AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi everyone, this is one of my first posts so please forgive me in advance if I am leaving out any important info.
The story: Refinishing my basement and want to put in a projector & screen with a 5.1 setup, however due to the setup of the room it is impossible to put anything but angled in-ceiling speakers. I have went to 2 different audio stores near my Mississauga Ont home, and received 2 different quotes on different speaker systems. Below are the options I am presented with. I am still learning about speakers etc, however I am not sure if some of the features are just 'fluff' to justify an expensive price point so I need to know what the better option is :)

Option 1:
IN CEILING 15 DEGREE ANGLED SPEAKERS:
Angstrom AV-6.15 LCRS: http://www.angstromloudspeakers.com/detail.php?id=1597&top_cat_id=56&sub_cat_id=149

Speakers will be enclosed in Angstrom PDA-8C Acoustic domes with pre-construct brackets (picture below as I do not have a link)

SUBWOOFER:
DefTech Supercube 2000: http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/definitivetechnology-definitive-technology-supercube-2000-7-5-650-watt-subwoofer-piano-black-dt-supercube2000/10275542.aspx?cmp=pla-home_audio__speakers

Option 2
IN CEILING 30 DEGREE ANGLED SPEAKERS:
Paradigm H65A: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=inceiling/model=ci-home-h65-a/page=overview

Speakers will be enclosed in Dynabox: http://www.dynamat.com/architectural-home/architectural-home-dynabox/

SUBWOOFER:
Paradigm DSP 3200: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=subwoofer/model=dsp-3200/page=overview

Right now I am leaning towards Option 2 as I know of Paradigm brand and the subwoofer in Option 2 is the same brand as the speakers (not sure if that matters?!?). However since I still have to purchase all other items (receiver, projector, screen, wires, etc), option 1 being $800 cheaper makes it a bit more attractive. That being said Option 1 is cheaper mainly because the Dynabox housing in option 2' is $179 more for each unit ($219 vs $40). Are there any other inexpensive options for housing the Paradigm speakers? If I could spend $100 less on the housing units for Paradigm that would be great as it would make my decision earlier!

Although I have heard a lot of good things about Paradigm, I cannot find any reviews on Angstrom. If anyone knows/has/heard about the Anstrom in ceiling speakers please share.

Thanks!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,665 Posts
Option 2, for the 30 degree angle. How far away from the speakers will you be sitting? How high is the ceiling? Ask the installer to figure out how far off axis you will be sitting and what the frequency response looks like at that angle. You could be missing a significant portion of the sound.

That said, is there really NO other alternative to in-ceiling speakers for the front 3? Lots of stories here from folks who installed their fronts in-ceiling with poor results. If you can go with in-walls for the front, that would be a far better solution. If you can go on-wall speakers that would be even better.

It's your choice and your money, but nobody here recommends in-ceiling speakers for the front stage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Option 2, for the 30 degree angle. How far away from the speakers will you be sitting? How high is the ceiling? Ask the installer to figure out how far off axis you will be sitting and what the frequency response looks like at that angle. You could be missing a significant portion of the sound.

That said, is there really NO other alternative to in-ceiling speakers for the front 3? Lots of stories here from folks who installed their fronts in-ceiling with poor results. If you can go with in-walls for the front, that would be a far better solution. If you can go on-wall speakers that would be even better.

It's your choice and your money, but nobody here recommends in-ceiling speakers for the front stage.
Thanks for your response.
The basement ceiling height is 8ft I believe (I am not home so cannot verify)
I would much prefer in wall speakers however I cannot for the following reasons:
-the wall I am putting the projector screen on is 124" wide, and the screen itself will be 106". If I put wall speakers I wouldnt think they would be installed at the far ends of the wall plus they will most likely end up installed behind the screen and I heard it is not optimal to do that.
-there is a door almost right in the middle of that wall behind the screen area

The setup is attached below.
The placement of the screen and speakers is not exact but rough estimate. The screen will be close the back wall (maybe a foot away). The couch will eventually be an "L" shape, but it will start from roughly 5 feet from the speakers for the closest person up to ~13ft from the bar stools behind the couch.

So you suggest Paradigm because the 30 degree angle will be directed downwards more towards listeners ears? Or is that why you asked about ceiling height and viewer distance?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,208 Posts
The screen will be close the back wall (maybe a foot away).
If there is a 1 foot space between the screen and the wall, you could probably fit some sealed or front-ported speakers in there---I'd recommend getting an AT (acoustically transparent) screen in that case.

The end result would be far, far better than in-ceiling speakers for your fronts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RayGuy

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If there is a 1 foot space between the screen and the wall, you could probably fit some sealed or front-ported speakers in there---I'd recommend getting an AT (acoustically transparent) screen in that case.

The end result would be far, far better than in-ceiling speakers for your fronts.
Thanks. I thought an AT screen would affect the viewing aspect of the experience? Even though this would solve the 2 side speakers,there is still a door behind the screen almost in the middle of the wall (where the centre speaker would go normally)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If there is a 1 foot space between the screen and the wall, you could probably fit some sealed or front-ported speakers in there---I'd recommend getting an AT (acoustically transparent) screen in that case.

The end result would be far, far better than in-ceiling speakers for your fronts.
Here is a quick drawing of the actual wall the projector will be infront of. Having great sound is one thing, but there has to be a balance with what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye. If I am doing 7.1 I dont have an option to do inwall or wall mounted speakers in the back 4 because this is beside an open concept kitchen. Therefore I was going to do all in-ceiling in the front which would also match the back 4 speakers.
Even if I could get away with 2 side speakers in wall or wall mounted for the front I am still stuck with no options for the center speaker. There is only about 7-8" of space above the door to the ceiling and there is probably a stud preventing me from centering it above the door. Unless someone can think of another solution, like 2 side speakers that eliminate the need for a centre speaker:
http://www.gibsonsv.com/products/view/-angstrom-loudspeakers-suono-600-sd

The angstrom suono600sd's are on Wall left and right spkrs with center channels built in.
All you need is 2 of them and you have to wire a center left and a center right and when they play together, the center sounds like it's coming from the center.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If there is a 1 foot space between the screen and the wall, you could probably fit some sealed or front-ported speakers in there---I'd recommend getting an AT (acoustically transparent) screen in that case.

The end result would be far, far better than in-ceiling speakers for your fronts.
Sorry for the third quote, but when you say in-ceiling speakers are bad for the front, were you talking about the same 30 degree angled speakers I am looking at, or the down firing ceiling speakers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
Both angled and downfiring ceiling speakers are a poor choice and a last resort.

As mentioned before with a foot behind the screen, you would be best off getting an acoustically transparent screen and putting some nice Towers behind it. I highly recommend the XT 8f Revolution series from tannoy. Not only of the amazing speakers for the price, the port is front firing and the center Channel, well physically deceptively small, sounds amazing and is capable of being mounted in a way that directs the sound up, straight ahead, or downwards. This makes it possible two mounted above your screen pointing down towards the listening position.

Tannoy also makes some great wall / ceiling mount speakers 4 surrounds and or atmos duty.

Do yourself a favor and look up the tannoy, they might not be super popular around here but you're not going to find a better sounding speaker, with equal fit and finish anywhere near the price range of the tannoy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,665 Posts
Thanks for your response.
The basement ceiling height is 8ft I believe (I am not home so cannot verify)
I would much prefer in wall speakers however I cannot for the following reasons:
-the wall I am putting the projector screen on is 124" wide, and the screen itself will be 106". If I put wall speakers I wouldnt think they would be installed at the far ends of the wall plus they will most likely end up installed behind the screen and I heard it is not optimal to do that.
-there is a door almost right in the middle of that wall behind the screen area

The setup is attached below.
The placement of the screen and speakers is not exact but rough estimate. The screen will be close the back wall (maybe a foot away). The couch will eventually be an "L" shape, but it will start from roughly 5 feet from the speakers for the closest person up to ~13ft from the bar stools behind the couch.

So you suggest Paradigm because the 30 degree angle will be directed downwards more towards listeners ears? Or is that why you asked about ceiling height and viewer distance?
Yes. You want the speakers to be "aimed at you" with an error of less than 15 degrees for most speakers to perform their best. Some speakers perform better off-axis than others, and that is why I suggested you discuss this issue with the installer.

After reading more of your responses, I would go with a transparent screen, and three floor-standing (or bookshelf on stands) speakers for the front. You can move the center speaker when not in use (get some sliders) to facilitate using the door, or just move the door one way or the other to allow the center speaker to be placed permanently (allowing on-wall or in-wall placement). Having all three speakers at the same level will improve the sound quite a bit (having the center near the ceiling will be problematic as the sound pans from side to side, it will rise and fall, which can be disconcerting).

In addition, using on-wall or conventional speakers will have the advantage of being able to toe-in the L&R speakers, to better and more evenly cover the large seating area.

Lastly, be sure to consider coverage when installing your in-ceiling surround speakers ... same concepts apply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,208 Posts
Sorry for the third quote, but when you say in-ceiling speakers are bad for the front, were you talking about the same 30 degree angled speakers I am looking at, or the down firing ceiling speakers?
Mainly about the down-firing ceiling speakers.

The 30 degree angled speakers wouldn't be ideal, but they wouldn't be nearly as bad as in-ceilings for that critical front stage.
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,208 Posts
Here is a quick drawing of the actual wall the projector will be infront of. Having great sound is one thing, but there has to be a balance with what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye. If I am doing 7.1 I dont have an option to do inwall or wall mounted speakers in the back 4 because this is beside an open concept kitchen. Therefore I was going to do all in-ceiling in the front which would also match the back 4 speakers.
Even if I could get away with 2 side speakers in wall or wall mounted for the front I am still stuck with no options for the center speaker. There is only about 7-8" of space above the door to the ceiling and there is probably a stud preventing me from centering it above the door. Unless someone can think of another solution, like 2 side speakers that eliminate the need for a centre speaker:
http://www.gibsonsv.com/products/view/-angstrom-loudspeakers-suono-600-sd

The angstrom suono600sd's are on Wall left and right spkrs with center channels built in.
All you need is 2 of them and you have to wire a center left and a center right and when they play together, the center sounds like it's coming from the center.
Well, if your screen is 106" wide you could put floorstanding speakers behind it about 6-12" from the edges of the screen, which would leave you with no more than six feet separating them---in which case you may well be fine going without a center speaker if it's just going to be you and one other person watching movies, using a "phantom" center. A physical center would be more important if you anticipate having large viewing parties on a regular basis, because it would provide a larger sweet spot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, if your screen is 106" wide you could put floorstanding speakers behind it about 6-12" from the edges of the screen, which would leave you with no more than six feet separating them---in which case you may well be fine going without a center speaker if it's just going to be you and one other person watching movies, using a "phantom" center. A physical center would be more important if you anticipate having large viewing parties on a regular basis, because it would provide a larger sweet spot.
Gotcha! I may actually go with a larger screen because it is only $50 more to bump up to 120" and it will still fit in the space. Therefore I will have virtually a few inches of space on either side of the screen.

The AT screens are almost triple the price as the one I am looking at, and because I am building this from scratch (I have to buy EVERYTHING) I would rather not go that route.

I was going to build a 7" tall valance to go in front of the screen to hide the screen's housing. If I placed 2 wall mount speakers on the valance as my left and right and went with 30 degree angled in ceiling speaker for the centre, would that work?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I would go with a transparent screen, and three floor-standing (or bookshelf on stands) speakers for the front. You can move the center speaker when not in use (get some sliders) to facilitate using the door, or just move the door one way or the other to allow the center speaker to be placed permanently (allowing on-wall or in-wall placement).
RayGuy I can't move the door, as it is going into the Cold Room and is an extra thick wall. I also am not going to spend almost 3x more on the AT screen because I am buying everything else and my budget is limited as it is. My other post I asked about using in-ceiling angled just for the centre and putting 2 wall mounted speakers on the valance for my left and right. Thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,208 Posts
I was going to build a 7" tall valance to go in front of the screen to hide the screen's housing. If I placed 2 wall mount speakers on the valance as my left and right and went with 30 degree angled in ceiling speaker for the centre, would that work?
That's a great idea...you'd get unobstructed sound and the speakers would also be a little bit closer to you...but you might as well use an identical wall mount speaker for your center.

These would be worth considering...they are small and light and in sealed cabinets, thus ideal for wall mounting, with dual 4" woofers and an excellent 1" tweeter so you'll get very nice clear mids and highs. It's too bad you already have your other speakers because they could easily be used all around, but they would be especially good for your front stage...they play a lot louder than their size.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/htm200/htm200.html

I have no idea how much your Angstrom speakers or other options cost in Canada, but even with international shipping and customs, these might still be very competitive price-wise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,665 Posts
RayGuy I can't move the door, as it is going into the Cold Room and is an extra thick wall. I also am not going to spend almost 3x more on the AT screen because I am buying everything else and my budget is limited as it is. My other post I asked about using in-ceiling angled just for the centre and putting 2 wall mounted speakers on the valance for my left and right. Thoughts?
I'm not a big fan of that idea. You want to try to get the tweeters of all three speakers as close vertically, as possible.

With that thought in mind, would it be possible for you to have the center speaker just under the middle of the screen (on a short, movable stand, for instance)? This might decrease the disparity in height by a foot or two and may improve your overall sound quality. It would also remove the need/expense of installing in the ceiling. Not to mention, you could use the same speaker across the front, which would present a more integrated sound field.

Just a thought to consider.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm not a big fan of that idea. You want to try to get the tweeters of all three speakers as close vertically, as possible.

With that thought in mind, would it be possible for you to have the center speaker just under the middle of the screen (on a short, movable stand, for instance)?
I agree it wouldn't be a good idea to mix my front 3, I should keep them the same.
I really don't want to have a centre speaker on a movable stand...I thought about it from the beginning but I dont want to have anything on the floor when I have my nieces and nephews over. I do appreciate the suggestion though, this is why I came to the forum!:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,665 Posts
I agree it wouldn't be a good idea to mix my front 3, I should keep them the same.
I really don't want to have a centre speaker on a movable stand...I thought about it from the beginning but I dont want to have anything on the floor when I have my nieces and nephews over. I do appreciate the suggestion though, this is why I came to the forum!:)
One more thought. Perhaps you could use an articulating arm (as used for many wall mounted TVs) to pull the speaker out for use, then tuck it away against the wall when done? Floor is kept clean and speaker is kept up against the wall and out of the way of the kids. For aesthetic reasons, you could even paint it to match the wall color.

One last thought ... phantom center. Not the best solution for your situation due to the wide seating area, but if you went with a speaker that has a wide dispersion pattern, like Golden Ear or Chane, you might be able to pull it off. Too much separation between the speakers would probably defeat the center channel effect, so I would experiment with distances before committing to a particular screen size...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,208 Posts
One last thought ... phantom center. Not the best solution for your situation due to the wide seating area, but if you went with a speaker that has a wide dispersion pattern, like Golden Ear or Chane, you might be able to pull it off. Too much separation between the speakers would probably defeat the center channel effect, so I would experiment with distances before committing to a particular screen size...
Yep, and the Chane A3 is currently just $510 shipped per pair on Massdrop right now, sweet price!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Option 2, for the 30 degree angle.
That said, is there really NO other alternative to in-ceiling speakers for the front 3?
No alternative so I decided to go with 3 LCR angled speakers but decided to go up to 8" CI Pro P80-A instead of 6.5": http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=inceiling/model=ci-pro-p80-a/page=overview

Now for my back 2 speakers, assuming I am going with 5.1...should I go with angled speakers or flat? I went to 4 different AV stores and 2 said flat and 2 said angled!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,665 Posts
No alternative so I decided to go with 3 LCR angled speakers but decided to go up to 8" CI Pro P80-A instead of 6.5": http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=inceiling/model=ci-pro-p80-a/page=overview

Now for my back 2 speakers, assuming I am going with 5.1...should I go with angled speakers or flat? I went to 4 different AV stores and 2 said flat and 2 said angled!
Given that layout, you can probably only cover the area of the screen-facing couch with surround sound, so, you can probably get away with flat, if they are close enough to cover both seats. You will need to understand the dispersion characteristics of the frequency response of the speaker and calculate their coverage area from the ceiling to each side of the couch. If you cannot cover the entire area, then the angled speakers are warranted.

I understand your dilemma, ceiling speakers are a compromise you are willing to make in order to fulfill other important criteria. Still, be careful in designing the layout of the speakers. You will want to create the largest coverage area in the room without sounding like three separate speakers. Do experiment with the speaker positions before cutting the holes. You would be surprise what as little as 6" can do to the sound you hear.

Good luck with the install and be sure to report back with your objective opinion of the results.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top