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NEC XG and Blu-ray

2945 Views 32 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Craigo87, Feb 9, 2009

Crescent

Discussion Starter · Dec 27, 2008

I've done a few searches on the topic but have a little confusion. If some of you could help verify that my understanding is correct and/or make corrections, I'd appreciate it.

My current setup is HTPC VGA out to NEC ISS VGA in.

Motorola Cable tuner HD 6212 component out to NEC ISS component in (card made by Petr Jirovec a few years ago)

NEC ISS RGBHV out to NEC XG 110 LC RGBHV in.

So I've researched building a new HTPC or buying a STB. Decided on the STB for stability. After all, this hobby is about watching movies not spending endless hours debugging. However, there are many in the HTPC camp that feel spending hours of debugging after you've spent a lot of money is fine. I don't agree. But I digress....

So now I think I need a Moome card for the NEC switcher and just setup another 720P input at 72hz (I'm running [email protected] for the other inputs).

1. Where do I get said card? I was out at Curt's site and didn't see Moome HDMI for the NEC switcher.

2. Some are using a scaler known as "vp50", but I assume that's for people trying to do 1080p and eliminate the black bars. I shouldn't need that for 720p, right?

3. I've kind of assumed that I can output 720P 24 fps out of the STB, but am uncertain. Is this true?

4. As far as cost, I've assumed that all I would need is a player, the Moome card and one HDMI cable into the switcher. Yes?

5. I know I'm forgoing much resolution by settling for 720P. However, I don't think my CRT setup skills will allow me to get 1080p out of the XG. But I've made the assumption that native 720P is going to be much sharper than upscaled 480p from the HTPC. Agree?

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

MikeEby

· #2 · Dec 28, 2008

I think Moome is sold out of cards right now. IMHO in the current CRT market $430 is pretty big chunk of change to drop on a Moome card. Plus with a standalone STB Bluray you can only do [email protected] or [email protected], both will have some 2:3 pulldown jutter. You should be able to spec out an HTPC for around $400 including Vista or XP and a BD drive, but not including a case that will play Bluray very nicely. It will also allow you to run [email protected] or 96Hz or even 1080p with custom timings and have smooth motion and still run analog to your NEC switcher without all the HDCP BS.

The VP50 is a decent solution but comes at a pretty high cost however it’s not used to eliminate the back bars unless you want to destroy the director’s intent. A VP50 is used to create custom timings like [email protected] or 96Hz like the HTPC, but you use the STB or PS3 instead of an HTPC. You can also run 1920X800p for scope movies in a CIH type setup. The VP50 solution will still need either a Moome or HD-Fury to handle HDCP.

There is also a question on how you want to handle HD Audio? An HTPC will downmix 6 or 8 channel HD Audio and send it out the analog connections on your sound card. Very few current STB's now have analog out, so this could require an investment in a new AVR to handle HD audio via HDMI.

Mike

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Mark_A_W

· #3 · Dec 28, 2008

However, there are many in the HTPC camp that feel spending hours of debugging is the whole point.

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MikeEby

· #4 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W /forum/post/15393248

However, there are many in the HTPC camp that feel spending hours of debugging is the whole point.

Very true Mark! They seem to require much less debugging then in the past. The last one I built was a piece of cake using the AMD 780G chipset with onboard video....I was not big on AMD until I worked with this board...It just worked. I don't think I had more then 2 hours in the build.

Mike

draganm

· #5 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15392487

1. Where do I get said card? I was out at Curt's site and didn't see Moome HDMI for the NEC switcher.

2. Some are using a scaler known as "vp50", but I assume that's for people trying to do 1080p and eliminate the black bars. I shouldn't need that for 720p, right?

3. I've kind of assumed that I can output 720P 24 fps out of the STB, but am uncertain. Is this true?

4. As far as cost, I've assumed that all I would need is a player, the Moome card and one HDMI cable into the switcher. Yes?

5. I know I'm forgoing much resolution by settling for 720P. However, I don't think my CRT setup skills will allow me to get 1080p out of the XG. But I've made the assumption that native 720P is going to be much sharper than upscaled 480p from the HTPC. Agree?

1) looks like the next batch of cards is coming in January, but sometimes they can be 30 t0 60 days late.

3,4) Personally I love the card and STB with a single HDMI cable to PJ. I retired my HTPC for good. With the Blue Ray players you can also choose 1080i or 720P at 60hz. 1080P24fps is only for digitals which still have to increase it to their native Panel speed. No electronic display will run 24FPS, that's a film speed and way too slow for electronic projection refresh rates.

5) 1080P comes down to your ability to dial in the yokes and EM focus dead-nuts. If you run a scaler (or HTPC) 1080i 96 Hz is a favorite of CRt'rs. Straight from STB to PJ 720P60HZ isn't bad by any means. Of course Any of these resolutions from native HD will be noticeably sharper than up-scaled 480P (DVD)

Crescent

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 28, 2008

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!

Thanks, Mike. I wasn't sure the Moome was that costly. I saw it at Curt's site but I thought it might be cheaper elsewhere. The cost of that card would be a complete throw-away, once I go digital. As for judder, I live with it now. As to the audio, I was going to wait. I see that a used Marantz 7002 might be a good option, but didn't want to put out the cash right now. I'm not certain if it does component out, but it could take care of the switching and hdcp issues by sending component out to the ISS. I have a Rotel now I've had since 2000 and I love the Rotel sound. So I have to see what they have now. I eventually plan to replace everything, but one step at a time. So for now, I was just going to use the coaxial digital which people say should sound a little better with the new formats and the higher native data. Eventually, what I would want would be to send the lpcm streams to the new AVR for decoding.

Thanks, Mark_a_w. Been there done that. When figuring the cost, you need to add what you think 100 hours of your time is worth for the HTPC. I have to admit though, since the initial headache, my current HTPC has been rock solid for three years now (except for one power supply). But the truth is we've accepted that crap from software developers. When you buy a product, it should work, period. Otherwise, the dollars should be used to "vote" for another product.

Thanks draganm. I'm a CRT hobbyist not a pro. I didn't realize I couldn't take in 24 fps having never tried it. I do have a setting for 72hz. I don't open the box either. I don't mess with that. I'll do geometry, convergence and obviously the installation, but I'm hesitant to go inside. I've got 720P looking pretty good. I'm sure you folks could do a lot better. But for me, that's good enough for now. I've read in other posts that 1080p isn't really possible even on a 9"er unless you only send the active content in a constant height setup.

6, Do any STB players output 72?

7. Does running 1080i at 96 cleanup the interlaced artifacts? That's essentially quadrupling the signal, is it not? You would still need beam spot for 1080 though, right?

8. I think 720p at 72 would work best for me, but then, how do you show video? Don't tell me reclock...Or in the case of hardware, do you have to manually switch the scaler setting or does it sense it automatically?

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draganm

· #7 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!

Thanks, Mike. I wasn't sure the Moome was that costly. I saw it at Curt's site but I thought it might be cheaper elsewhere. The cost of that card would be a complete throw-away, once I go digital.

The cost of going to truly good digital like the RS2 or 20 is around $5 or $6K. Compared to that the card is cheap. You can also look for the previous generation card, although not many NEC cards were made in relation to Sony and Marquee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

As for judder, I live with it now. As to the audio, I was going to wait. I see that a used Marantz 7002 might be a good option, but didn't want to put out the cash right now. I'm not certain if it does component out, but it could take care of the switching and hdcp issues by sending component out to the ISS.

I wouldn't send analog video through any receiver, it will almost certainly add noise to the signal and degrade the quality. That why HDMI audio/video is superior, being in the digital domain makes it immune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

I have a Rotel now I've had since 2000 and I love the Rotel sound. So I have to see what they have now. I eventually plan to replace everything, but one step at a time. So for now, I was just going to use the coaxial digital which people say should sound a little better with the new formats and the higher native data.

AFAIK, none of the BD players have co-axial out, it's either Optical or HDMI. The upper end $500. models have 5 or 7 channel Analog audio out but you're reciever needs to have that input as well. That is the one other way to get the full Dolby tru HD outside of HDMI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

I've read in other posts that 1080p isn't really possible even on a 9"er unless you only send the active content in a constant height setup.

The people who are doing custom reslutions like 1920 x 800 are doing it because it's ideal for a 2.35 CIH. Any modern 9 inch should easilly resolve 1080 vertial lines on a 16:9 screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

6, Do any STB players output 72?

not that I know of, Maybe some of the really expensive $1500. models like Marantz? Even if they do, it would cost more than a STB + scaler and be less usefull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

7. Does running 1080i at 96 cleanup the interlaced artifacts? That's essentially quadrupling the signal, is it not? You would still need beam spot for 1080 though, right?

Not sure about artifacts but No you wouldn't the spot size for 1080P because the gun is only actually painting 540 lines in any single frame, it's just painting the frames twice as fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15395676

8. I think 720p at 72 would work best for me, but then, how do you show video? Don't tell me reclock...Or in the case of hardware, do you have to manually switch the scaler setting or does it sense it automatically?

I think most people who use a scaler have it take multiple sources and output everything at one resolution. That's the beauty of it.

OR, you can assign a different output resolution to each source. The problem with this approach is you also need seperate recall blocks in the CRT and switch between them for every resolution.

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Crescent

Discussion Starter · #8 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
The cost of going to truly good digital like the RS2 or 20 is around $5 or $6K. Compared to that the card is cheap. You can also look for the previous generation card, although not many NEC cards were made in relation to Sony and Marquee.

I was thinking a Panasonic AE3000, but this might be some time to come since my XG isn't worth anything on the market. But 1080p is twice the resolution as 720P, and I'd like to get it sometime soon. By the time I'm ready, perhaps OLED will be viable.

Quote:
I wouldn't send analog video through any receiver, it will almost certainly add noise to the signal and degrade the quality. That why HDMI audio/video is superior, being in the digital domain makes it immune.

What I envisioned here was HDMI out to a potentially new AVR and component out of that to the ISS.

Quote:
AFAIK, none of the BD players have co-axial out, it's either Optical or HDMI. The upper end $500. models have 5 or 7 channel Analog audio out but you're reciever needs to have that input as well. That is the one other way to get the full Dolby tru HD outside of HDMI

What I was thinking here is to simply use the old formats until I replace the pre/pro. I believe the Sony S550 and Panny BD55 both do coaxial.

Quote:
Any modern 9 inch should easilly resolve 1080 vertial lines on a 16:9 screen.

I never really understood this being that a 16:9 raster is only half using the tube face. I've been part of other threads that stated it can look really good, but can't be fully resolved.

Quote:
I think most people who use a scaler have it take multiple sources and output everything at one resolution. That's the beauty of it.

Duh. That was dumb of me. Are there audio sync issues?

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draganm

· #9 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15397685

I was thinking a Panasonic AE3000, but this might be some time to come since my XG isn't worth anything on the market. But 1080p is twice the resolution as 720P, and I'd like to get it sometime soon. By the time I'm ready, perhaps OLED will be viable.

I believe 1080i96 is the same bandwidth and effectively same resolution as 1080P60Hz. CRT's can 1080i96 no problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15397685

What I envisioned here was HDMI out to a potentially new AVR and component out of that to the ISS.

I don't think any receiver will take HDMI in and output it as component due to HDCP issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15397685

I never really understood this being that a 16:9 raster is only half using the tube face. I've been part of other threads that stated it can look really good, but can't be fully resolved.

On a 9" tube with modern video chain, like a late model Marquee, even when squeezing the raster to 16:9 you can still fit 1080 lines. the problem comes when you do CIH and squeeze the raster down even further to 2.35 , then you have to reduce the number of vertical lines.

[/quote] Are there audio sync issues?[/quote]only lip synch issues I've see are from satellite broadcast

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nashou66

· #10 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm /forum/post/15397939

I believe 1080i96 is the same bandwidth and effectively same resolution as 1080P60Hz. CRT's can 1080i96 no problem.

I don't think any receiver will take HDMI in and output it as component due to HDCP issues?

On a 9" tube with modern video chain, like a late model Marquee, even when squeezing the raster to 16:9 you can still fit 1080 lines. the problem comes when you do CIH and squeeze the raster down even further to 2.35 , then you have to reduce the number of vertical lines.

Are there audio sync issues?only lip synch issues I've see are from satellite broadcast

not really cause its only 817 lines of info for the scope movies, and that is no issue either and at 72 hz

Athanasios

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draganm

· #11 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm /forum/post/15397939

the problem comes when you do CIH and squeeze the raster down even further to 2.35 , then you have to reduce the number of vertical lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 /forum/post/15397968

not really cause its only 817 lines of info for the scope movies, and that is no issue either and at 72 hz

Athanasios

Ok let me rephrase that, on 2.35CIH it's beneficial to reduce vertical resolution because it free's up bandwidth with no loss of active image scanning info.

Kay?

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Mark_A_W

· #12 · Dec 28, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm /forum/post/15397939

I believe 1080i96 is the same bandwidth and effectively same resolution as 1080P60Hz. CRT's can 1080i96 no problem.

Same as 1080P 48hz, but no flicker.

Crescent

Discussion Starter · #13 · Dec 30, 2008

Quote:
What I envisioned here was HDMI out to a potentially new AVR and component out of that to the ISS.

Quote:
I don't think any receiver will take HDMI in and output it as component due to HDCP issues?

That's the killer stroke right there.

9) Is this true for all AVR/PrePros? For some reason I thought wherever the digital chain ended is where it ended and so the HDCP. Guess this is the killer assumption.

10) How bad is the component out of the STB? I know Curt has an article about it, but I can forego upconversion of standard DVD. Will it do [email protected] for Blu? My understanding is most titles are not flagged for downconversion via component.

MikeEby

· #14 · Dec 31, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent /forum/post/15417621

That's the killer stroke right there.

9) Is this true for all AVR/PrePros? For some reason I thought wherever the digital chain ended is where it ended and so the HDCP. Guess this is the killer assumption.

10) How bad is the component out of the STB? I know Curt has an article about it, but I can forego upconversion of standard DVD. Will it do [email protected] for Blu? My understanding is most titles are not flagged for downconversion via component.

Yes I believe the downconvert flag is not used yet. I use the component output for my Dishnetwork SAT Receiver. It's ok not great, but it's the programming isn't that great either. Keep in mind SD-DVD's will only output 480p from a STB. You might look for a used HD-Fury, I think I've seen them for around $50, since your cables are short might get by without the power supply.

Mike

Bob_M

· #15 · Jan 1, 2009

Mike, I'm updating my theater so I can add Dish HD, I'm replacing an old Crystal Imsage VS2.0 with a Dvdo VP30 so I can go from the Dish component output to RGBHV on my xg135. That should work ok, right?

MikeEby

· #16 · Jan 1, 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_M /forum/post/15432823

Mike, I'm updating my theater so I can add Dish HD, I'm replacing an old Crystal Imsage VS2.0 with a Dvdo VP30 so I can go from the Dish component output to RGBHV on my xg135. That should work ok, right?

I'm not really a video processor guy...I think it should work, I use component on a Dish 211 to a Moome DVI card that also has a component input. The DVI input on the Moome doesn't handshake right with the Dish 211. You might try HDMI input on the VP30, IMO its best not to introduce another A/D-D/A conversion, however it may need a HDFury or Moome if the Dish receiver requires HDCP with the digital path.

Mike

Crescent

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jan 2, 2009

Both the Sony BDP-S550 and Panasonic DMP-BD55 state that they will do 720P from the component outputs. I can use my existing HTPC for standard DVD. However, if I like it the only other thing I need is a component switcher to the component input card in the ISS.

The only other thing I can think of as an issue is that the picture won't be centered the same in the new player as the HD box that shares the component input.

Is the centering of the picture an attribute of the source components or the component input card in the switcher?

Bob_M

· #18 · Jan 2, 2009

Quote:
I'm not really a video processor guy...I think it should work, I use component on a Dish 211 to a Moome DVI card that also has a component input. The DVI input on the Moome doesn't handshake right with the Dish 211. You might try HDMI input on the VP30, IMO its best not to introduce another A/D-D/A conversion, however it may need a HDFury or Moome if the Dish receiver requires HDCP with the digital path.

I assumed I couldn't run hdmi from the dish 622 (I think that's what I'm getting) to the vp30 because the vp30 would not output rgbhv if the input is hdmi, is that only true if the hdcp flag is turned on in the content, and that may not always be true for dish satellite sources?

I'm just learning about hdmi so hopefully these questions aren't too stupid.

Crescent

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jan 5, 2009

Is the centering of the picture an attribute of the source components or the component input card in the switcher?

I just need this last answer before I pull the trigger on a stb. Currently, I only have two inputs. The HTPC goes through the VGA card and the HD Cable box goes through the component input card, both in the ISS switcher. They use different input settings on the PJ because one is negative sync. So I can't really tell if the centering is input card or source related.

Jesse S

· #20 · Jan 5, 2009

AnydvdHD + vga = done

or

x264

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

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