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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i spent a few hours this evening testing around with my PRO1000HD; including a lengthy vox session with ericbee and jlm (thanks guys).


i'm relatively new to the world of plasmas (this is my first), but one thing that i'd stress to other folks who haven't had the "pleasure" of finding this out, is that native rate matters.


my understanding is that in the past, PDPs have had two very distinct modes: "pc mode" and "video mode". certain combinations of settings would cause a PDP to "lock into PC mode" at which point the image apparently looked crappy and all sorts of unpleasant stuff happened (hordes of locusts, your wife leaves you, etc.). so it was to be avoided.


it is no longer clear (according to doody - for whatever that's worth) that these distinctions are so important. the pioneers do "lock into pc mode", but the differences are not that radical and most importantly these things want to be in native rate mode.


1280x768 looks way nicer than 1280x720 (which doesn't lock into pc mode, fyi), for example. for those pc geeks in the crowd, this is intuitive. try to run your laptop's LCD screen in anything but it's native rate. go ahead. i dare you. it doesn't really work. if you can get the settings to change, it looks HORRIBLE. not bad, horrible. there are X by Y pixels and you want to feed the unit X by Y pixels or else the unit has to guess what is intended. sometimes it guesses well. sometimes it doesn't. in theory, your PDP can do a way better job of guessing than your laptop can, but it's still guessing.


of course, as jlm astutely pointed out, i wasn't running digital into the PDP. it's still an analog signal coming off the GeForce3 card, so it's not entirely an accurate soap box to mount, but it is by all means a directionally correct one. i can only imagine what 1280x768 will look like via DVI. yowza.


525i couldn't hold a candle (Meridian 596 DVD player). i'm sure it looks GREAT on an NTSC device that is scan-line based, but that's not a PDP.


ericbee and jlm are going to do a pile of testing on scalers with the PRO1000HD, hopefully next week. it'll be very interesting to see how those tests pan out.


all this said, i'm not saying that Gladiator at 525i via component looked like doggy doo doo - it didn't. but comparatively it was a big difference.


so i'd urge all critical viewers investing big money in expensive PDPs to at least try out a scaler (HTPC or otherwise) that can do native tate on these things. but you might want to have your wife hide your wallet first ;-)


enjoy!


doody.
 

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Well written and I agree with your points. According to your viewing, the latest generation Pio's look much, much better when locked into PC mode than older generations. This was also confirmed by my Pio source. I would have to agree that since the differences in Gamma and Contrast between PC and Video are far less drastic in the current gen's than in previous models, the tables have turned and native rate would be ideal in these units. I have made arrangements to test a Digital Leeza, with SDI in, an SDI modified DVD player and a DVI connection to the plasma. I will test in 1280x768, on that you can be sure. I will also test on non PC rates to see for myself the differences in modes. All happening next week. If I know "of" you and you are in NYC Monday or Tuesday, you are invited to my hovel for beers, supplied by ******* JLM, and some down home scaler geek shootout fun.
 

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Are you talking about Pioneer plasma's only, or are you saying that driving any plasma at native rate will get a better picture ?


There's been previous discussion on this for the Panasonic 42", which has a native rate of 852 x 480. Have people found that driving it at that resolution produces a clearer picture ?


The set up I have here using a Faroudja 3000 doesn't allow me to select a custom rate. The best picture I've been able to obtain as tested using Avia is with Frame doubled - which proved to be better (more detail and less artifacts) than say 800x600 or 720p.


Any thoughts ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
anthonyc - i can only specifically speak to the Pioneer PRO1000HD. however, i would assume that since all of these units are heading towards their Nth generation that they are getting similarly better and better.


the core of my thesis is that "pixellated displays work best when driven as pixellated displays". if you've got X by Y pixels, feed it X by Y pixel sources and you're likely to get the best image (of course that's easier said than done!).


however, in the past, my understanding is that when you drove many plasmas at their native rate, they locked into some crappy mode that made the image stink - so this was not really an option - you had to come up with a compromise (720p, etc.). those days may (may) be over.


i can believe that doubling might produce a better picture than specific settings - the math is easier.


doody.
 

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it would seem that 768 is the more critical number out of the 1280x768 res since the original image needs to be broken up into that many discrete scan lines of info when converted to rgb (an pseudo digital form, even for crt technology), the big advantage of feeding the plas 768 is that otherwise, the plas has to do the conversion, adding a step.


the issue is tricky; it was eric's and my hypothesis with the 505 tests that the native res would without question be superior; but then we ran into the pc vs video mode problem. I think someone posted that with another scaler he was able to get the 505 to work in video mode with a 768 signal (probably 1024 or 1366), but since the hor res didn't match, there was either cropping or further plas scaling;


the good news of course is that the pq is just as good now in pc or video mode;

we need to try the dvi native res!
 

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Yes,


1:1 convergence is important for all plasmas.


On the Rock, there's a special horizontal and vertical line pattern that lets you verify that each pixel that Rock sees, the plasma will see as a pixel (and not half a pixel).


Without this convergence, the picture looks horrible (as Doody rightfully explained). Basically, you upscale to the one resolution, and the poor scaler within the plasma has to scale it down to native rate.


The less processing steps you have, the better the picture.


Anyway, sadly, some plasmas (e.g., Fujitsu) have special H and V frequencies, where only those frequencies are allowed access to the native rate.


Sadly, I only found this out too late, having already returned the Rock... So, I never even got to see the Rock's performance natively :(
 

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jlm/ericbee,


I glad to see that the PC mode picture quality has improved with the 1000. jlm and I tried to tweak the GVC1280 and the 505. The best I could do with the 505 thru the Vig was 1365x768 and keeping it in video mode. This of course is not the native rate for the 505 (1280x768). I'm sure you guys have gone thru extensive tests looking at different resolutions into the 1000. I should be getting my SDI card for the Proceed MDT soon. I'm sure jlm would be interested in how this looks directly into the 1000.


mfb
 

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damn: mfb...where are you getting that card?

how much dough?
 

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jlm,


I'll email you with details on the SDI card. Probably should have said running the SDI MDT thru a Leeza (or SDI capable scaler) to the 1000.


Ericbee,


What are the chances of getting Faroudja to provide a 1280x768 setting for the NRS to mate with the 1000. Also what are the chances they ever add an SDI input? Probably wishful thinking. Looking forward to what you have to report back on the Leeza.


mfb
 

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Probability of Faroudja adding 1280x768...25%

Probability of them adding SDI......15%

Probability of either happening in 2001.....0%

Probability of it happening in first Q 02'....10%



I actually feel that they will never add SDI or 1280x768 but, never is a long time and even the moronically challenged at Faroudja may wake up from their coma some day.


I sold my NR months ago knowing that 768 was not in the immediate future through inside sources. It is not even a rate they are currently considering or working on, neither was 1365x768. Being that both of those rates are the ONLY rates I would need to use with any current plasma, I got rid of the NR. I was also told that the PC mode issue that plagued the 505 would be corrected or much improved on the 1000 and that seems to be the case. I have not changed my position, I still think Faroudja has the best colors and deinterlacing of any scaling company, unfortunately that does not help me if they don't have my scale rate.
 

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I am testing a Faroudja NRS right now, amnd according to the literature and what I have been told, it was set up for 1280x768. It sure looked like it on a Sharp LC-28HM2, which is a 28" 1280x768 LCD monitor.


Pete
 

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Pete, I would highly doubt that you have the only 1280x768 rate ever made and never advertised. I even called my connection at Faroudja who said that this was the first he has ever heard of it and while it is very unlikely, it is not impossible. Well, I know Faroudja and I say IT IS impossible. The best way to check Pete, is to unplug the unit and power down. Upon startup, look at the OSD on the front panel of the NR. It will tell you the rate and software version once it Powers up. My guess is that it is a "16x9 HD Display" unit which is 720p. If it says 1365x768 it is really only 1024x768 becuase such a rate was misquoted in the literature and software. Please let us know.
 

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Quote:
. The best way to check Pete, is to unplug the unit and power down. Upon startup, look at the OSD on the front panel of the NR. It will tell you the rate and software version once it Powers up. My guess is that it is a "16x9 HD Display" unit which is 720p. If it says 1365x768 it is really only 1024x768 becuase such a rate was misquoted in the literature and software. Please let us know. [/b]

Boy am I disappointed -- I thought I had read the fine print when I purchased my NRS this week for Pioneer 503CMX.


Mine says exactly what you suggesed "16x9" HD. I thought this think was fully optimized for my 503CMX!! and would be at the Native Scan rate of the Plasma.


I agree with Doody - Native Rate + Scan Rate + DVI-D connection is 100% optimal.


I thought I had 2 out of 3 right. Now I find I only have 1 of 3


Michael
 
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