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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there!

Starting my first surround sound home theater system for use in a mancave/den sort of scenario and wanted to see if you guys felt like I was making the right buying decisions given my circumstances.

Ok, so I need to buy all of this at Best Buy because I work there so I get an employee discount. Because of this, I will not be listing costs but assume its around where I want my budget to be. However, I always prefer better bang for my buck so it doesn't mean that I don't want to go cheaper.

It will be used for 50% games, 30% tv, 20% movies. I want to be as future-proofed as possible (within reasonable costs). Because of that, I'm sticking to Atmos-capable speakers--either via add-on or built within the speaker. I'm starting with a 2.1.2 setup (with the eventual goal to be 5.1.4)

So without further ado, here is what I'm going for so far:

-2x Pioneer Elite Floorstanding SP-EFS73

ya, good?

But my problems start quickly... every single subwoofer that BBY sells seems to get a bad rap. There seems to be a love it or hate it feeling on the Def Tech Supercubes and Martin Logan Dynamos but that's kind of where my head is at. I want to stay at around $5-600 retail at the most. Is it possible to get an internet direct sub at such a great price and value that it would outweigh getting a B&M sub on a discount? and finally, is it necessary to get a subwoofer immiedately if I'm getting the above floorstanders?

Ok, so sweet sub- check.

But what about the receiver?? It needs to be Atmos capable and, hopefully, DTS: X capable (eventually). And of course I want it to safely power my speakers and sub and be able to eventually go to a 5.1.4 system.

Ok, so sweet receiver- check.

But do I have all the needed accessories?

Was going to get this speaker wire (SKU: 8632037 at bestbuy.com) and these banana plugs (SKU: 4224262 at bestbuy.com) and would cut the wire manually. Are there any tips in regards to that? Do I need a different kind of cable for the sub and what is a good recommendation from Best Buy if so (don't mind getting an overpriced brand here)?

So does that cover everything I'll need to connect?

And I guess just for kicks I'll throw the proposed TV in there in case anyone wants to comment for fun:

Sony XBR65X850B

HOWEVER, debating if I should get the new 2015 model instead.
Also debating if i should wait for an HDR capable TV (like I believe the new 2015 Samsung will be)
Needs low input lag for gaming

Well thanks all for any guidance you can provide. I know the above is in-depth to say the least so feel free to pick and choose what you want to bother with, I just want to get some good feedback.

Thank you!
 

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Hi there!

Starting my first surround sound home theater system for use in a mancave/den sort of scenario and wanted to see if you guys felt like I was making the right buying decisions given my circumstances.

Ok, so I need to buy all of this at Best Buy because I work there so I get an employee discount. Because of this, I will not be listing costs but assume its around where I want my budget to be. However, I always prefer better bang for my buck so it doesn't mean that I don't want to go cheaper.

It will be used for 50% games, 30% tv, 20% movies.
Most people who state these figures change their proportions once the system is built. It doesn't matter anyway, good sound is good sound.
I want to be as future-proofed as possible (within reasonable costs). Because of that, I'm sticking to Atmos-capable speakers--either via add-on or built within the speaker. I'm starting with a 2.1.2 setup (with the eventual goal to be 5.1.4)

So without further ado, here is what I'm going for so far:

-2x Pioneer Elite Floorstanding SP-EFS73

ya, good?
Lots of predictions around on this. Mine would be: Atmos and it's ilk will remain tiny niche markets for many reasons. Yet good ol' 5.1 is here to stay. I wouldn't let the possibility of more than 5.1 influence any speaker decisions now. You can't go wrong with 3 good mains...that's' 3 matching, equal, identical, not different, mains...in other words, no weird center channel speakers that don't match L&R. Have fun with that one.

Sorry, I'm ambivalent about the speaker choice above. I'd shop somewhere besides BB though. There are several on-line direct speaker companies that will sell you speakers "on approval" with a full 30 day audition and return policy.

But my problems start quickly... every single subwoofer that BBY sells seems to get a bad rap. There seems to be a love it or hate it feeling on the Def Tech Supercubes and Martin Logan Dynamos but that's kind of where my head is at. I want to stay at around $5-600 retail at the most. Is it possible to get an internet direct sub at such a great price and value that it would outweigh getting a B&M sub on a discount?
Google is your friend. Take a look at SVS and Hsu Research to name but two.
and finally, is it necessary to get a subwoofer immiedately if I'm getting the above floorstanders?
The function of a sub is mutually exclusive of any other speaker, regardless of size or shape or bass capability. Yes, it's necessary. Having big bass-cable mains is not a sub for a sub. Frankly, to do it right, you want two subs.
Ok, so sweet sub- check.

But what about the receiver?? It needs to be Atmos capable and, hopefully, DTS: X capable (eventually). And of course I want it to safely power my speakers and sub and be able to eventually go to a 5.1.4 system.

Ok, so sweet receiver- check.
There's almost no Atmos material to play, even less Auro, and zero DTS:X. Again, these things will always be a very tiny niche market, probably won't even do as well as 3d. Anyway, some of the Atmos-capable AVRs of today will be upgradable to DTS:X, some won't. You won't really know now. And Auro is a whole other issue, with different speaker locations, etc. Anyway, the presence of Atmos on some lines has eliminated good room calibration, odd choice, but that's what's going on. More important than Atmos and the like is good room calibration, and nothing beats Audyssey XT32. Skip the Atmos, get Audyssey XT32, you can use it right now and it will benefit you. Don't think of an AVR as a 10 year property, it's more like 4-6, then upgrade to whatever is cool then, and they have the kinks worked out...and we see if any of the 3D sound concepts are still afloat.

Speakers, if bought right the first time, can last you several decades. AVRs, not so much, TVs, not at all. Disc players are now disposable and the concept of physical media is slowly vanishing. Get your last speakers first, plan to upgrade everything else a few years down the road.
But do I have all the needed accessories?

Was going to get this speaker wire (SKU: 8632037 at bestbuy.com) and these banana plugs (SKU: 4224262 at bestbuy.com) and would cut the wire manually. Are there any tips in regards to that?
Monoprice.com
Do I need a different kind of cable for the sub and what is a good recommendation from Best Buy if so (don't mind getting an overpriced brand here)?
Sub have built-in amplifiers, the wire you use to connect them is not speaker wire. Monoprice.com

I don't quite get the affinity for Best Buy, mostly they're a rip off.
So does that cover everything I'll need to connect?
You didn't list HDMI cables. Monoprice.com. Short/thin/passive is fine, long runs need to be heavy/thicker, or active (Redmere).

The money you save buying your wires and cables from Monoprice should be spend on speakers.;)
And I guess just for kicks I'll throw the proposed TV in there in case anyone wants to comment for fun:

Sony XBR65X850B
Nice display. I own one. Great out-of-the-box calibration, the apps aren't awful. If you like really dead blacks all the time, it's going to be disappointing. Edge-lit LED has that issue, but it's only noticeable with white titles on a black background, otherwise pretty good. Fades to black go to dead black. Each unit is different, it took me two units to get one that was good enough. The Samsung technology produces inky-black blacks, but the Sony picture is better in just about every other aspect. The 4K upscaling works very well, and 4K content looks great if you can find any. Netflix and Youtube on the sets built-in apps will get you at least some demo material.

One bug is very half-baked remote control commands, but since you didn't mention any sort of system control that's probably not an issue. Sony did a terrible job with opening controls to integrators, leaving off stupid things like a discreet "ON" command from IP/RS232 and IR. How stupid is that? They supply two remotes, a conventional with a rather error prone layout, and a touch pad remote, which is...well...touchy. Probably the set's weak spot.

HOWEVER, debating if I should get the new 2015 model instead.
Also debating if i should wait for an HDR capable TV (like I believe the new 2015 Samsung will be)
Needs low input lag for gaming
All the great new developments in display tech (UHD/4K, HDR, etc.) have not been standardized completely, and it's a sure thing whatever you buy now won't do some part of it in a couple of years. Again, it may not matter, because if there's very little content to play. Not much will change in 2015 either, your wait for a standardize set will be more like two years. Then there will be a wait for compliant content.

One gotcha: if you get a 4K TV, make sure it's HDCP 2.2 capable, and that your AVR is also, or you won't pass 4K content to it. The Sony is, and most AVRs are becoming HDCP 2.2 now. Watch out for discount deals that aren't though. I doubt you'll hear any of that from BB.

Do your own research on lag for gaming. It's a big variable, but gamers have tested this stuff. It's not generally in specs. Have yourself a googlefest.
Well thanks all for any guidance you can provide. I know the above is in-depth to say the least so feel free to pick and choose what you want to bother with, I just want to get some good feedback.

Thank you!
You might consider an Apple TV even with the Sony's built-in apps. We like to be able to access as many on-line content libraries as possible, the iTunes library is not small. Refurb Apple TVs are like $69.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Lots of predictions around on this. Mine would be: Atmos and it's ilk will remain tiny niche markets for many reasons. Yet good ol' 5.1 is here to stay. I wouldn't let the possibility of more than 5.1 influence any speaker decisions now. You can't go wrong with 3 good mains...that's' 3 matching, equal, identical, not different, mains...in other words, no weird center channel speakers that don't match L&R. Have fun with that one.

Sorry, I'm ambivalent about the speaker choice above. I'd shop somewhere besides BB though. There are several on-line direct speaker companies that will sell you speakers "on approval" with a full 30 day audition and return policy.
So I'm shopping at BBY specifically because I have the employee discount which, correct me if I'm wrong, is good enough that the speakers seem to go from 'meh' value to 'good'/'great' value although it does suck that they are missing some tops brands.

Point heard on Atmos though, maybe its cause im a tech geek but to even have a few examples of this new type of surround sound seemed very cool to me. But as you said, I want my speakers to last a really long time and I had read through multiple reviews that the Pioneer Elite Atmos speakers are legitimate speakers (and excellent bang for your buck) aside from the Atmos functionality. So for me, I see it as a nice bonus that's killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Was I reading those reviews wrong? Is there actually a much better choice in that price range?

Your final point about getting a matching main is confusing me. So you're saying get the center channel from this Pioneer Elite system (not now but eventually) is a bad idea? Or is it already "matching, identical, equal"? Are you also saying its a bad idea to get towers and a center bookshelf instead of 3 bookshelfs (with 1 being that center channel)?

Google is your friend. Take a look at SVS and Hsu Research to name but two.
I am actually very familiar with those 2 brands, my question was more around--if I can get one of these mediocre tier subwoofers at a discount, am I still better off ignoring that and going ID? Is it actually THAT much better for the price?

Skip the Atmos, get Audyssey XT32, you can use it right now and it will benefit you. Don't think of an AVR as a 10 year property, it's more like 4-6, then upgrade to whatever is cool then, and they have the kinks worked out...and we see if any of the 3D sound concepts are still afloat.
Never heard of that before before but very good tip to make sure my AVR has that feature.

All the great new developments in display tech (UHD/4K, HDR, etc.) have not been standardized completely, and it's a sure thing whatever you buy now won't do some part of it in a couple of years. Again, it may not matter, because if there's very little content to play. Not much will change in 2015 either, your wait for a standardize set will be more like two years. Then there will be a wait for compliant content.

One gotcha: if you get a 4K TV, make sure it's HDCP 2.2 capable, and that your AVR is also, or you won't pass 4K content to it. The Sony is, and most AVRs are becoming HDCP 2.2 now. Watch out for discount deals that aren't though. I doubt you'll hear any of that from BB.

Do your own research on lag for gaming. It's a big variable, but gamers have tested this stuff. It's not generally in specs. Have yourself a googlefest.
Thanks for the tips on the TV side here, it looked like Sony had the lowest input lag overall and just wanted to make sure my head was in the right place.


All your points were right on, my replies were merely in the interest of a conversation--specifically I'm a bit more curious why these Pioneer Elite speakers might not stand out in that budget range as the reviews have been so stellar aside from the Atmos capability.
 

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^^^ I find it ironic that a BB employee who works there, and can easily chat with his/her co-workers, comes to AVS forum and trusts people he/she does not know at all .....

What does that say about the quality of trust of BB people knowing their "stuff" when an insider reaches out for information and purchase decisions?

OP;
I strongly suggest you read the posts in this sticky, get some education, and make your informed choices on purchase decisions.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...24554-setting-up-your-home-theater-101-a.html

p.s. dont forget about room acoustics either ..jump into that rabbit hole is deep, welcome to AVS forum also
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
^^^ I find it ironic that a BB employee who works there, and can easily chat with his/her co-workers, comes to AVS forum and trusts people he/she does not know at all .....

What does that say about the quality of trust of BB people knowing their "stuff" when an insider reaches out for information and purchase decisions?

OP;
I strongly suggest you read the posts in this sticky, get some education, and make your informed choices on purchase decisions.


[/B][/U]p.s. dont forget about room acoustics either ..jump into that rabbit hole is deep, welcome to AVS forum also
Ahha, I've always been one to trust the internet more than the salesman regardless of company and I'm obsessed with researching so while I have already talked to some people in the store here or there, I have too much choice anxiety still:).

I will say these communities are pretty intense, feels like no matter what I pick someone is going to **** on it for something hahaha

Thank you for the link I'll check it out.
 

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^^ I'm really brand neutral, as many will do the job fine.

What I'm really about in these forums is helping people by asking leading questions, sharing info with them, so they (you) can make your own informed decision and not later get buyers remorse. Truly spending $1,000's of dollars is a major purchase for 98% of us here, me included.

Who said "choose, but choose wisely"?
 

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It figures that, since you work at Best Buy, you would be a gear-oriented head.

Though it hasn't been emphasized, I will do it now: Don't buy any gear until you have added treatment (read: absorption) to your listening space to get rid of all those image-blurring reflections. It's not as sexy and instant-gratifying as purchasing new gear, but it's more impactful on the end result.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It figures that, since you work at Best Buy, you would be a gear-oriented head.

Though it hasn't been emphasized, I will do it now: Don't buy any gear until you have added treatment (read: absorption) to your listening space to get rid of all those image-blurring reflections. It's not as sexy and instant-gratifying as purchasing new gear, but it's more impactful on the end result.
I am going to be in the basement of a townhome I'm renting so I can't/don't want to do any serious work...what can I do within the room that isn't hideous to look at and will do this needed absorption??
-----------------------

So due to some heavy thought and people in this thread, I've decided to ditch the huge emphasis on niche tech like atmos and go for a very solid 2.0 or 2.1 system.

Ideally, if the L/R speakers can get me enough bass to get by on a 2.0 for a little bit, I can go nicer on those first 2 due to not worrying about buying a sub.

So the budget is around $2000 retail for those first set of speakers. Eyeing up either the Martin Logan Motion 40's, 60xt's, or the ESL's but I feel like the room isn't THAT big (needs space from walls) and the ESL's seem to have such a small sweet spot that I'm not sure if I want something that picky. So debating if the 60xt seems like a worthwhile place to start instead of the 40's but it could just be overkill. I'm hoping the 60xt's would have more bass so I could hold of on getting a subwoofer until I'm ready to drop more money.

Otherwise, I'm also going to be looking at the equivalent Bowers & Wilkins too and seeing if that sound seems to be more appealing to my ear. Any other thoughts on the differences between the 2 brands would be helpful.
 

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Electrostatic planar (dipole) speakers may have issues with placement and matching to dynamic drivers in other channels (specifically the center). Unless you have a good reason to go that route you might want to google the forum for more information about electrostatics in surround sound. Seamless image might be difficult to achieve and there might be special considerations for room treatment.

http://hometheaterreview.com/martinlogan-motion-60xt-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/?page=2

The off-axis response of the 60xt tweeter is weak and the bass has a hump at 80Hz plus the impedance indicates it is difficult to drive. The reviewer liked the sound overall especially the tweeter and plugged the bookshelves with a subwoofer as a likely winner. The 40 might fit the space better if you are in cramped quarters.

The Pioneer towers you were considering are only 86dB sensitivity. They would sound approximately half as loud as the 60xt for a given input.

You should post some dimensions and characteristics of the space (i.e. penetrations leading to other rooms) so people can give you better advice.

Atmos may be niche for now, but with its adoption in theaters and its efficiency of information encoding, its use in home theater may become popular, especially regarding flexibility in speaker configuration and the capability to map any given program to the available speakers without having to do upmix or downmix between fixed channel formats.

IMO your plan to use Atmos capable speakers is a good way of future-proofing the system and experimenting with new tech. If you can put off this purchase for a few more months while new program material is released there might also be many more speaker choices available too. Suggest you ask around to find out what is in the plan for Atmos speakers from various manufacturers.
 

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Ahha, I've always been one to trust the internet more than the salesman regardless of company and I'm obsessed with researching ....
I am going to be in the basement of a townhome I'm renting ...So due to some heavy thought and people in this thread, I've decided to ditch the huge emphasis on niche tech like atmos and go for a very solid 2.0 or 2.1 system....
This last bit is the key realization - if you'd be happy with a good 2.0 system, it's music you're after, not gear, so spend your money on gear you'll want to keep. A solid foundation is something to build upon as your circumstances change.

I can see trusting the internet over a salesman, but I have issues with trusting the internet in the first place. Better yet to do your own research and take your own data. That leads to a recommendation for a basic acoustic measurement system. Something that allows you to measure your room, and how a speaker sounds, for comparision with your perception of the room and speaker. Establish that link between what you hear and what you're listening to, objectively, and you'll be way ahead!
Measurement SW: http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
Link to REW set-up:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...surement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html

Note that a lot of folks do very well without a mic/measurement system, but those with one are a step ahead, and more importantly, know when they're done!

Have fun,
Frank
 

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For retail speakers, I preferred the sound of B&W 803's over most other speakers that I've heard to-date. There are MANY speakers I haven't heard, reference quality or otherwise, so take that for what it's worth...
I like a very flat, transparent, clinical sound, and the B&W FST-enabled speakers give that.

A lot of speakers weren't anywhere close to being transparent or undistorted.

Now keep in mind that was 7 years ago so I've been out of the auditioning arena for a while (things change).

Currently, I prefer DIY SEOS speakers for movies, TV and games. With the B&W 803's coming in second place.


I will warn you now, B&W's are very unkind to the electronics that power them. They dip to 3-ohms and require 200watts per channel to sound at their best.
Which almost always means an external amp and pre-outs.
I've seen them draw as much as 400watts per speaker at loud levels, so you'll need more if you don't want to clip.

Here is an old vid of mine in my old theater with 2000watts per 803 (and another 26kW if you include all the subwoofers.)
As you can see, my 10,000watt amp is at half power here.
This isn't even a bass song. However, this song is Hi-Fi music with a very demanding bass requirement, do not let it's lack of distortion fool you this is fairly loud. My camera's mics are at their limits here.



A lot of people use this measurement mic (UMIK-1) in combination with REW (it's several times better than the mic that comes with your AVR.)
http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html
It is laboratory calibrated for 5hz to 25khz +-0db, and goes up to 130db (with modifications). It's USB.

These here vids are of my current-day DIY SEOS system as captured with the UMIK-1 so you can get a feel for how good the mic is (and the SEOS speakers too, why not?)
I'm pretty anal when it comes to sound quality, I tend to use reference-level electronics whenever possible (I'm that picky).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
For retail speakers, I preferred the sound of B&W 803's over most other speakers that I've heard to-date. There are MANY speakers I haven't heard, reference quality or otherwise, so take that for what it's worth...
I like a very flat, transparent, clinical sound, and the B&W FST-enabled speakers.

A lot of speakers weren't anywhere close to being transparent or undistorted.

Now keep in mind that was 7 years ago so I've been out of the auditioning arena for a while (things change).

Currently, I prefer DIY SEOS speakers for movies, TV and games. With the B&W 803's coming in second place.


I will warn you now, B&W's are very unkind to the electronics that power them. They dip to 3-ohms and require 200watts per channel to sound at their best.
Which almost always means an external amp and pre-outs.
I've seen them draw as much as 400watts per speaker at loud levels, so you'll need more if you don't want to clip.

Here is an old vid of mine in my old theater with 2000watts per 803 (and another 26kW if you include all the subwoofers.)
As you can see, my 10,000watt amp is at half power here.
This isn't even a bass song. However, this song is Hi-Fi music with a very demanding bass requirement, do not let it's lack of distortion fool you this is fairly loud. My camera's mics are at their limits here.



A lot of people use this measurement mic (UMIK-1) in combination with REW (it's several times better than the mic that comes with your AVR.)
It is laboratory calibrated for 5hz to 25khz +-0db, and goes up to 130db (with modifications). It's USB.

These are vids are of my current-day DIY SEOS system as captured with the UMIK-1 so you can get a feel for how good the mic is (and the SEOS speakers too, why not?)
I'm pretty anal when it comes to sound quality, I tend to use reference-level electronics whenever possible (I'm that picky).
Wow what a system. Just looking at the beauty of it and just imagining what the sound must be like in person makes me want to go to the store immediately (but alas I don't move in until a month or so).

I'm def not looking to get speakers that need all that extra juice and I'd need to worry about. From what I've heard ML's are pretty easy power wise? But also, I had someone tell me that nowadays most of the receivers can power most of speakers without issues (obviously at a very high end this isn't true but I'm thinking for most people)--is this actually true and/or are there any other brands I should worry about?

You know people talk about loudness but I'm not exactly looking to kill my hearing or notify everyone within 5 blocks that I'm watching a movie...when I'm looking at the Martin Logan Motion 40's or 60xt's are both of those more than enough loudness for most (also thinking about comparable models across brands)? I'm thinking trying to go to the 60xt might just be completely unnecessary given this is more of a personal media room so far but I'm sure there are benefits I'm not realizing (nor do i really want to get that upgrade itch anytime soon).

Thanks for the thoughts!
 

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Sound is pretty much 40% room acoustics, 40% speaker quality, 15% electronics, 5% everything else.

So spending your money on speakers and acoustics will give you the biggest ROI.
and spending on wires is almost pointless, any decent cable will do up until 1700watts RMS (i.e. an amp that requires a +20amp breaker).
As for AVR's, a $200 AVR will get you 90% of the performance of a $10,000 separates system. You pay dearly for that last 10% of BQ/SQ. A $500-$1500 AVR is good-enough for the 99%
Only anal golden ear'd [email protected] like me notice such differences -> https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html if you can pass this hearing-test then you quality (IMO).

With the UMIK you'll be able to scientifically quantify the performance of the speaker, the REW charts reveal enough details to get a general idea of the performance of a given speaker in a given room.

My DIY speakers and DIY subs are as flat as one could ever really hope for, or reasonably expect.



The frequency response chart is only one chart of many lenses to view the system performance (there is also: distortion plots, phase, and decay rates).
Obviously you aren't gonna learn it all overnight. But if you read the user manual and google stuff it isn't hard to learn over a weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Updating you all on the journey see if you have any more thoughts...

I've really changed my outlook on this whole thing after coming to terms with my horrible upgraditis i know i get. I'm not going to limit myself to BBY anymore and will actually be getting a set of speakers that will hopefully last me decades. I was pretty set on the ML motion 40's at the time but realized I'd be wanting to get some better non-BBY speakers down the road eventually and figured why waste the initial cost when i knew what I really wanted.

So here's where I am at, I was debating between the song tower, Sierra tower, and phillharmonic slim tower..

as i'm using this mostly for HT it seems like everything is leaning me towards the Sierra Tower!

I definitely plan on getting the custom ribbon tweeter in there--and will prob go for the bamboo too :)

I plan on pairing it with a denon x4100 so that i can get that sweet audyssey xt32 hookup (and the atmos potential is worth it over the x4000 to me)

i finally feel excited about it guys. am i making the right decision here? the sierra towers seem to have no negatives at all about that and thats what I want out of my speakers.

but just to double check, these WILL be a markable improvement over the ML motion 40's correct?
 
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