[lovingdvd]

Hi all - I'm hoping you guys can help clear up some confusion for me about how my Yamaha RX-V1400 works with regards to its speaker output options and bass.


I'm trying to fully understand the relationship between the Large vs. Small option, the LFE/Bass Out option, and the crossover frequency. I called Yamaha tech support but based on what I see in the manual they told me wrong info. Hopefully you guys can help me get this straight.


Here is what the Yamaha manual says for these options:


SMALL vs. LARGE:


- Select Large if you have a large xxx speaker. The unit directs the entire range of the xxx channel to the xxx speaker.


- Select Small if you have a small xxx speaker. The unit directs the low-frequency signals of the xxx channel to the speakers selected with "BASS OUT".


(substitute left/center/right where I have xxx above)



LFE/Bass Out


LFE signals carry low-frequency effects when this unit decodes a DD or DTS signal. The low-frequency signals can be directed to both left and right speakers, and to the subwoofer (subwoofer can be used for both stero reproduction and the sound field program).

Choices: SWFR, FRNT, BOTH. THX recommends SWFR.


Select SWFR if you connect a subwoofer. The unit directs all LFE and low-frequency signals to the subwoofer.


Select FRNT if you do not connect a subwoofer. The unit directs all LFE and low-frequency signals to the front speakers, even if you previously set the front speakers to small.


Select BOTH to direct LFE signals to the subwoofer. Other low-frequency signals are directed to both the subwoofer and the other front channels in accordance with your other speaker settings.


CROSS OVER


Use this feature to select a crossover frequency for all low-frequency signals. All frequencies below the selected frequencies will be sent to the subwoofer.

QUESTIONS



1) Assume I set all my speakers to small, the LFE/Bass Out to SWFR, and the crossover to 80hz. Now a 60hz signal comes it for the left channel. Am I correct that the the 60hz for this channel will not play from the left speaker but rather it will be redirected and play out of the subwoofer?


2) If I had my front speakers set to Large instead of Small, am I correct that the 60hz signal would not be crossed over, and the entire signal would be played out of the left speaker and nothing for it sent out of the sub?


3) Am I correct that the crossover frequency serves as a cutoff point, but only for speakers marked as SMALL? So in other words speakers marked as Large ignore the crossover completely, and for speakers set to Small the crossover is the point at which the cutoff occurs for that speaker?


4) The Yamaha tech rep I spoke to told me that if I set my front speakers to small but still want the low frequencies from those speakers, that I MUST set my LFE/Bass Out option to BOTH. He said he was positive about this. He went on to say that otherwise the low frequencies below my crossover for the front speakers would be thrown out and lost completely (not played through any speaker).


He went on to say that if I have the "LFE/Bass Out" option set to SWFR, then the sub will ONLY play LFE channel information.


THIS MAKES NO SENSE to me according to the manual. If I'm reading the manual correctly it clearly states that with the Bass Out option set to SWFR, the low frequencies from the other channels get redirected to the sub based on their settings (I assume this means its redirected only if those speakers are set to Small). This completely contradicts what the tech told me. I am confused - which is right??


5) My understanding according to the manual is that if I have LFE/Bass Out option set to BOTH, that it will send LFE information to the front speakers (contrary to what the tech told me). Is that right? If so I would never want to do this.


Overall I plan to set all my speakers on Small, the LFE/Bass Out option on SWFR, and the crossover to 60-80hz. My main concern is that I want the subwoofer to help out the fronts and surrounds with lower frequencies that are not in the LFE channel. Would these settings then be correct?


Thanks - I appreciate any info that will help me sort all this out!

 

[sdurani]

You are correct on all points. Extremely minor clarification on your description in question 2: the 60Hz signal would be sent to your left speaker but not necessarily "played out" of that speaker. If the speaker can't go low enough, it won't play back the 60Hz signal (hence the reason for using crossover filters).


The Yamaha rep was mistaken. The "Both" setting sends filtered bass (filtered from any speaker set to Small) to your subwoofer and also duplicates it in the front speakers. In order to do this, the front speakers will be run as Large (they'll be receiving a full range signal).


The settings you've chosen are a good starting point. Try both crossovers (60Hz and 80Hz) and choose the one that sounds better overall.


Sanjay

 

[lovingdvd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/0


You are correct on all points. Extremely minor clarification on your description in question 2: the 60Hz signal would be sent to your left speaker but not necessarily "played out" of that speaker. If the speaker can't go low enough, it won't play back the 60Hz signal (hence the reason for using crossover filters).

Thanks so much for the post. Regarding the above - right we are on the same page. My front speakers are rated down to 32hz so I assume it'll handle a 60hz frequency just fine which is why I wrote that.

Quote:
The Yamaha rep was mistaken. The "Both" setting sends filtered bass (filtered from any speaker set to Small) to your subwoofer and also duplicates it in the front speakers. In order to do this, the front speakers will be run as Large (they'll be receiving a full range signal).

Thanks for the clarification. Although I will not be running with it set to Both, I was wondering about this. More specifically I wonder what happens if you set the fronts to Small and the Bass Out to both - kinda defeats the purpose of the Small setting I suppose but not sure which the receiver would respect.

Quote:
The settings you've chosen are a good starting point. Try both crossovers (60Hz and 80Hz) and choose the one that sounds better overall.


Sanjay

My front left and right are rated down to 32hz and my center is rated to about 40-something I think. My surrounds are also rated down to 32hz. I read somewhere that in general you should set the crossover to one octave higher which would be about 60 hz right? I'll try both 60 and 80 and expiriement.


BTW if my fronts really are good at going down to 40hz would it pay to try that frequency? I have a new sub coming tomorrow which is very good HSU VTF-2 MK3 so I assume I'd be better to let it handle 60 or below, perhaps even 80 and below?


Lastly - I've been trying to get an answer about equalization answered in the forums for a couple days but no responses yet. I'd love to hear your impressions on this if you could please take look here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=790608 . Thanks!!

 

[JThiessen]

Does this philosophy apply to all sound effect settings? (ie., Dolby 5.1, 2 ch stereo, THX select, etc). I'd like my sub to play all low frequency material no matter what the source.

 

[SAVholic]

I have this receiver and had the same questions before.


Set the speakers to small even if their towers as lower -80hz frequencies are handled better by the sub. If you select LFE output to both you'll only will here this when listening to music, when watching a movie the LFE will be output by the sub even if you select "both".


My settings are;

all speakers to small

8 ohm settings even if mine are 6

LFE output - "both"

and subwoofer crossover frequency 90hz

 

[rvanya]

The other advantage of setting the speakers to small is that it takes some stress off of the amplifier you are using. Lower frequencies are harder on amplifiers in that it takes a lot of the reciever/amp's power to power them and will ultimately take some performance away from the main channels.


The first time I read about setting the speakers to small so that all bass goes to the sub, I noticed an instant increase in performance. The sub responded better, less sloppy on fast bass response. And it opened up the mains in the system.

 

[sdurani]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd /forum/post/0


I wonder what happens if you set the fronts to Small and the Bass Out to both - kinda defeats the purpose of the Small setting I suppose but not sure which the receiver would respect.

Can you use the Both setting when speakers are set to Small? I thought it required setting the speakers to Large.

Quote:
I read somewhere that in general you should set the crossover to one octave higher which would be about 60 hz right?

That's a good starting point, but I've had fine results setting the crossover right above the speakers' roll-off point. For example: if your speakers go down to 32Hz, you could try the 40Hz setting.

Quote:
BTW if my fronts really are good at going down to 40hz would it pay to try that frequency? I have a new sub coming tomorrow which is very good HSU VTF-2 MK3 so I assume I'd be better to let it handle 60 or below, perhaps even 80 and below?

The only way to know whether the 40Hz setting will sound better than 60 or 80 is to try it and listen. Your speakers and your sub are both capable of reproducing a 40Hz signal. But which one will reproduce it better? That what you need to find out, and the only way to do that is by experimenting.

Quote:
I've been trying to get an answer about equalization answered in the forums for a couple days but no responses yet. I'd love to hear your impressions on this...

I'm not really familiar with Yamaha's EQ system, so I can't really give much opinion on this. I would still make the same suggestion as crossovers: try the different EQ settings (Flat, Front, etc) and pick the one that sounds best.


Sanjay

 

[lovingdvd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by SAVholic /forum/post/0


I have this receiver and had the same questions before.


Set the speakers to small even if their towers as lower -80hz frequencies are handled better by the sub. If you select LFE output to both you'll only will here this when listening to music, when watching a movie the LFE will be output by the sub even if you select "both".


My settings are;

all speakers to small

8 ohm settings even if mine are 6

LFE output - "both"

and subwoofer crossover frequency 90hz

What's the point of the 6 ohm setting vs. 8 ohms. How do I even know which ohms my speakers are? And what's the impact of choosing 8 even if yours are 6?

 

[SAVholic]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd /forum/post/0


What's the point of the 6 ohm setting vs. 8 ohms. How do I even know which ohms my speakers are? And what's the impact of choosing 8 even if yours are 6?

Editorial Note about the Impedance Selector Switch (audioholics.com)

I recommend the "Minimum 8-ohms" setting even for 4-ohm speakers of moderate efficiency (>89dB SPL). Yamaha includes a" 6-ohm" setting to satisfy UL heat dissipation requirements when driving 4-ohm loads, as well as easing consumer concerns about driving low impedance loads. These switches step down voltage feed to the power sections which can limit dynamics and overall fidelity. My advice is to keep the switch set to "Minimum 8-ohms" regardless of the impedance of your speakers and ensure proper ventilation of the Receiver. Using the 6 ohm setting will reduce power output to your speakers about 15-20% and thus cause higher frequency of amplifier clipping if driven too hard which can damage your speakers.


I've tried myself and it did sound better in 8 ohm. The unit will get al little hotter but with proper ventilation it is harmless.

 

[cyberbri]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/0


You are correct on all points. Extremely minor clarification on your description in question 2: the 60Hz signal would be sent to your left speaker but not necessarily "played out" of that speaker. If the speaker can't go low enough, it won't play back the 60Hz signal (hence the reason for using crossover filters).


Sanjay

I will just add:


Speakers set to Small, crossover at 80Hz...

60Hz signal in the left channel gets sent to the sub, but also to the left channel at a lower level than the original signal. This is because crossovers aren't brick walls - they are "slopes." The slope may be 12dB per octave, or steeper at 24dB per octave. That means that at the next octave from 80Hz, which would be 40Hz, the signal is decreased by either 12dB or 24dB. So the 60Hz signal would still be played by the left channel, but it would be quieter than full volume. Same goes for the sub and its slope. So it's still playing way past the xo point - at whatever slope per octave (next from 80hz would be 160Hz).


So if you set the xo to 60hz or 40Hz, the speaker is still trying to play at pretty high volumes way below that point, and that load still pushes the receiver. Whatever produces the best blend between the speakers and sub is best, but the sub can reproduce the sub-100hz frequencies much better and with more authority than most speakers, and those are also the hardest to drive for amplifiers.



This overlap is why it is important to set the speaker and subwoofer distance settings, plus find the phase setting on the sub that produces the flattest response. Phase isn't 100% for all frequencies, so at 0 degrees on the sub, you could have a few dips from cancellation at lower frequencies, but a boost in some higher frequencies above the xo point. Switch it to 180 degrees and you get different results in the overlapping region. So testing the frequency response and overall output (ie., with an SPL meter and Avia) is crucial to get the best settings and performance.

 

[lovingdvd]

cyberbri - excellent points, thanks so much for adding that as the slope of the roll-off is important to consider.