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Native 720p on a Direct View. Does this exist?

3849 Views 54 Replies 23 Participants Last post by MentholMoose, Dec 13, 2002

Outlaw Z

Discussion Starter · Nov 20, 2002

Hello,

I have done a search but have been unable to find a list of Direct View TVs can display 720p signals natively, or if they even exist.

I know that the Sony 36XBR800 accepts a 720p but then up converts it to 1080i. Is up converting the only method to obtain a 720p signal on a direct view TV?

I plan to use my xbox, which mostly has 720p support because of performance issues. Does the xbox itself up convert to 1080i if your TV does not support 720p?

I have ordered a Toshiba 36HFX72 but I might cancel it before it arrives because it does not accept 720p signals and does not have DVI.

Thanks for any help.

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1 - 20 of 55 Posts

hob

· #2 · Nov 20, 2002

Lets do the math a 480p = 960i

720p would equal a 1,440i which is above digital of 1080i.

If your looking for a 1,080p that would equal out to 2,160i, can perfection at 720p or 1,080p be topped?

A 540p would equal out to be a 1,080i, what numbers above to do you really want to view? Any set of numbers above that would be above digital (1,080i), would equal out to ?

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DonBerg

· #3 · Nov 20, 2002

I believe there are no current direct-view or RPTV HD sets that support native 720p, only upconversion to 1080i. There used to be a special Sampo 34" 16:9 monitor that supported 720p native, it was effectively a multi-sync monitor, but it had no internal line-doubler so it was terrible with regular NTSC 480i inputs. There was a Princeton monitor too, but very expensive.

Outlaw Z

Discussion Starter · #4 · Nov 20, 2002

Thanks for the welcome and replies.

hob,
Quote:

Originally posted by hob
If your looking for a 1,080p that would equal out to 2,160i, can perfection at 720p or 1,080p be topped?

I am looking for 720p in its full glory not up converted, or as I call it down converted, to 1080i.

Quote:

Originally posted by hob

[B}A 540p would equal out to be a 1,080i, what numbers above to do you really want to view? Any set of numbers above that would be above digital (1,080i), would equal out to ?

[/b]

If I follow your logic correctly I am looking for 720p or 1440i.

DonBerg,

If there truly are no affordable true/native 720p Direct View sets I am either forced to rely on the xboxâ€™s up conversion (which I am not sure if xbox does any, I assume it does), or purchase a TV that supports 720p->1080i up conversion.

Does anybody have a list of all Direct View models that support 720->1080i up conversion?

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bryanb

· #5 · Nov 20, 2002

Anyone know if the JVC AV-36P903 supports 720p? The only mention in the manual of it is that the DVI connection will take 720p. I have a feeling it upconverts though.

Bryan

jckessler

· #6 · Nov 20, 2002

Any $90 computer monitor can 720p....

Mad Maximus

· #7 · Nov 20, 2002

Quote:

I have done a search but have been unable to find a list of Direct View TVs can display 720p signals natively, or if they even exist.

There are a few that can display 720p:

-Monivision/Princeton 30"-36" www.monivision.com/monitors.html#

-Sampo SME-34WHD5 34" Wide Screen (discontinued)

-Sampo 32" SME-32DL5 www.sampoamericas.com/prod_SME-32DL5.php

Quote:

I plan to use my xbox, which mostly has 720p support because of performance issues. Does the xbox itself up convert to 1080i if your TV does not support 720p?

Xbox will default to 480p if 720p isn't supported.

Quote:

I have ordered a Toshiba 36HFX72 but I might cancel it before it arrives because it does not accept 720p signals and does not have DVI.

The Sampo and Monivision sets don't have DVI, so you're going to have to choose between 720p and DVI on the newer Sony, JVC sets.

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DonBerg

· #8 · Nov 21, 2002

the new model Toshiba 34HD82 and 34HDX82 sets accept 720p input, convert it to 1080i internally. So does the new Sony XBR800 models.

drfrank

· #9 · Nov 21, 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Maximus
Xbox will default to 480p if 720p isn't supported.

Just to clarify this point, the Xbox technically defaults to 480i. You have to manually enable the higher resolutions through the dashboard. So if you tell your Xbox that your TV supports 720p, and you put in a game that supports 720p, the Xbox will send 720p to your TV, regardless of what the TV actually supports.

Outlaw Z

Discussion Starter · #10 · Nov 21, 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by drfrank
Just to clarify this point, the Xbox technically defaults to 480i. You have to manually enable the higher resolutions through the dashboard. So if you tell your Xbox that your TV supports 720p, and you put in a game that supports 720p, the Xbox will send 720p to your TV, regardless of what the TV actually supports.

Ok. Lets create my scenario and since I do not currently have a HDTV I hope that somebody out there with a similar setup can confirm the xbox behavior.

1 HDTV supporting both 480p and 1080i.

1 Xbox configured in the dashboard for 480p and 1080i.

1 Game that supports 720p.

Result?

1 HDTV displaying 1080i? Up converted by the Xbox?

1 HDTV displaying 480p? Default output by the Xbox after being enabled?

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drfrank

· #11 · Nov 21, 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Outlaw Z

1 HDTV displaying 480p? Default output by the Xbox after being enabled?

This is what you'll get. (Assuming that the game also supports 480p. It's technically possible for a game to only support 720p, or 720p and 480i, or any other combination, but this is incredibly unlikely.) It's not that 480p is the "default", it's just that it's the highest resolution that the Xbox thinks your TV can support which the game can also support. Make sense?

Of course, if your set can convert between 720p and 1080i, then you can tell the Xbox that your TV supports 720p. Then it will send the 720p signal to the TV and the TV will convert the signal to 1080i. If your set doesn't convert from 720p to 1080i, well, you'll either get a black screen, a corrupted image, or a big puff of smoke and a large repair bill.

hob

· #12 · Nov 21, 2002

Although the DTC-100 outputs a 1920 by 1980 any 720p is automatically converted to 1080 on Direct View RCA F-38310. If your going into DLP or D-ILA, that's a different story altogether.

Outlaw Z

Discussion Starter · #13 · Nov 21, 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by drfrank
This is what you'll get. (Assuming that the game also supports 480p. It's technically possible for a game to only support 720p, or 720p and 480i, or any other combination, but this is incredibly unlikely.) It's not that 480p is the "default", it's just that it's the highest resolution that the Xbox thinks your TV can support which the game can also support. Make sense?

Where you able to verify this on your own setup?

I ask because I found the following information at the following site:
Hardware Behind the Consoles - Part I: Microsoft's Xbox - The Resolution Game

Quote:

In 720p mode there are 135,168 more pixels to be rendered than at 1024 x 768 which is very easily done at above 60 fps by every card since the GeForce2 GTS. The problem you run into next is that most HDTVs don't support 720p but instead support 1080i. This isn't as big of a problem since the conexant chip can scale the output to 1080i and most TVs even scale unsupported inputs to resolutions they do support. This then becomes a question of what is a better scaler, the conexant chip or your HDTV. In the future we hope to see more use of 720p in games because currently even 480p without AA enabled does result in quite a few jagged edges.

This seems to indicate the Xbox hardware is capable of scaling but maybe current games and future games do not implement the scaling.

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drfrank

· #14 · Nov 21, 2002

Quote:

Originally posted by Outlaw Z
Where you able to verify this on your own setup?

Yes.

Quote:

This seems to indicate the Xbox hardware is capable of scaling but maybe current games and future games do not implement the scaling.

Technically, yes, the Xbox hardware is capable of scaling any image from just about any resolution to just about any resolution. (It can technically even output at resolutions and frequencies other than the ATSC approved ones.) But that's irrelevant to you and me. The game controls at what resolution each frame is rendered.

So, to be clear, the Xbox will only produce a 480i or 480p signal when Halo is in the drive, because those are the only resolutions that Halo supports. There's no way to get a 720p or 1080i signal out of the Xbox when Halo is in it. (Well, short of hacking the hardware.)

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jcardani

· #15 · Nov 21, 2002

Here's another monitor that can do 720p naitively:

JVC DT-V2000SU 20" 4:3 Monitor

Can do analog 4:3 or 16:9 via composite, Y/C, YUV component, or RGB.

For DTV, it supports 480p (4:3 or 16:9), 720p (16:9), and 1080i (16:9) all naitively via YPbPr component or RGB.

Also has a third input for S-VGA computer signal.

Lines of resolution 600-NTSC/900-1080i

I recently purchased this monitor and love it although it's small. Earlier this week I got it ISF calibrated and it really shines.

Out of the box the contrast is very very low since it's designed for a control room environment. I had to up the contrast a bit (via service mode) to be viewable in normal home conditions.

I bought this monitor B-stock for $2000 with full 1 year warranty from JVC. It's about $4300 new but it's been discontinued. Ikegami has the same monitor (not sure of the model name) for $3995.

Joe

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dorkus

· #16 · Nov 21, 2002

interesting discussion of xbox resolutions, was interested in that info myself.

how does 720p look when scaled to 1080i by a 34XBR800 or what not? i would think there is a significant loss of pixel-to-pixel detail, tho not necessarily overall picture detail when sitting at a normal distance. i actually hate scaling in DTV's, i'd almost prefer to see the original analog interlaced signal sometimes. when i play games on my PS2 (640x480) and they get converted to a non-integer multiple like 1080i the loss of sharpness really bothers me with some games, makes everything look soft and overly anti-aliased. it seems somewhat akin to viewing a LCD display at non-native res. i'm wondering how 720p fares in this regard.

kharvel

· #17 · Nov 21, 2002

jcardani,

Why did you spend $2000 for a JVC 20" direct-view monitor? You could spend $500 for a nice Sony Trinitron flat-screen 21" monitor and it would give you better capabilities than the JVC.

There is also the Monivision DM7752 36" monitor that can output [email protected] hz progressive and can also support 720p natively.

DonBerg

· #18 · Nov 22, 2002

That JVC model sounds like a specialized broadcast monitor, not a regular consumer HDTV at 20" size. Probably more like a computer multi-sync monitor that has some electronics added to support NTSC and component video inputs. The size matches the top end of computer CRT monitors.

Outlaw Z

Discussion Starter · #19 · Nov 22, 2002

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I seems like I need one of three solutions for my HDTV needs.

1.) An HDTV monitor that accepts 720p signals and up converts them to 1080i. This option seems possible today but is very limited in the direct view options. I know that some Sony monitors do this but not all.

2.) An HDTV monitor that accepts 720p signals and displays them in native 720p resolution. The options for these seem very limited also because the monitors that have been stated here are not available at my local retailers.

3.) Wait for HDTV monitors, from major manufactures, that accept and display 720p signals in their true resolutions to become widely available. Does anybody know when manufactures are expected to do this?

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DonBerg

· #20 · Nov 22, 2002

Your #1 is becoming more popular on the latest models of HDTVs from Sony, Tohsiba, and others - the most easy and current approach.

Your #2 is dead for current models.

Your #3 is I would say not feasible, nobody has native 720p support planned to my knowledge due to extra costs and that would be bad against competitors. The 720p->1080i upconvert is very good from what I've seen, no problem with that approach.

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

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