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Discussion Starter #1
I was going to get one of the Optoma Darbee ones but just realized they wont do FI. Maybe there is no chance to find this but anyone seeing a budget DLP (this is only for 3D movies), that does FI?

I also saw this old article which seems odd claiming that an LCD is better than the DLP at 3D:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-HC-2150-vs-Optoma-HD39Darbee-review.htm

Thank you all!
 

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Currently FI is available only on half of UHD DLP models, it depends on your budget but I don't know what is the entry model with that function.

What is better for 3d? Dlp has less crosstalk and better native motion handling without fi, however 3lcd offer more brightness, color lumens, and fi availability on fhd models, and lower input lag for gaming, air filter, and less expensive original lamps.

A darbee 5000 processor with 2d/3d enhancements can be purchased separately, and used with other displays too, it works only in fhd.
 
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The best 3d performance(aside from dual projector passive 3d) is with frame packing at 23p, 144hz triple flash, and using frame interpolation would require using top/bottom 120hz.

I would try rgb led/laser instead of focusing on frame interpolation, which results in artifacts that will impact 3d performance.

Something like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254639406641

The rgb led/laser dlp has 100% color brightness. That panasonic does 900 lumens calibrated, the epson 5050ub does 1000 lumens calibrated with a new bulb. It also has 17ms input lag. No lamps to replace, and a sealed lightpath(no filter).

DLPs superior motion is a result of a 0.01ms black to white pixel response time with 0 voltage overshoot(inverse ghosting). Thats the reason for the lack of crosstalk, and 3chip dlp or rgb led/laser single chip will have better motion than single chip color wheel. Reason being is the color frequency is much faster than a color wheel, resulting in no rainbow effect. Also, the dmd switches off between color wheel segments which results in a flicker, due to dlps impulse technology, motion persisitance is reduced. DLPs ultra fast pixel response times with frame packing 3d results in superior spatial resolution. When avoiding the color wheel depth and dimensionality is exceptional and second to none.
 

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The pj in my sign has full hd 1080p frame packing 23/24p and frame interpolation making 3d eye friendly and smooth like a passive screen, the interpolated high frame rate improves 3d perception and realism, up to 480hz refresh in 3d with fi, crosstalk is rare, with decent glasses, only on high contrast popouts, artifacts depend on textures and they are rare too and don't disturb me. We can't have everything in our budget of course, and we all have our own preference to respect, for me 3d realism is a bright hfr like, smooth, eye friendly picture, and I prefer to suffer a bit of crosstalk and artifacts for 1% of the movie, than low brightness and low frame rate, stuttering and tearing for 90%.

An Epson HC2150 (TW5650 EU) technical review with tests of the real brightness and native contrast values...
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/25/11/2018/test-epson-eh-tw5650-lavis-de-gregory/
 
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The pj in my sign has full hd 1080p frame packing 23/24p and frame interpolation making 3d eye friendly and smooth like a passive screen, the interpolated high frame rate improves 3d perception and realism, up to 480hz refresh in 3d with fi, crosstalk is rare, with decent glasses, only on high contrast popouts, artifacts depend on textures and they are rare too and don't disturb me. We can't have everything in our budget of course, and we all have our own preference to respect, for me 3d realism is a bright hfr like, smooth, eye friendly picture, and I prefer to suffer a bit of crosstalk and artifacts for 1% of the movie, than low brightness and low frame rate, stuttering and tearing for 90%. An Epson HC2150 (TW5650 EU) technical review with tests of the real brightness and native contrast values...
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/25/11/2018/test-epson-eh-tw5650-lavis-de-gregory/
I'd wonder if at 480hz or 2ms that's enough time for the liquid crystal to modulate, which usually takes 5-10ms gray to gray and can be up to 20-30milliseconds black to white. Additionally when you have 3 panels changing states at different rates the odds of hitting the correct shade or even full illuminance at 2ms is very low, especially out of black. I wonder if that would affect overall illuminance or perceived brightness.

Due to the leds and mirrors of the dlp chip, the projector has a brighter appearance compared to a uhp bulb and layer of polarized liquid crystal, and the low level color detail of video rendering is much improved, which provides better shadow detail and color contrast giving the image a brighter appearance. Native on/off contast is about the same as the Epson, around 1,500 - 2,000:1. The panasonic has a dimming function but shouldn't be used as it's not tuned to home video, but that means brighter highlights in low APL scenes since no dimming/iris is used. Calibrated brightness is similar, and the panasonic has brighter uncalibrated modes as well. Due to the lack of sample and hold and the impulse response of dlp, 23p stuttering/tearing is not an issue. Though it will look more like natural matched cadence 23p than 60hz frame interpolation. There is difference between rgb dlp and color wheel dlp motion performance as well. I always had trouble watching anime at 23p on any display, due to source stutter(accentuated by the large image of projection) and consistently used frame blending at 60hz for years, as I didn't like the look of frame interpolation. But when switching to rgb led dlp, and the lack of flicker and rainbows from the color wheel, 23p anime became completely watchable and comfortable to look at for hours. Motion is silky smooth and source stutter is as resolved as can be without adding frames. The dmd normally operates internally at 48hz for 23p 2d content, with a 900hz color frequency, and then it's 144hz for 3d.

I'd be very interested to hear your assessment of an rgb dlp projector like the panasonic compared to the Epson. It's been some time since I've seen Epson's 3d, but if not much has changed the difference in motion and dimensionality vs rgb dlp was not small. Of course there's no substitute for brightness, especially when a large screen is concerned.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Currently FI is available only on half of UHD DLP models, it depends on your budget but I don't know what is the entry model with that function.

What is better for 3d? Dlp has less crosstalk and better native motion handling without fi, however 3lcd offer more brightness, color lumens, and fi availability on fhd models, and lower input lag for gaming, air filter, and less expensive original lamps.

A darbee 5000 processor with 2d/3d enhancements can be purchased separately, and used with other displays too, it works only in fhd.
Yeah picking DLP is always a concern coming from the black levels and contrast of my JVC so I better make sure I buy from a store with a good return policy just in case or by used so I dont lose much if I need to resell.
 

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The pj in my sign has full hd 1080p frame packing 23/24p and frame interpolation making 3d eye friendly and smooth like a passive screen, the interpolated high frame rate improves 3d perception and realism, up to 480hz refresh in 3d with fi, crosstalk is rare, with decent glasses, only on high contrast popouts, artifacts depend on textures and they are rare too and don't disturb me. We can't have everything in our budget of course, and we all have our own preference to respect, for me 3d realism is a bright hfr like, smooth, eye friendly picture, and I prefer to suffer a bit of crosstalk and artifacts for 1% of the movie, than low brightness and low frame rate, stuttering and tearing for 90%.

An Epson HC2150 (TW5650 EU) technical review with tests of the real brightness and native contrast values...
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/25/11/2018/test-epson-eh-tw5650-lavis-de-gregory/
So the HC2150 does the 3D interpolation so I get the smooth look of the so called (a term that I HATE as I find it silly) "Soap Opera" effect? If ghosting is as rare as you describe on it, that one could be the one for me indeed. The reason I was considering DLP was because I had them before and never had issues with crosstalk but of course, the contrast and blacks well...

Thank you!
 

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So the HC2150 does the 3D interpolation so I get the smooth look of the so called (a term that I HATE as I find it silly) "Soap Opera" effect? If ghosting is as rare as you describe on it, that one could be the one for me indeed. The reason I was considering DLP was because I had them before and never had issues with crosstalk but of course, the contrast and blacks well...

Thank you!
Well, FI has 3 levels, if people really dislike SOE(I agree with you) I guess they can tolerate FI on Low, still giving that passive screen effect without SOE and almost zero artifacts. I have a different opinion at least for 3D, it's purpose IS that realism like being there that also SOE gives (from FI High or native HFR) bringing life to things and actors as we see in reality and being alive, not a poor sequence of frames. For 2D and more traditional movies I agree FI or HFR can be a problem, either directors and actors change their way to play or it should be added/reduced in post production for some action scenes and not for others.

Read this post about 3D Projectors and brightness/contrast:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/191-3d-displays/2759425-4k-projectors-3d-7.html#post59577398
 

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I'd wonder if at 480hz or 2ms that's enough time for the liquid crystal to modulate, which usually takes 5-10ms gray to gray and can be up to 20-30seconds black to white. Additionally when you have 3 panels changing states at different rates the odds of hitting the correct shade or even full illuminance at 2ms is very low, especially out of black. I wonder if that would affect overall illuminance or perceived brightness.

Due to the leds and mirrors of the dlp chip, the projector has a brighter appearance compared to a uhp bulb and layer of polarized liquid crystal, and the low level color detail of video rendering is much improved, which provides better shadow detail and color contrast giving the image a brighter appearance. Native on/off contast is about the same as the Epson, around 1,500 - 2,000:1. The panasonic has a dimming function but shouldn't be used as it's not tuned to home video, but that means brighter highlights in low APL scenes since no dimming/iris is used. Calibrated brightness is similar, and the panasonic has brighter uncalibrated modes as well. Due to the lack of sample and hold and the impulse response of dlp, 23p stuttering/tearing is not an issue. Though it will look more like natural matched cadence 23p than 60hz frame interpolation. There is difference between rgb dlp and color wheel dlp motion performance as well. I always had trouble watching anime at 23p on any display, due to source stutter(accentuated by the large image of projection) and consistently used frame blending at 60hz for years, as I didn't like the look of frame interpolation. But when switching to rgb led dlp, and the lack of flicker and rainbows from the color wheel, 23p anime became completely watchable and comfortable to look at for hours. Motion is silky smooth and source stutter is as resolved as can be without adding frames. The dmd normally operates internally at 48hz for 23p 2d content, with a 900hz color frequency, and then it's 144hz for 3d.

I'd be very interested to hear your assessment of an rgb dlp projector like the panasonic compared to the Epson. It's been some time since I've seen Epson's 3d, but if not much has changed the difference in motion and dimensionality vs rgb dlp was not small. Of course there's no substitute for brightness, especially when a large screen is concerned.
For that 480hz frequency it is a bit mysterious indeed, for example they claim if should be for the glasses but you can't find that value in the Epson glasses specs. As far as I know the only glasses that declare higher frequency than 120Hz are the Xpand X105 240Hz. Anyway I have the Epson, Xpand and Samsung and they all work, Epson and Xpand better less crosstalk but it's hard to understand if it is thanks to the refresh or darker lenses.

Native motion handling is still an issue on LCD without FI, and also with the recent 4K models FI is unavailable on UHD input. I'd prefer to wait if there are new pjs after September.
 

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Well, FI has 3 levels, if people really dislike SOE(I agree with you) I guess they can tolerate FI on Low, still giving that passive screen effect without SOE and almost zero artifacts. I have a different opinion at least for 3D, it's purpose IS that realism like being there that also SOE gives (from FI High or native HFR) bringing life to things and actors as we see in reality and being alive, not a poor sequence of frames. For 2D and more traditional movies I agree FI or HFR can be a problem, either directors and actors change their way to play or it should be added/reduced in post production for some action scenes and not for others.

Read this post about 3D Projectors and brightness/contrast:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/191-3d-displays/2759425-4k-projectors-3d-7.html#post59577398
I think you misinterpreted my statement. I do NOT hate SOE be it for 3D or 2D. I LOVE it and hate 24fps with a passion in comparison. What I hate is the TERM calling it Soap Opera Effect. It always feels like a derogative term when it in reality it is more life like. We should instead call 24fps SSE (slide-show-effect) :D
So looks like that projector is surely worth a shot before going to a DLP and seeing I can deal with the DLP shortcomings.
Not sure if you have Thor Ragnarok but if you do on that scene when Loki and Thor meet with the sister and she destroys the hammer, do you see a bit of crosstalk on Loki or Thor when one is not in focus, or even the hammer or her face when she is holding it?
Cause that is one of the scenes where I see it the most noticeable.

Thanks
 

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I LOVE it and hate 24fps with a passion in comparison. What I hate is the TERM calling it Soap Opera Effect. It always feels like a derogative term when it in reality it is more life like. We should instead call 24fps SSE (slide-show-effect) :D
I wonder if the issue you have with 23p is motion persistence due to sample and hold and not neccesarily the lower frame rate. I had at one time grown accustomed to watching 3/2pulldown on an lcd tv. When I switched to a dlp projector(6x color wheel), 23p had a soap opera effect to it, due to the matched cadence and better motion imparted that realism, as dlp works on impulse instead of sample and hold and has much better natural motion persistence. It took some time to get used. But 23p with jvcs, epsons, or lcd tvs I dont like watching because of the sample and hold artifacts and the poor motion persistence. JVCs black frame insertion worked well, but even frame interpolation on low caused too many artifacts and didnt have the realism of 23p on dlp. Now using rgb led dlp projectors motion is crt good at 23p if not better.
 

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I wonder if the issue you have with 23p is motion persistence due to sample and hold and not neccesarily the lower frame rate. I had at one time grown accustomed to watching 3/2pulldown on an lcd tv. When I switched to a dlp projector(6x color wheel), 23p had a soap opera effect to it, due to the matched cadence and better motion imparted that realism, as dlp works on impulse instead of sample and hold and has much better natural motion persistence. It took some time to get used. But 23p with jvcs, epsons, or lcd tvs I dont like watching because of the sample and hold artifacts and the poor motion persistence. JVCs black frame insertion worked well, but even frame interpolation on low caused too many artifacts and didnt have the realism of 23p on dlp. Now using rgb led dlp projectors motion is crt good at 23p if not better.
It IS the frame rate. Up until now, all my projectors have been DLPs (except my very first one which was a Sony W400Q) and I wouldnt trade the smoothness of the JVC interpolation in high, for anything without interpolation. That is my personal preference, I wish all movies were released at least like the Hobbit was for example.
 

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It IS the frame rate. Up until now, all my projectors have been DLPs (except my very first one which was a Sony W400Q) and I wouldnt trade the smoothness of the JVC interpolation in high, for anything without interpolation. That is my personal preference, I wish all movies were released at least like the Hobbit was for example.
Gotcha ;]

I wonder how youd find rgb led dlp, as the lack of flicker and the higher color frequency really improves 23p. Additionally its performance with frame interpolation or frame blending is that much better as well. Watched knights of sidonia with SVP on a sim2 mico and holy moly it looked like 3d.
 

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I think you misinterpreted my statement. I do NOT hate SOE be it for 3D or 2D. I LOVE it and hate 24fps with a passion in comparison. What I hate is the TERM calling it Soap Opera Effect. It always feels like a derogative term when it in reality it is more life like. We should instead call 24fps SSE (slide-show-effect) :D
So looks like that projector is surely worth a shot before going to a DLP and seeing I can deal with the DLP shortcomings.
Not sure if you have Thor Ragnarok but if you do on that scene when Loki and Thor meet with the sister and she destroys the hammer, do you see a bit of crosstalk on Loki or Thor when one is not in focus, or even the hammer or her face when she is holding it?
Cause that is one of the scenes where I see it the most noticeable.

Thanks
We had some bidirectional misinterpretation :D when I said (I agree with you) I meant your criticism of the SOE definition, and I agree we should say SSE for 24fps!

I haven't that movie, but I can imagine, the problem is, I believe, if we can or cannot tolerate some crosstalk on rare 1% scenes (including the best scenes sometimes, unfortunately) or low brightness for the rest of the movie. It depends also on screen size and gain, assuming =>100" , and =
 
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Gotcha ;]

I wonder how youd find rgb led dlp, as the lack of flicker and the higher color frequency really improves 23p. Additionally its performance with frame interpolation or frame blending is that much better as well. Watched knights of sidonia with SVP on a sim2 mico and holy moly it looked like 3d.
can you reccomend me a 3d PJ from UK site
 

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thanks so this would be better than the DLP alternatives? I always thought DLP was better for 3D due to no cross talk
The price is difficult, finding an inexpensive used dlp projector with comparable brightness(and not even color brightness) to an epson5050ub is tough Dx If you use the good xpand glasses and aren't ultra sensitive to motion artifacts the epsons provide a good experience.

Ah, you know what, the uk model number threw me off, that's an old projector. If you do want to try this one there are cheaper ones on ebay too. But not as bright as the 5050 and that's some age on those panels
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Epson-EH-TW6100-3D-Full-HD-Projector-2300-Lumens-Contrast-40000-1-2x-HDMI-1080P/203026926411?hash=item2f45590b4b:g:OEwAAOSwjZZe1BmM

hmm... This is a 5020? Even something like this with a little age on the bulb may not be much brighter than budget dlp projectors, like say an old w1070 will give you 1400 lumens with a new bulb and uses an rgbrgb 6x color wheel, good motion, no crosstalk, average rainbows, good color brightness.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/videoproiettore-Epson-FULL-HD-1920X1080-3D-HDMI/233572191671?hash=item3661fccdb7:g:00IAAOSwZ19epwUC

I don't know if shipping and customs would drastically increase the cost of this, but this would be one of the better DLP projectors to use. Best motion and color depth you can get at this price with around 1000 lumens, but unlike the epsons which will go from 2000 lumens to 1500 lumens over the first couple hundred hours on the bulb, the solid state projectors won't decrease in brightness for thousands of hours.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-projector-PT-RZ470/254639406641?hash=item3b49b0fe31:g:AEIAAOSwtzle-q17

Otherwise for DLP I'd recommend finding brighter projectors like these. Higher fan noise and heat output, but that will give you a nice bright picture. Not quite comparable color performance to the epson 5050, but comparable brightness, and better motion/crosstalk. Just be sure to confirm the lens as they have multiple options https://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-EH505e.htm
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Optoma-EH505e-WUXGA-Projector-with-5-000-Lumens-Inc-Standard-Lens-New-Inc-Vat/174029009838?hash=item2884eff3ae:g:A-4AAOSwoOtdesH3
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-MR-JMG11-001-ACER-4713392096273-TV-DIGITAL-HOME-PROIETTORI-P6500-20000-1-5000A/363025324337?epid=2254348330&hash=item5485fed931:g:YdAAAOSwjDpe69tK
 

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