AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 11 of 11 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,


I've been playing with my new NEC 42XR3G plasma for a little while, experimenting with various rates and frequencies (using an iScan HD+).


I have three options:

1. 1024x768 @ 60Hz - I was able to track down timing that would let me do this at native rate and without judder for NTSC sources.


2. 1024x768 @ 75Hz - this does native rate, but has lots of judder.


3. 1280x720 @ 50Hz - no judder, but not native rate.


So, I have a solution for NTSC (option 1). The problem is PAL, I can either forgo native rate or forgo the frame rate.


Does anyone have a better idea, or a good compromise (better than option 1 that I'm using right now)?


I really need some timing that would give me both native rate and no judder either on 50Hz or 75Hz...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
Ofer LaOr

I live in Australia, and have the 50XR4.

My findings are the same as you have found, these NEC don't like 50, 75Hz formats.

One thing you could try is to go into the service menue:-

OFF Timer

Exit

Mute

OFF Timer

and change the vertical ref from "60Hz" to "Auto" in 2 places.

This reduces the judder but solarization rears its ugly head.

As a matter of fact I was going to e-mail you of this very problem, its driving me nuts.

Spent a lot of money and am not happy with PAL.

I also run my JVC 30000 into it and its absolutely perfect, best picture I have seen.

Regards

Richard
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am very familiar with teh service menus (I think I was the one who posted them on this forum a few years ago + I am the author of the undocumented NEC plasma PDF)...


I changed the value to Auto in both places the same day I got the unit...


Actually, 50Hz works very well (no judder) in these resolutions: 720p50 and 1080i50 and 576i50 (I used an iScan HD+ to test the HD judder).


I did not see any significant change in solarization.


50Hz does not sync well for any other format I tried (I'm going to start doing more testing soon). I can get NR on 75Hz (using VESA timing), but there's severe judder there.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
Ofer LaOr

Are you sure that you were actually syncing 720p 50Hz, it does'nt work for me and the specs say it does'nt support 720p @ 50Hz. only 60Hz.

When I select HDTV 720p @ 50Hz from the STB the top of the picture tears and bends over.

Our HDTV in Australia is DVB standard and works quite well.

For me 1080i on the NEC is the best, but if you have 60Hz selected in the service menu you get judder but no solarization, if you select Auto then the judder is minimized but solarization is unacceptable for me.

I had an NEC Tech out to my House, and he confirmed the two possibilities , either judder or solarization.

Regards

Richard
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hmm...


Good point Richard - my display specs don't specify it either. I distinctly remember having tested it and receiving an image. When I do more testing, I'll try it again just to be sure. Note that I am using a scaler to do the testing, so the timing is likely quite different from your STB!


I wonder if a scaler would help you, in this situation, to avoid judder.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
Hey, thinking out of the box here, have either of you guys looked into a "Frequency Converter"?


Most of them are for commercial/military use and it should do the trick for all your audio, video and telecom needs.


I guesstimate that a 2kVA Single Phase(in/out) Solid State 50hz/60hz/400hz with 90V to 340V input/output one comes in at around $2,000 to $3,000.


A goggle search shows more than 400 links.


Good luck!


Gman


ps. many models will also give you the cleanest juice from added features such as Pure Sinewave Output, Precision Output Voltage Regulation, Brownout/Surge and Transient Protection, Elimination of Generator Frequency & Voltage Drift , etc., etc. ;)
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
GmanAVS,


You're not just thinking out of the box, you're in another box somewhere in unknown space...


You're talking about the frequency of the power input, but the source signals we're receiving are 50Hz or 60HZ regardless of what the power frequency is. These are the frequencies that PAL and NTSC are using and they will not change using a power frequency converter.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
GmanAVS,


You're not just thinking out of the box, you're in another box somewhere in unknown space...


You're talking about the frequency of the power input, but the source signals we're receiving are 50Hz or 60HZ regardless of what the power frequency is. These are the frequencies that PAL and NTSC are using and they will not change using a power frequency converter.
Thank you for enlightening me, space can be a lonely place!


I just spent the past 2 hour reading up on synch rates, PAL/NTSC/FILM frame rates, theoretical and practical conversion from one to another and the ideal display refresh rates associated with those standards. I found some interesting forums/threads addressing your issue (or may I say vigorously debating it! hehehe, different forums same attitudes).


Now I understand! (well I guess just a little more than before...)


Seems to me you have only one option, to buy seperate HT systems and displays to match your source signal!


It is my understanding now, that you could also go the "signal conversion" route, but even if you have the broadcast editing hardware and software to achieve your goal and have the outgoing video resolution and frame rate for each type of broadcast to appropriately match you displays native one, without knowing how the master source material was recorded (what type of equipment, standard and rate) you will always be at the mercy of leaving it to the hardware and software to generalize and compensate when a frame rate conversion occurs.


I guess the bottom line is what is the lesser evil and what can you live with? Judder effect, blinking effect, loss of definition or added artifacts.... all best summarized by this laser and plasma display engineer "groyal" in the www.videohelp.com/forums

Quote:
1) Field reordering (a' la SelectEvery(bunch,pattern)). Intuitively the simplest approach, but practically impossible because each field represents a different instance in time. It's extremely difficult to insert copies of fields at regular intervals to make up the rate differential while keeping the top/bottom relationship (and therefore the presentation order) of the surrounding fields intact. The visual effect is a kind of temporal precession, or cyclical vibration, that looks like Benny Hill's version of the Ministry of Silly Walks.


(2) Frame synthesis (a' la ChangeFPS()). This is similar to what hardware converters do, except the new frames are averages rather than motion-compensated interpolations. The visual effect is a blur (more like a smear) in the leading edge of moving objects with a wake following the trailing edge, with distortion proportional to velocity. A sports clip is probably the worst-case scenario for this method, but I don't see why it wouldn't work for a genre that is less kinetic.


(3) Video as Film (a' la pulldown). In essence, this shifts the burden of rate conversion to the DVD player which has on-board means to perform an NTSC telecine (film to video) operation. The visual effect is that treating PAL like film makes it look like film. Field-based video blurs moving objects along the leading edge by presenting it in different positions during the frame interval, and along the trailing edge by the object's movement during the field interval. When you drop one of the fields the leading-edge blur is eliminated but the trailing-edge blur is preserved, lending an unexpected but not objectionable "cine" look to the clip as a whole.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
oferlaor, well after doing more (and final) homework on the subject I stand correct (sort of) again.


It seems the ‘best of breed’ folks at Tenerax Inc. linky have a range of professional products that can do what you want (though no price is disclosed and must be very high since their computers perform at Terraflop speeds...)


Their top of the line Xantus Series (computer and software) will up/down/side/cross convert anything in the known SD or HD broadcast video domain, and it is done in real time within each frame, pixel by pixel !!!!!
Spec sheet linky


I learn something new every day:D :D :D


.... now were are those 1080p plasmas to match!
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
8,104 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Gman,


Thanks. As the moderator for the video processing forums (and owner of 6 scalers as of this moment), I'm quite aware of the Teranex units. At a minimum price of $30,000 per unit (for the least expensive unit), I somehow doubt if this can be a viable solution for $4000 plasmas...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,761 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Gman,


Thanks. As the moderator for the video processing forums (and owner of 6 scalers as of this moment), I'm quite aware of the Teranex units. At a minimum price of $30,000 per unit (for the least expensive unit), I somehow doubt if this can be a viable solution for $4000 plasmas...
:eek: :eek: :eek:

I see said the blind man.....

Seems to be an intractable problem for you then.

Hope you can find a solution!

Cheers,

Gman
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top