. I guess I was naive back then but I though HDTV was over the basic growing pains. There were many new STB's, lots of HDTV TV's and Projectors, every major station in my area was broadcasting DTV. Buzzzzz wrong answer here comes DLTA and the MPAA La Costra Nostra. There is no way I would let one of my friends or family go out and spend thousands with out at least informing them of the issues. If they still wanted to purchase a HD setup, more power to them, but at least they were informed. Which was better off than the majority of us were when we purchased our equipment. Go out and buy something cheap or better yet used, until you feel comfortable in making a purchase. If more people like you stop buying it will start hitting these folks where it hurts. These manufactures are at least 1 to 2 years out before making compatible equipment and that is a long time to have depressed sales, especially in this economy. A few quarters of depressed sales and they will feel the sting.
Kudos,
Brian
Kudos,
Brian
I applaud your move. And I hope that there are more of you so this does cut into sales. But, there are many people out there on the verge of buying such displays that are not aware of these fraudulent sales. I wish there was someway to inform these future victims.
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I feel bad for all of you that have just bought a new HDTV ready tv. I was ready to purchase a Toshiba 65H80 until I heard about the H81 series. I would have purchased one next week (57H81) but thanks to all of you on this board I will now wait until this thing is settled. meanwhile I will see how much longer my bowed screen 52" RCA will last before it completely bites the dust.
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My DVD List
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My DVD List
No one can advise you on your own investment/discretionary spending. I personally think the Pioneer Elite are way over-priced for what they deliver. You can achieve 95 per cent of that picture quality (IMHO) at half the price.
I personally wouldn't invest top dollar in sets that do not have DVI/firewire inputs.
Having said that, I am looking forward to a huge GLUT of analog input equipment at the B and Ms in about 3-6 mos, as the reality of DVI/HDCP sets in. I'm counting on being able to buy either a 38310 or a 36XBR for my study here for about a grand! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
John in VA
I personally wouldn't invest top dollar in sets that do not have DVI/firewire inputs.
Having said that, I am looking forward to a huge GLUT of analog input equipment at the B and Ms in about 3-6 mos, as the reality of DVI/HDCP sets in. I'm counting on being able to buy either a 38310 or a 36XBR for my study here for about a grand! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
John in VA
Let me suggest a different approach. Buy the set with analog inputs and boycott the sets with DVI/HDCP. This will expand the market for unprotected content, and eliminate the market for protected content. It will also cause huge pain for CE vendors who see expensive new product launches fail.
Cheers,
Bernd
Cheers,
Bernd
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Quote:
Oh please, they've done nothing of the sort.
Honch1 was asking for a guarantee, in writing, based on standards that are still pretty vague and subject to change. I'm sure they don't have a letter already made, so they'd have to spend some serious money and time for a lawyer to draw one up -- it's just much easier for them to refund the money than give a guarantee that they can't back up and open themselves up to lawsuits.
I'd have loved it if they had made the guarantee, but I'm not at all surprised that they bailed, given the infancy of the copy-protection standards.
It's not very encouraging, but we shouldn't take this as confirmation of them saying "Yep, we're going to screw you".
| Originally posted by Man E: No, my friend, they walked away from you - and us. If that was a refusal from the manufacturer, then they have confirmed all of the "paranoid" posts on this website. |
Honch1 was asking for a guarantee, in writing, based on standards that are still pretty vague and subject to change. I'm sure they don't have a letter already made, so they'd have to spend some serious money and time for a lawyer to draw one up -- it's just much easier for them to refund the money than give a guarantee that they can't back up and open themselves up to lawsuits.
I'd have loved it if they had made the guarantee, but I'm not at all surprised that they bailed, given the infancy of the copy-protection standards.
It's not very encouraging, but we shouldn't take this as confirmation of them saying "Yep, we're going to screw you".
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Really... I'm going to save links to all these "sky is falling" threads so I can remind them in a year of how paranoid they were, even as they are enjoying all the new HD content and lower-priced sets with more features. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
John
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Change is coming, it is inevitable, it is not always bad, but is usually good on balance; there is nothing you can do to stop it, and waiting for the perfect technological solution is as futile as waiting for the final installment of Windows or Pentium processors; old equipment eventually becomes obsolete, but follows a well-illustrated pathway of lower utility before it reaches worthlessness (my kids are using my five-year-old formerly state-of-the-art Pentium 200MMX); no one is "out to get you", rather trends and conflicting interests cause everyone to shuttle about to keep up with the best value relationships in technology; and, most important, technology and intellectual property is getting more affordable, easier to access, and more robust, not the opposite of that! Look at the quality of HD and DVD today and its availability and price, compared with videotape and early laser disks fifteen years ago. Bucky Fuller called it "ephemeralization" and it's positively affecting everything!
| Originally posted by Chris Carollo: Quote:
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John
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Change is coming, it is inevitable, it is not always bad, but is usually good on balance; there is nothing you can do to stop it, and waiting for the perfect technological solution is as futile as waiting for the final installment of Windows or Pentium processors; old equipment eventually becomes obsolete, but follows a well-illustrated pathway of lower utility before it reaches worthlessness (my kids are using my five-year-old formerly state-of-the-art Pentium 200MMX); no one is "out to get you", rather trends and conflicting interests cause everyone to shuttle about to keep up with the best value relationships in technology; and, most important, technology and intellectual property is getting more affordable, easier to access, and more robust, not the opposite of that! Look at the quality of HD and DVD today and its availability and price, compared with videotape and early laser disks fifteen years ago. Bucky Fuller called it "ephemeralization" and it's positively affecting everything!
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Yeah--I like that (don't buy DVI)! Isn't that what happend with DIVX? I was one of those who bought a *real* DVD player (and boycotted Circuit City to boot). Having said that, I'm still worried about this recent copy-protection agreement because I'm not so sure HDTV has the inherent desire of the masses (to rent movies) behind it. Even though I've had my Princeton HDTV monitor for over 2 years now, it was $$$ enough that I won't "upgrade" it anytime soon. I hope my HD-100 doesn't become a glorified OTA box (I know DirecTV is in on this agreement also).
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Uh huh... and what is everyone in this forum going to do a year from now, when the first early adopters start raving about the image quality from new all-digital displays, with no D/A-A/D conversions in the signal path?
This is the upside that nobody is talking about. The new equipment will likely show a better picture, and it will be cheaper to manufacture. That makes this just another painful upgrade cycle, like any other. Even if Congress intervenes and manages to kill the copy protection, you’ll still want the new hardware because it’s a better way to get the signal to the display.
Here's what I think is better advice for people who don't know what to do right now, and are looking to buy new display hardware:
1) Buy hardware optimized for 480p resolution, and be happy watching DVD movies during the transition period. You'll still get a decent picture on "down-res'd" HDTV premium content. It won’t be full resolution, but it’s still better than what you get now with most PPV satellite and cable movie channels, which are running at 480i. When the HDTV market stabilizes in a year or two, you can think about upgrading. That's what I just did (by accident)... I bought a Seleco HT200DM (848 x 480 DLP) projector and I'm loving it. No pain about the future, because it only does 480p anyway. Looks terrific on DVD movies. There is a lot of other hardware in this category – Panasonic 42†plasma, CRT-based RPTV’s, etc.
2) The other worthwhile approach is just to keep your investment as small as possible, so you can afford to upgrade sooner when the all-digital equipment arrives. There are some nice deals right now on cheap LCD projectors, and you know there will soon be a lot of "HDTV compatible" RPTV's available at fire-sale prices.
Either approach lets you enjoy DVD movies and whatever HDTV is still available on the analog outputs, while the market shakes out. I don't think it makes sense to invest heavily in high end, high-resolution hardware right now. That's the category that's going to suffer the most depreciation and user dissatisfaction when the new system rolls out.
I know some will see this as heresy, and think we should all be fighting the good fight and telling Hollywood to #$% off. The problem is that HT enthusiasts always go where the best image quality is, and I think that's going to happen with the new all-digital signal path. Even if you don't buy that argument, you know the manufacturers are going to be putting their best efforts into the new all-digital display hardware, and that alone insures that it's going to be desirable. Current HDTV display hardware is good... but it's not good enough, or cheap enough.
| Let me suggest a different approach. Buy the set with analog inputs and boycott the sets with DVI/HDCP. This will expand the market for unprotected content, and eliminate the market for protected content. It will also cause huge pain for CE vendors who see expensive new product launches fail. |
This is the upside that nobody is talking about. The new equipment will likely show a better picture, and it will be cheaper to manufacture. That makes this just another painful upgrade cycle, like any other. Even if Congress intervenes and manages to kill the copy protection, you’ll still want the new hardware because it’s a better way to get the signal to the display.
Here's what I think is better advice for people who don't know what to do right now, and are looking to buy new display hardware:
1) Buy hardware optimized for 480p resolution, and be happy watching DVD movies during the transition period. You'll still get a decent picture on "down-res'd" HDTV premium content. It won’t be full resolution, but it’s still better than what you get now with most PPV satellite and cable movie channels, which are running at 480i. When the HDTV market stabilizes in a year or two, you can think about upgrading. That's what I just did (by accident)... I bought a Seleco HT200DM (848 x 480 DLP) projector and I'm loving it. No pain about the future, because it only does 480p anyway. Looks terrific on DVD movies. There is a lot of other hardware in this category – Panasonic 42†plasma, CRT-based RPTV’s, etc.
2) The other worthwhile approach is just to keep your investment as small as possible, so you can afford to upgrade sooner when the all-digital equipment arrives. There are some nice deals right now on cheap LCD projectors, and you know there will soon be a lot of "HDTV compatible" RPTV's available at fire-sale prices.
Either approach lets you enjoy DVD movies and whatever HDTV is still available on the analog outputs, while the market shakes out. I don't think it makes sense to invest heavily in high end, high-resolution hardware right now. That's the category that's going to suffer the most depreciation and user dissatisfaction when the new system rolls out.
I know some will see this as heresy, and think we should all be fighting the good fight and telling Hollywood to #$% off. The problem is that HT enthusiasts always go where the best image quality is, and I think that's going to happen with the new all-digital signal path. Even if you don't buy that argument, you know the manufacturers are going to be putting their best efforts into the new all-digital display hardware, and that alone insures that it's going to be desirable. Current HDTV display hardware is good... but it's not good enough, or cheap enough.
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461 Posts
I am not to familier with this but I have some questions. IF Directv and Dish are the people pushing for this new copyprotection then why not boycott them? From what I know (which is little) OTA broadcast will not be affected. So when Directv and Dish try pushing this then we could all cancell our subscriptions. How much of an impact could we make then?
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Seems to me, outside of your "true digital" display devices (like the new JVC unit), you will always have a D/A involved. Whether such happens inside the STB or display is virtually unimportant...except for this content management issue.
Just IMHO
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Regards,
Mark Aitken
Evangelical DTV Technologist
| Originally posted by foldedpath: Uh huh... and what is everyone in this forum going to do a year from now, when the first early adopters start raving about the image quality from new all-digital displays, with no D/A-A/D conversions in the signal path? |
Seems to me, outside of your "true digital" display devices (like the new JVC unit), you will always have a D/A involved. Whether such happens inside the STB or display is virtually unimportant...except for this content management issue.
Just IMHO
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Regards,
Mark Aitken
Evangelical DTV Technologist
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Just buy the thing.
I have one and I love it!!!! Especially after ISF'ing it.
90% of what I watch is progressive DVD, 10% HBO/Show on Dish.
I disagree with the poster that said this set ain't worth the money. It is!!!
The more people buy analog hdtv, the more difficult it will become to institute the copy protection.
Alex
I have one and I love it!!!! Especially after ISF'ing it.
90% of what I watch is progressive DVD, 10% HBO/Show on Dish.
I disagree with the poster that said this set ain't worth the money. It is!!!
The more people buy analog hdtv, the more difficult it will become to institute the copy protection.
Alex
I am frustrated too as I was considering moving up to a HD unit this year. Now, I am definitely holding off. If there are a number of people in my situation, the number of HD buyers might plateau or even drop some. The next step is too confusing right now. I don't want to invest in a unit that will become obsolete overnight (and no, this is not comparable to buying a PC). On the other hand, at some point I want to jump in the pool.
Dan
Dan
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Well, there are a lot of true digital display devices out there already... my DLP projector, for example. I think this is where we're headed, because very high quality analog display technology is just too expensive, and the manufacturers are pouring all their R&D into digital displays. They’ve already pushed CRT technology about as far as it can go. DLP and LCD front projectors are gradually creeping up on CRT front projector quality. Plasma displays (or something like them) are going to eat into the CRT/RPTV market once the prices fall low enough. I wouldn't bet on analog displays remaining in the market for more than a few years. There may still be some die-hards (the video equivalent of tube-heads in the audio world) using CRT's, but most of the world will be using digital displays in a few years.
Any D/A conversion introduces artifacts. Pure digital is cleaner, and cheaper to manufacture. Even if you have a display requiring a final D/A conversion like a direct view or rear projection CRT, you benefit from not having multiple D/A-A/D conversions in the signal path from the STB, through a recorder, and into your display.
Here's another example, illustrating the manufacturing economics that are going to drive this upgrade cycle. You can't buy an A/V receiver right now that has the bandwidth to switch a component video full-res HDTV signal unless you spend $1,000 - $2,000. Those circuits are expensive. The all-digital Firewire/DVI switching circuits will be much cheaper to manufacture (even with the encryption chip), and this will eventually allow much cheaper receivers and other devices to do full high-res HDTV video switching.
Any D/A conversion introduces artifacts. Pure digital is cleaner, and cheaper to manufacture. Even if you have a display requiring a final D/A conversion like a direct view or rear projection CRT, you benefit from not having multiple D/A-A/D conversions in the signal path from the STB, through a recorder, and into your display.
Here's another example, illustrating the manufacturing economics that are going to drive this upgrade cycle. You can't buy an A/V receiver right now that has the bandwidth to switch a component video full-res HDTV signal unless you spend $1,000 - $2,000. Those circuits are expensive. The all-digital Firewire/DVI switching circuits will be much cheaper to manufacture (even with the encryption chip), and this will eventually allow much cheaper receivers and other devices to do full high-res HDTV video switching.
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Okay, I don't get it. The MPAA is trying to take away our fair-use rights and obselete our equiptment, and your solution is to watch DVDs and not buy from the equiptment manufacturers? Why not boycott the MPAA's member companies? Wouldn't that make more sense?
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